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DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:33
  Old Post 17-01-2004 20:13 Visit DanS's homepage!
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Well, this thread has morphed into something that I didn't intend -- a thread concerning whether or not France should follow through on this policy.

Anyway, I guess while we're at it , the BBC brought up the question of what the Sikhs are going to do. Are they not going to be able to wear their turbans?

Last edited by DanS on 17-01-2004 at 20:19

Pax is offline Pax
Chieftain

Feb 2003
time: 05:33
  Old Post 17-01-2004 21:43
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Most Arab states are Muslim states and intolerant. Not multi cultural. France at some point has depicted herself as multicultural and tolerant. If this is true then religous freedon should be allowed. The case is that France like most European States is Christian oriented with pretense at accepting other races and religions. This law effects not only Muslims but other non-christians.
If there is a problem with women being raped or beaten then that should be addressed either with laws in place or new laws to protect women.
We need not have laws that are designed to make others lose their cultural identity. To be more French, more American. We need to accept the differences in eachother and learn to work together no matter what race, creed, or religion.

Tamerlin is offline Tamerlin
King
Toulouse (South-western France)
Apr 2002
time: 06:33
  Old Post 17-01-2004 22:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Sorry Tamerlin.

I did not intend to be anti-French.


No problem!

quote:
My concern is that you cannot see the shoe being on the other foot. Suppose the religious people who feel oppressed come into power again. Would they not be justified in restoring all the religious symbolism erased by the atheists?


First they would have to win an election, which is highly unlikely, and then they would have to change the Constitution. Then, I don't think I would stay in a country, including mine, ruled by a religious power... whatever the god behind the said power.

quote:
So why must restoring religous expression imply deafness?


"Better to hear that than being deaf" is a French colloquialism, it is used when someone is saying something a bit "weird" ( ). It means that it is finally nothing if you compare it with more serious things. The French sentence is: "Mieux vaut entendre ça que d'être sourd".

CharlesBHoff is offline CharlesBHoff
Prince
el paso texas
May 2002
time: 05:33
  Old Post 20-01-2004 13:58
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quote:
Originally posted by skywalker


A $100,000,000 salary for a female businesswoman in an Islamic country?!


I said contact between two companies to do bussien together not hireing worker. The female bussienwoman will get than 5% bonus of 5 million dollar. There is no just thing as than employment contact anymore. I should know in all the wharehouse job I never have to sign one.

CharlesBHoff is offline CharlesBHoff
Prince
el paso texas
May 2002
time: 05:33
  Old Post 20-01-2004 14:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Pax Africanus
Most Arab states are Muslim states and intolerant. Not multi cultural. France at some point has depicted herself as multicultural and tolerant. If this is true then religous freedon should be allowed. The case is that France like most European States is Christian oriented with pretense at accepting other races and religions. This law effects not only Muslims but other non-christians.
If there is a problem with women being raped or beaten then that should be addressed either with laws in place or new laws to protect women.
We need not have laws that are designed to make others lose their cultural identity. To be more French, more American. We need to accept the differences in eachother and learn to work together no matter what race, creed, or religion.


Most Arab states are multi cultural and tolerant, they just donot like western with they attitude telling than what to do. When Ike was president the King of Saudi Arabia has than America Citz whip 50 times for manufactoring in Saudi Arabia alcohol for himself to drink. He was warming afew time by the Saudi government to not do so, he was warm by the America goverment to not do so as it is against Saudi Law which carry the death sentence. When he went to America government to complaint about how he was treated, he got no symathic from our Independence government back them not the Israel control vassal state we became. So you believe that Saudi Arabia was intolerant
for enforcement they laws. Now our Israel control puppet government would act entire different today we would be telling Saudi Arabia to not enforce they intolerant laws.

CharlesBHoff is offline CharlesBHoff
Prince
el paso texas
May 2002
time: 05:33
  Old Post 20-01-2004 14:21
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Guess you are going to have than hard time finding than nation that have no religion at all, all nations have religion even not beliveing in God is than religion.

Tamerlin is offline Tamerlin
King
Toulouse (South-western France)
Apr 2002
time: 06:33
  Old Post 20-01-2004 16:07
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quote:
Originally posted by CharlesBHoff
... even not beliveing in God is than religion.


Let me tell you I don't agree with this dubious theory.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:33
  Old Post 20-01-2004 20:33
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Tamerlin, if religion is defined as faith unsupported by evidence, a belief in a creator of the heavens and the earth as monothesim, what is believing that there is no creator?

