08-03-2004 20:16									#361
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Go get em.

	08-03-2004 20:29									#362
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quote: Originally posted by Drachen Getting to this point in the game has become common for me with the GL strategy and I currently feel the GL gambit is stronger than the early war strategy. It’s what comes after that I have found to be problematic. Keeping up in tech through tech theft is pretty much a matter of luck but perhaps with a strong enough economy I’ll be able to recover from the failed theft attempts that are likely to occur. I hope to secure my island while in Republic and then switch to Democracy for its economic advantages. After that I’ll probably switch to Communism for its veteran spies and low war weariness for my inter-island invasions. I do miss having an isthmus connected to a larger land mass but I guess you don’t always get what you want and I’ll play this game out anyway. Being Religious means I’ll have had a total of six turns of anarchy and will have reaped the benefits of the best Governments for my situation at each stage of the game. The GL/Curragh strategy requires Alphabet at Sid so you must choose either Commercial or Seafaring. Multiple Government changes require Religious and I have already briefly pointed out why I feel that’s a strong advantage. War Elephants are powerful, come at just the right time, and don’t require resources. These are the reasons why I choose to play as India at Sid level which is somewhat ironic as I had never played as Gandhi at lower levels because I thought the traits/UU were lacking compared to other combinations. So I obviously disagree with some of the assessments of desirable traits previously posted. So the question becomes for Sid level games what strategy do you attempt, what tribe do you chose to play, and why?

Well I have not have early contacts to do any trading, even with Alpha starts and have not been able to get the GL either.
So I have been forced to do all my own research in most games. I got in a few trades in the current game. I only used stealing in one game so far as it is very expensive.

My take on switching govs is that I only see the point in going to communism. So I am no sold on Religion. Maybe that is a mistake.

If you do not get the GL, a middle age UU is of no value or very low as you will be hard pressed to get that far. I am in year 990AD and have not even got the prereq techs for Chiv.

Building knight type UU's is expensive, so you need lots of cities that are built up.

I am leaning towards going with a Seafaring trait next time, but I am not sure what trait to add to it. I am thinking that the best shot is to go with an all out attempt to build massive troops. I just do not see any builder strat working, without some extraordinary conditions.
But I am on the lookout for someone showing me the way.

	08-03-2004 20:57									#363
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Well I have not have early contacts to do any trading, even with Alpha starts and have not been able to get the GL either. I just do not see any builder strat working, without some extraordinary conditions. But I am on the lookout for someone showing me the way.

I found that the GL was hard to get at maps below large because the AI researches faster and gets to literature eventually and usually before the human. I really believe the GL gambit requires larger maps to be consistently successful. Start with Alphabet and research Writing followed by Literature. This will take 100 turns with most of the Literature research done by a Scientist. I’ve never been able to research these techs any faster on a large map. If you use the editor for map generation you’ll see that most large archipelago maps with 70% water will allow a two move Curragh to successfully explore and make contact with at least a few other tribes. I am able to do this consistently and so I think you’ve just had some bad luck with your maps at the settings I laid out. The Alphabet will get you the lower half of the first age techs if traded well. Thus you get your horses, iron, and palace pre-build at 40 to 60 turns into the game. Other than that I agree that 100% builder will be very difficult and you’ll note that I’m at war with the leading civ in my current game. Keep us posted on your game and good luck.

	08-03-2004 21:05									#364
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quote: Originally posted by Drachen I hope to secure my island while in Republic and then switch to Democracy for its economic advantages. After that I’ll probably switch to Communism for its veteran spies and low war weariness for my inter-island invasions. Being Religious means I’ll have had a total of six turns of anarchy and will have reaped the benefits of the best Governments for my situation at each stage of the game. The GL/Curragh strategy requires Alphabet at Sid so you must choose either Commercial or Seafaring. Multiple Government changes require Religious and I have already briefly pointed out why I feel that’s a strong advantage. War Elephants are powerful, come at just the right time, and don’t require resources. These are the reasons why I choose to play as India at Sid level which is somewhat ironic as I had never played as Gandhi at lower levels because I thought the traits/UU were lacking compared to other combinations. So I obviously disagree with some of the assessments of desirable traits previously posted. So the question becomes for Sid level games what strategy do you attempt, what tribe do you chose to play, and why?

Chieftess on CFC did some testing for income/production under differnt governments in this thread.
Based on this data, incomplete as they may be, it seems to me that republic is still superior to communism income-wise. [I have not tried Communism in C3C though so I'll refrain from further comments]. It is also clear from her table (and this is something that agrees with my experience) is that the difference between Rep and Dem is miniscule.

Thus, I don't really see a point in revolting more than once (to Republic).

I never really liked WEs because they are expensive. They are not very strong and they appear at a point in the game where 70 shields is a lot. That they don't require resources is a doble-edged sword, since you cannot do "disconnect iron-build horses-upgrade to knights" gambit. Building a serious force of them from scratch is likely to be difficult.

