17-03-2004 22:51									#451
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It takes a real commitment to get the GL, but ErikM outlined the path. The method will work at any setting.

	18-03-2004 00:57									#452
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quote: Originally posted by ErikM Hi Drachen: Yes I researched Literature myself at something like 50-60% sci or whatever was necessary to ensure a healthy cash balance. In the end, It took me 21 turns. It is not a waste of money since AI never beelines to Literature before getting MapMaking, Philosophy, CoL etc. So you can sell it eventually. GL costs 160 shields to the AI and it is uncommon for any city in the Ancient/Medieval era to generate more than 20 shields per turn. So it still takes at least 8 turns for AI to build it. Once I was 6 turns away from completion, I sold Literature to Celts & Mongols for a total of 40gpt (Celts were in Monarchy and Mongols - in Republic already). So they wasted some shields trying to build GL as well. I traded for Masonry in 2390BC (it is in the log somewhere) and started a prebuild soon afterwards. Niagara Falls built two curragh and (iirc) two settlers before starting on a Palace. Maybe also a warrior. So in theory it should have been possible to build GL by 1000 BC (if I were to skip one of the settlers). To build an expensive wonder early, you need basically three things: (a) early second city. This is the reason I've built a settler before a granary in my capital. An ideal site would be on a river and should have a mixture of BGs and forests. (b) early Masonry to avoid bottlenecks. This is relatively easy with an Alphabet as a starting tech. (c) after you run out of space, have your settler pump to produce some workers to add to a Wonder city. If the Wonder city site is good enough, 1000BC 400-shield wonder is definitely possible.

Well, I may just have to join you and Vmxa1 on standard maps. I’ve been playing smaller maps mostly for the last year or two and I was only playing larger maps on Sid because I thought I had to to get the GL. I thought you couldn’t research literature in less than 50 turns, but I am sure glad I was wrong about that one as it is tedious taking over so many cities on large maps. Good luck with your game. I hope the invasion goes well for your mighty republic!

	18-03-2004 01:07									#453
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 That is probably the best I can do with it. I now believe I could never win with an island start. Taking down civs from that position has a small window. The AI will soon have many hundreds of units and be a nightmare to take down. I got the Germans because they had no Iron and were backward. This was due to them not having any contacts when I got to them. The other smaller civs were close to the big dog and got tech. If I had the ambition, I probably could beat down a few cities of China's and maybe get them to give me some tech. I maybe able to steal a bit. I may even be able to hold my land as the AI is poor at invasion. I just do not have the stomach for all the areial and ship bombardments that I will have to face. Russia will pull back in the lead in the end as they will get more and more units and have all the culture. Frankly I am tired of the endless up hill battle and having nothing. Maybe a pangea start could work, but I have felt all along it was the least doable. Maybe one of the master players will show us the way.

Don’t get discouraged Vmxa1. You’ve done some great work and I happen to think we’re closing in on Sid. I’m not going to go into it too much because my thinking about what will and won’t work on Sid has changed so often, but there seems to be some light at the end of the tunnel… although it wouldn’t surprise me if it turned out to be a locomotive with a picture of the science advisor on the front.

	18-03-2004 02:41									#454
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Well I am open to any reasonable ideas. Got any? The one thing I wish I had done differently was to really make an all out effort to get the GL. I got the tech first or close to it but did not make the commitment to get a wonder worthy city.
Also I don't think I had much forrest near the start location. I was not industrious either.

The AI does not go into any serious fighting when they are isolated. They will eliminate one another if on the same land mass. So none of them suffered lost units or cites from inter island invasions.

In fact I doubt they had many wars at all. Well they did with me, but even then they sent very little. Russia was a huge tech monster and never took back the island north of me. I only have a few pikes and knights. Later muskets. They could have used scores of Cossacks if they wanted to take it.

Anyway I need some reconsidering on this task. What I am doing is not working.

BTW I just realize the one volcano on my island never erupted?