MrFun is offline MrFun
King
of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:33
  Old Post 20-01-2004 20:36 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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It's called atheism Ned, and AFAIK, atheists do not claim to be adhering to any faith.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:33
  Old Post 20-01-2004 21:11
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MrFun, it depends on your definitions, does it not? How can anyone affirm that God does NOT exist without faith?

Tamerlin is offline Tamerlin
King
Toulouse (South-western France)
Apr 2002
time: 06:33
  Old Post 20-01-2004 21:55
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Religion is defined like this in Le Robert (a reference in the French language):

Religion: acknowledgement by the human being of a higher principle from which his destiny depends ; intellectual and moral behavior resulting from this acknowledgement.

Atheism can thus not be considered as a religion...

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
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Oct 1999
time: 21:33
  Old Post 20-01-2004 21:59
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Tamerlin, it all depends on how you define it. It appears that Charles and I define it differently that you do, not that your definition is incorrect.

Tamerlin is offline Tamerlin
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Toulouse (South-western France)
Apr 2002
time: 06:33
  Old Post 20-01-2004 22:05
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The problem is not what your definition is but what is the definition of religion.

Atheism can not be considered as a religion simply because the non existence of god can not be proved... it is way too easy.

What bothers me a lot is that most of the people who say that atheism is a religion are actually believers themselves as if it were their ultimate defense. Those that have the faith do not have to defend themselves of anything, they believe and that's all... at least that is enough for me.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
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Oct 1999
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  Old Post 20-01-2004 22:43
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Tamerlin, the only "rational" position is that there is no conclusive evidence one way or the other. If you begin to adopt positions that are not based on evidence, you are extending yourself into "faith."

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
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Sep 2001
time: 21:33
  Old Post 20-01-2004 22:58
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Dispite what a few female Uncle Tom's say the vial is just another way which men attempt to repress women. It is a truly barbaric & demeaning practice and I applaud the French for ending that repression.

CharlesBHoff is offline CharlesBHoff
Prince
el paso texas
May 2002
time: 05:33
  Old Post 21-01-2004 00:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
Dispite what a few female Uncle Tom's say the vial is just another way which men attempt to repress women. It is a truly barbaric & demeaning practice and I applaud the French for ending that repression.


If you try to tear than viel or than headscarf from than muslim woman in El Paso you are going get punch out by the woman. There are many million of muslim woman worldwide who wear the veil and headscarf because they want to an they wear it for Aliah(God).

Here is than outspoken Muslim woman the former Prime Minister of Pakistan twice.

Attachment: thumb.sge.oci29.131203102147.photo00.default-275x384.jpg
This has been downloaded 43 time(s).

CharlesBHoff is offline CharlesBHoff
Prince
el paso texas
May 2002
time: 05:33
  Old Post 21-01-2004 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Tamerlin
The problem is not what your definition is but what is the definition of religion.

Atheism can not be considered as a religion simply because the non existence of god can not be proved... it is way too easy.

What bothers me a lot is that most of the people who say that atheism is a religion are actually believers themselves as if it were their ultimate defense. Those that have the faith do not have to defend themselves of anything, they believe and that's all... at least that is enough for me.


Than Federal Court in America declare Atheism than religion in acase where some Atheist in a public square display at christmas time than sign attacking the Christian religion by saying that Christ never exsit at all.
The Court order the sign remove as than religion cannot display religish display in a public square Atheist cannot display they religish veiwpoint in a public square.

Tamerlin is offline Tamerlin
King
Toulouse (South-western France)
Apr 2002
time: 06:33
  Old Post 21-01-2004 00:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Tamerlin, the only "rational" position is that there is no conclusive evidence one way or the other. If you begin to adopt positions that are not based on evidence, you are extending yourself into "faith."


Let's be serious Ned... there is no conclusive evidence that spirits and spiritism are true, so not believing in spirits and spiritism is a religion.

If we follow your reasoning I can say that not believing in L. Ron Hubbard's scientology is a religion... not believing in ghosts is a religion... not believing in psychic powers is a religion... not believing that there are Vulcans and Klingons somewhere in the galaxy is a religion...

Tamerlin is offline Tamerlin
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Toulouse (South-western France)
Apr 2002
time: 06:33
  Old Post 21-01-2004 01:07
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quote:
Originally posted by CharlesBHoff

Than Federal Court in America declare Atheism than religion in acase where some Atheist in a public square display at christmas time than sign attacking the Christian religion by saying that Christ never exsit at all.
The Court order the sign remove as than religion cannot display religish display in a public square Atheist cannot display they religish veiwpoint in a public square.


As far as I am concerned I don't care a dime about the opinion of a court about what is a religion and what is not, whatever the country of the said court.

If you read again your post you will see that there is no evidence at all that the Federal Court is considering the atheists as members of a religious order, the decision seems to have more to do with the principles of equality and respect of the others than anything else.

I would really like to know why the believers are so hardly trying to convince themselves that atheists are also members of a religion... and why it seems so important for them.

It's really weird...

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:33
  Old Post 21-01-2004 02:12
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UPDATE - UPDATE - UPDATE

You French bashers will be delighted to hear the idiocy has risen to a whole new level today

Education minister Luc Ferry, in charge of the making of the law, has announced today his intention, not only to ban Muslim scarves, Jewish kippas ans Christian crosses, but also:
- Bandanas (casual headwear covering the whole hair; it is fashionable across the whole female youth)
- "Islamic beards"
- Sikh turbans
- something else, from a minor religion.

Besides, the linguistic headache continues.
The old law banned "ostentatoire" religious symbols. Chirac now wants to ban "ostensible" religious symbols. But the Parliament wants to ban [/i]"visible"[/i] religious symbols. However, in an attempt of conciliation, the Parliament accepts to ban "ostensiblement visible" religious symbols. Finally, the Minister decided to take the courageous decision to only ban religious symbols that are worn "ostensiblement"

[You'll find the words surprisingly close to each other. This is normal. I still fail to see the subtlety between all these words ]

Monk is offline Monk
Emperor
I don't think we're in Brønshøj anymore
Jan 1970
time: 06:33
  Old Post 21-01-2004 02:25 Visit Monk's homepage!
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Spiffor, a bandana, is that the thing worn by that gorgeous girl who sang "Tu es foutu"?

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:33
  Old Post 21-01-2004 03:08
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I have no idea what you are talking about, sorry

A bandana would be this:


You can easily understand why France bans it

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
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Oct 1999
time: 21:33
  Old Post 21-01-2004 04:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Tamerlin


Let's be serious Ned... there is no conclusive evidence that spirits and spiritism are true, so not believing in spirits and spiritism is a religion.

If we follow your reasoning I can say that not believing in L. Ron Hubbard's scientology is a religion... not believing in ghosts is a religion... not believing in psychic powers is a religion... not believing that there are Vulcans and Klingons somewhere in the galaxy is a religion...


Tamerlin, you seem to be missing the difference between not believing in something without evidence and affirming that something does not exist without evidence.

Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
Emperor
McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:33
  Old Post 21-01-2004 04:50
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"Mieux vaut entendre ça que d'être sourd".

Merci. Je comprends.

Leave it in French next time. Colloquialisms don't translate well.

Tamerlin is offline Tamerlin
King
Toulouse (South-western France)
Apr 2002
time: 06:33
  Old Post 21-01-2004 05:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned

Tamerlin, you seem to be missing the difference between not believing in something without evidence and affirming that something does not exist without evidence.


I have not missed the point, I was just pointing at the contradiction in the reasoning behind the "atheism is a religion" theory... though I would replace theory by nonsense as far as I am concerned.

Tamerlin is offline Tamerlin
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Toulouse (South-western France)
Apr 2002
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  Old Post 21-01-2004 05:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Leave it in French next time. Colloquialisms don't translate well.


OK!

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
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Oct 1999
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  Old Post 21-01-2004 05:30
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Perhaps we misunderstand one another. Atheism to me is the denial of the existence of God (or in the Hof example, Jesus Christ). Agnosticism is the lack of belief in God due to lack of evidence.

When Hof said that Atheism is a religion, he assumed you understood that he was talking about the brand of Atheism that denies the existence of God.

Ecthy is offline Ecthy
Emperor
Zhonghuà Rénmín Gònghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:33
  Old Post 21-01-2004 05:43
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Death to Ned!

Tamerlin is offline Tamerlin
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Toulouse (South-western France)
Apr 2002
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  Old Post 21-01-2004 07:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Perhaps we misunderstand one another. Atheism to me is the denial of the existence of God (or in the Hof example, Jesus Christ).


True, I don't believe in any god...

quote:
When Hof said that Atheism is a religion, he assumed you understood that he was talking about the brand of Atheism that denies the existence of God.


... and I don't think any god exists. I don't believe in any higher principle governing our destiny... and thus that can't be a religion.

As Jean-Paul Sartres wrote, "man is free and it is a burden to be free". As far as I am concerned this is a burden I am happy to carry on my shoulders.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:33
  Old Post 21-01-2004 10:10
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Tamerlin:

This is mostly a word's issue. The "atheists" in America are actively denying the existence of God, and basically believe in its inexistence. In France, the "athées" are generally much less strong in their convictions, and show a lack of belief, rather than a belief in nothing.

 
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