	18-03-2004 03:48									#455
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1. GL is a must.
2. Continents is probably the best setting so that neither you nor AIs are too isolated. Look for a position in a corner of a large land mass. Think Spain, Italy, or Scandinavia on the real map.
3. Contacts ASAP.
4. After writing, try to ensure that AIs are fighting each other. The positive side of their XXX-large armies is that they do a lot of pillaging, which stiffles their growth. Wars also deny them the opportunity of trading for techs/luxuries.
5. GA after republic (or monarchy if you prefer).
6. Go after ironless AIs ASAP; get help from other AIs if necessary.
7. Prolong wars if necessary to milk for leaders.
8. Need 4-6 armies to dent stronger AIs with their own iron. Pillage their iron source at the first opportunity.
9. Try to draw AI forces into the open by leaving a couple of seemingly unprotected cities or so such. It is easier to destroy their hordes without them getting an additional defense bonus from cities.
10. I have not figured out yet how to do inter-continental invasions. Probably it is best to attack the weakest AI for the foothold, make peace for military access, and destroy cities of tough AIs.

	18-03-2004 04:38									#456
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quote: Originally posted by ErikM 1. GL is a must. 2. Continents is probably the best setting so that neither you nor AIs are too isolated. Look for a position in a corner of a large land mass. Think Spain, Italy, or Scandinavia on the real map. 3. Contacts ASAP. 4. After writing, try to ensure that AIs are fighting each other. The positive side of their XXX-large armies is that they do a lot of pillaging, which stiffles their growth. Wars also deny them the opportunity of trading for techs/luxuries.

Good points ErikM, still not enough, but you have to incorporate them.

1. I am now a believer

2. This is the killer. I made one good run at this setting, but I messed up on the culture. This was because one AI ran over all the others on that land mass.

Invading them would not be possible IMO. They will have thousands of troops by that time. May be railed as well.

3. yup

4. Now this is the hard thing to pull off. You will have little to offer them. Luxs is about it, maybe a resource. The thing is will they in fact fight hard? If on the same land mass, probably, if not...

	18-03-2004 04:50									#457
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quote: Originally posted by ErikM 5. GA after republic (or monarchy if you prefer).

5.

Now this is a topic I would like to hear more about. I found it very difficult to to switch at all, since I was not a religious civ.

What to switch to and when to do it and do you stay in the new form. If so for how long?

GA triggering is hard to avoid for civs that have an ancient UU or even an early middle age one. You will be hard press to not use that unit once you go on the attack.

I had mine in 1190BC IIRC, but I did have a lot of cities up and most tiles were mined.

To this end, I am now seeing Religious trait as a very strong aid.

	18-03-2004 04:57									#458
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quote: Originally posted by ErikM 6. Go after ironless AIs ASAP; get help from other AIs if necessary.

6. this was what allowed me to best the Germans, along with Berserks hitting from ships. In another game I was able to beat back the Mongols, as they did not have horses. Of course they fought foolishly as well. Germans did also, they would have 100 or more spears left after they countered and not use them. They would actually turn around if they had no units to protect? Even crappy spears would have won out if they sent 150 in one round.

The part I am not so sure of is the get help. Again I have nothing to offer and I am not sure I want them involved. I think that is the way to go on pangea or large land masses.

	18-03-2004 05:06									#459
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quote: Originally posted by ErikM 7. Prolong wars if necessary to milk for leaders. 8. Need 4-6 armies to dent stronger AIs with their own iron. Pillage their iron source at the first opportunity. 9. Try to draw AI forces into the open by leaving a couple of seemingly unprotected cities or so such. It is easier to destroy their hordes without them getting an additional defense bonus from cities.

7. that was not required for me as I got plenty.
8. I had five and a leader ready to be used. This is critical, you must have armies. If not you will suffer too many losses. They AI can make them up faster than you can.
9. Yes out in the open or other favorable terrain. I was trying to figure out why I could see the AI lose 20 or battles in a row, until I notice there was a river in front of the town. So my two armies with muskets just kicked the crap out of horses and archers.
The river was hard to see as it was part of a mountain.
I attacked spears after they moved, so they got no bonus at all. I was hitting them with elite knights and berserks, so they were mostly toast.

	18-03-2004 05:16									#460
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quote: Originally posted by ErikM 10. I have not figured out yet how to do inter-continental invasions. Probably it is best to attack the weakest AI for the foothold, make peace for military access, and destroy cities of tough AIs.

This is a big problem. You will not be able to take down your contient and invade at the same time. So you will have to deal with the other one much later.

By then they will have gotten it roaded and have massive numbers to toss at you. If no single AI has taken over the whole thing, then I would see an opening. If a KAI got the whole thing, I don't think it can be done. My goal in that game was to beat it to SS, but culture got in the way.

If at least one civs was still on the land, you could get an RoP and MPP with one of them. Then wait for war or try to get one going.

Now you can move all you can spare to the scene and try to get a good foot hold.
The AI will send large numbers to attack cities and that is your chance to whittle them down. The other civ will act foolishly and send out units to attack large stacks, instead of keeping them in the city to defend. So you may be able to grab more land, if you can defend it.

The attack is best done with an eye to getting any resources that you can hurt them with denial. Lux are an after thought as there will usualy be quite a few of a given type. Too many to try to get them all right away.

	18-03-2004 05:33									#461
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I think the crux of the continental map gambit is going to be the invasion. Can you get over the water with enough force to dominate/stop the AI before it blasts off or wins by diplomatic or culture? Keep us posted Erik.

	18-03-2004 16:17									#462
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ErikM and vmxa1,

Good advice and good stuff, as usual.
Now, what about city spacing? do you favour a tight one C-T-T-C or a 5-tiles one?

	18-03-2004 21:53									#463
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CxxC, but I am wondering if one should go ICS all the way. The corruption would be brutal, but the free support is a big factor.

If I was to do a pangea, I think I would try out CxC. You will be facing a lot of units in that scenario.

Everything is a trade off and I am not sure if any of it works at Sid.
Maybe you are the one to make it work MS.

	18-03-2004 22:12									#464
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quote: Originally posted by Mountain Sage Now, what about city spacing? do you favour a tight one C-T-T-C or a 5-tiles one?

I do a sort of semi-tight placement, alternating between CttC and CtttC. What I am looking for is 12 usable, productive tiles per city. Ie, mountains and deserts that cannot be worked due to lack of food do not count.

I also try to place coastal cities so that they have some usable land tiles, enough for 8-10 spt eventually. Because of that coastal sites usually end up at size 14-16.

I see no point in ICSing on Sid. Corruption is brutal, and having a bunch of pathetic 2-3spt producing cities will not make you any stronger. Once towns grow to cities, support is not an issue with the Republic.

	19-03-2004 14:29									#465
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Ok, both makes sense. I usually have a CxxC approach, but sometimes geography dictates the spacing. On a map, with the same landmass, I manage to pack twice as many cities as the AI, which should count for someting, or so I wish to believe.

I was also wondering an ICS strategy, but since I'm *training* on archipelago, I admit it would be much more effective on pangea.
However, I believe this is working if you have an Ancient Times UU. If you have a MA unit, as the Berserk, you need first of all a certain infrastructure (harbours and barracks at the minimum) and since those are expensive units, you need lots of productive tiles.

Speaking of infrastructure, I'm going for the barest minimum as in AU Total Eternal War: granary (core cities), barracks, harbours, marketplaces, some temples (on border cities to prevent cultural flipping), aqueducts, maybe some banks later. Period. No libraries or universities. Maybe also some cathedrals (depending on the capture of the Sistine).
Something else I realized is that you must take out the civ which has Leo. You must constantly upgrade your units asa you get the proper tech, and since you'll have lots of gold (via the GLib) and research to 0...

About governments: I will stay in Feudalism. Why? First of all, lesser war weariness, but above all you can pop-rush units. All my 2-3 sp cities' tiles produce the max of food. At size 6, you can crank out a Berserk, at size 9+ Cavalry, so at least they are less pathetic.
Any comments?

BT, I'm halfway through the MA and things are doing *moderately* well. But this was the easy part...

	19-03-2004 21:46									#466
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I think that is a sensible plan. Are you going to give us some AAR's soon?

I suspect that the key question is just exactly how much infrastructure is required.

	21-03-2004 08:26									#467
	Iroquois on the March - part VI Increase the size of your Attachments

Hiawatha sat on the top of a hill watching sunset over lake Cayuga and pondered his diplomatic options.

Sumerian threat was gone but security of Iroquois borders was far from assured.

As it happens so often, Zulu, former Iroquois brothers in arms in a war aginst Sumeria, were now royally pissed at Iroquois, thinking perhaps that they have not got their fair share of war spoils. Iroquois-Zulu trade agreement, which provided for supplies of Zulu incense in exchange for Iroquois expertise in representative governments, was about to expire and it was highly doubtful that fresh supplies can be renegotiated for any sort of reasonable price.

On the South, cold war aginst Aztecs turned decidedly hot with the acquisition of a common border with Aztecs at the former Sumerian city of Lagash. Unlike Zulu, Aztec troops posessed not only courage but also Iron and had all the latest advances in military technology (Feudalism and Engineering). Aztec Empire was largely spared from wars that raged on the Iroquois continent and was able to develop an intimidating military. All this military might was now converging towards Lagash. Iroquois scouts reported no less than 107 units in the direct vicinity of the city, with reinforcements on the way.

At the sight of all this firepower, some of the Iroquois top brass got demoralized and a few even argued for an immediate truce with the Aztecs. (Ok, more than just a few). As it was customary in the moments of great danger, it was decided to consult with the Higher Powers. The Great Shaman himself spent an entire night in his wigwam smoking grass and searching for celestial guidance. In the morning, he emerged completely exhausted, shouted "In vino veritas!" and fall on the ground, unconcious. What these words meant, was not entirely understood, but everybody agreed that it had something to do with Aztec supplies of wine. Hiawatha suggested that aforementioned supplies should be captured for the Iroquois Republic. This interpretation prevailed for the lack of alternatives, and so hostilities continued.

Finally, across the ocean, there was a mighty Celts empire. For the last millenium or so they were embroiled in a war against Mongols, slowly but surely gaining ground. Hiawatha was extremely concerned about the Celts since there was precious little he could do to limit their power. Hiawatha sighed, lit up his pipe, and opened the last report from the Iroquois embassy in Entremonte.

Report indicated that Celtic empire now comprised 29 provinces after capture of some Mongolian cities. Technologically, however, Celts have appeared to lose some ground, partially due to their bloated war budget an partially due to increased war weariness. Iroquois Embassador attached a sketch of the Celtic capital, indicating prevailing moods in the city:

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	21-03-2004 08:37									#468
	Iroquois on the March - part VI Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

So it was decided: Iroquois will support Mongols, and possibly fledging English, in their struggle against the Celts, while securing their own continent.

Now, back to Aztecs and their legions. It was fairly obvious that an immediate offense has to be ruled out, since Hiawatha's 30 or so mounted warriors would not be able to stop Aztec pikeman without prohibitive losses. On the brighter side, Iroquois assets have included two armies loaded with medieval infantry, that should be able to hold Aztec horseman at bay.

First objective on the Aztec front was elimination of Aztec offensive capability. To this end, Hiawatha have authorized an operation code-named "Mousetrap".

On even turns, Iroquois two armies, backed with trebuchets for artillery support, would park in front of Lagash. Since Aztecs were reluctant to engage Iroquois armies directly, their troops would move away, searching some other approach to the city:

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	21-03-2004 08:40									#469
	Iroquois on the March - part VI Got spare money?

And on odd turns, one of the armies would hide in Lagash. Seeing an opening, Aztec hordes would move towards Lagash, but due to speed differential, Aztec cavalry would run out from their defensive cover:

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	21-03-2004 09:09									#470
	Iroquois on the March - part VI Get a bigger avatar today!

Unprotected cavalry would then fall an easy prey to Iroquois mounted warriors.

To assault Aztec cities, however, mounted warriors were clearly unadequate, and so Hiawatha ordered his scientists to work on Chivalry with all possible haste.

It was expected that operation "Mousetrap" would allow Iroquois to hold Lagash with relatively light military commitment, and correspondingly some substantial forces would be available elsewhere. Well, Hiawatha does not pay his military premium wages so that they could stay idle.

With this in mind, Hiawatha started to think abou Zulus. There were plenty of reasons for a military campaign against them.

First, they had incense.
Second, they had the Great Lighthouse, which would be needed eventually to cross the ocean separating Iroquios from the Celts, safely.
Third, most of their armies have not returned home from the Sumerian campaign yet. In fact, plenty of Zulu troops stayed within the Iroquois territory, as Zulu never paid much attention to such diplomatic niceties as the sovereignity of Iroquois borders.

The only thing that worried Hiawatha was the possibility of Zulu alliance with Iroquois. Truth being said, Zulu troops were plentiful but technologically backwards and Hiawatha intended to keep it that way.

Of course, direct agression against Zulus would be unthinkable. Iroquois, peaceful people as they are, have never attacked anyone in the past. Except poor Ottomans, of course, but that does not count. In any case, now that Iroquois have representative government, it is important to appear to be a victim of foreign agression to placate pacifists at home, useless hippies as they may be.

Hiawatha sighed again, remembering his old Despotic days with some nostalgia, and started to write a letter to his foreign minister.

	21-03-2004 09:51									#471
	Iroquois on the March - part VI Put an end to popups!

Excerpts from The Iroquois Chronicles, 290BC-10AD

290 BC
(i) Ally with Zulu against Aztecs. Pay them Gems+Silks against alliance+44gold.
(ii) Demand tribute from Shaka until he gets mad.
(iii) Ask him to withdraw troops.
==> War with Zulus.
MWs destroy most of Zulus' expeditionary forces.

270 BC
Ngome captured.

250 BC
Advance/regroup

230BC
Agade captured (Zulu's incense city)
Discover Chivalry. Research set on Invention at 60% science.

210BC
Tugela captured.

190BC
Nothing much

170BC
Bapedi captured. Leader (#5)->army.
Golden Age ends. Was good while it lasted.

150BC
Leader (#6)->army; leader (#7)->marketplace in Sumer.
Mpondo captured.
Thought about using Leader#7 to rush Pentagon but decided against it, as
(i) there is no immediate need for 4-unit armies;
(ii) I won't be able to transport 4-unit armies to Celts before Industrialization;
(iii) Pentagon may be useful as a wonder prebuild.

130BC
Celts demand Chivalry. Request denied. War with the Celts. Thanks for war happiness, Celts
Leader (#8)->marketplace in Istanbul.
Sold Chivalry to English for 68g+19gpt.

// My mistake. I wanted to bribe them for a war against the Celts but did not want Celts to get some war happiness from the English declaration of war. What I am forgetting of course is that English will trade Chivalry to Celts, which will speed up Mongols' demise. Oh well.

110BC
Aztecs develop Invention.
Oil Springs completes Knight's Templar.

// It is not that I think too highly of KT, but Oil Springs used to produce ~25spt during my Golden Age. Not enough for a MW/turn and a huge waste for a MW in two turns. Thus, some cheap wonder was a better option. Crusaders are underwhelming individually, but as a part of the Army, they kick a**.

90BC
Leader (#9) -> army (iirc; coffee spill on my notes )
Zimbabwe destroyed.
// Poorly placed and I cannot spare a garrison to prevent culture flips.
Sold Engineering to English for an alliance against the Celts, 236g and 84gpt.
// They obviously got these 84gpt from Chivalry sale to the Celts. Oh well, at least we get the money.

70BC
Leader (#10)
Discover Invention. Research set to Gunpowder.

50BC:

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	21-03-2004 09:53									#472
	Iroquois on the March - part VI Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

30BC
Leader (#11) -> marketplace somewhere.

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	21-03-2004 10:03									#473
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Nice story ErikM, go get em. I am not palying much this week as I am an NCAA bball nut and get the package to see all the games.

It is the only sport I follow anymore.

	21-03-2004 10:03									#474
	Iroquois on the March - part VI Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

10 BC
Nothing much. Finished upgrading my military.

10AD
Ulundi captured.
Zulu are down to two tundra cities and I made peace with them as their destruction will only serve to increase my tech costs. I substantially outculture them by now, so I don't have to worry about culture flips much (which was the case with Sumeria).

Military advisor reports that we are at average strength against Aztecs. I used to keep track of Aztec units killed near Lagash but lost count in 90BC at 57 units. Still way to go. But they are reduced enough by now to undertake an offensive. Stay tuned

	21-03-2004 10:05									#475
	Iroquois Milennium Report Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Military:

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	21-03-2004 10:06									#476
	Iroquois Milennium Report Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Economy:

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	21-03-2004 10:07									#477
	Iroquois Milennium Report Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Demographics:

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	21-03-2004 10:08									#478
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[That's all for now]

	21-03-2004 10:18									#479
	Got spare money?

That is great work there Erik

Bloody fantasssstic

	21-03-2004 17:22									#480
	Got spare money?

Kudos Erik. A very impressive game and your reports are better than the novel I’m reading. It seems you’re doing your own research now and so how is that going? Do you have Education yet?

You built Leo’s on Sid...