So I am unimressed by India overall although of course other factors (map, neighbours, resources) are in the end more important than civ traits. I have posted my ranking of civs somewhere above.

Looks like you are doing alright in your game Drachen. Who is this huge cyan-colored blob?

	08-03-2004 23:42									#365
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quote: Originally posted by Drachen I found that the GL was hard to get at maps below large because the AI researches faster and gets to literature eventually and usually before the human. I really believe the GL gambit requires larger maps to be consistently successful. Start with Alphabet and research writing followed by Literature. This will take 100 turns with most of the Literature research done by a Scientist. I’ve never been able to research these techs any faster on a large map. If you use the editor for map generation you’ll see that most large archipelago maps with 70% water will allow a two move Curragh to successfully explore and make contact with at least a few other tribes. I am able to do this consistently and so I think you’ve just had some bad luck with your maps at the settings I laid out. The Alphabet will get you the lower half of the first age techs if traded well. Thus you get your horses, iron, and palace pre-build at 40 to 60 turns into the game. Other than that I agree that 100% builder will be very difficult and you’ll note that I’m at war with the leading civ in my current game. Keep us posted on your game and good luck.

I am sure that the limited number of games I have palyed at Sid is too small to be meaningful.

That said, I am just not willing to put up with a huge map. Even a large is mor than I want. I will play one on an occassion, but it is hard.
I have not made the beeline for a GL attempt in most games, so for sure I cannot write it off. The killer is that you cannot expect to get any help from huts with tech. I am lucky if I get one tech in 2 games. I consider it a real break to get gold or even a map.
Of course I have not used expansion traits.

That for the morale support. It could get rough now that I am seeing frigate stacks. So far they have only bombarded one city and I sunk it with cats and a galley. Most stacks doing escorts will stay with the transporter.

I think the inability to find neighbors early was a killer and of course the land was only fair, due to the large amount of jungle and marsh. If I make it to Steam, I should be able to find coal with all the jungles and a fair number of hills amd mountains.

	08-03-2004 23:44									#366
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quote: Originally posted by ErikM Looks like you are doing alright in your game Drachen. Who is this huge cyan-colored blob?

Probably the Celts.

	08-03-2004 23:57									#367
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quote: Originally posted by ErikM Based on this data, incomplete as they may be, it seems to me that republic is still superior to communism income-wise. [I have not tried Communism in C3C though so I'll refrain from further comments]. It is also clear from her table (and this is something that agrees with my experience) is that the difference between Rep and Dem is miniscule.

I have not read the thread, but anything not using C3C is not much use for this subject.

REP vs Commie

Hurry Pay - Force
Corruption Nusiance - Communial
WW Low - None
Draft 1 - 2
MP 0 - 4
Support 1/3/4 vs 6/6/6

So I will ignore coruption as it is so dependant, but in a large island map, you must choose communial IMO.

Hurry is going to be so useful at Sid, save the cash for stealing.

WW you got to like none.

Draft bingo.

MP is a dual edge sword. You like to ability to offset the lack of luxs, but you will potentially miss being able to leave cities empty.
I have run into binds already, not being able to move troops that are not needed for defense to places that could use them.

If all others were etter, this one alone is enough to win the day. You will need massive troop counts to win and I doubt that Rep/Dem will be enough with corruption. You are not liekly to get metros to help with support. You can end up with lots of towns that should not have aquas and would not be useful for support counts in Rep/Dem.

Of course you have to get to this form. Best done by stealing.

	09-03-2004 00:01									#368
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BTW I was just wondering if you have been considering that a map wiht lots of water will yield more harbors or at least coastal towns.

This is what I worry about in that game. Civs that woul have been unable to have many coastl cities will now have lots and be able to build many more ships to send troops with.

I am now seeinng 12-18 ships off my coast at a single turn.
The horror, the horror.

	09-03-2004 04:29									#369
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1170 Japan give comm for the two civs for peace.
1180 traded lux for luxs and or tech and or gold with all 4 major civs. Now I have Knights.

1190 What Rome drops riflemen and calvs off after just making a lux deal with me???

It is getting very frustrating trying to build up enough to attack England with non stop attacks on me. I ned all my ships and cats to defend still.

	09-03-2004 04:34									#370
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I should not have continued on with this game when I seen the island I had. It would be fine for Emp or even Demi. All that marsh and jungle just cripplels you.

You have to spend 100's of worker turns to get it cleared. This is turns that should be improving you empires worked tiles.
To do it all, you need so many workers as to break you.

It is not just a question of those tiles not being useful themself, but the tiles that did not get mines, that should have.
In addition you have citizens that die from it.

	09-03-2004 04:43									#371
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told' ya

Whether it is possible to win on Sid is like asking whether you can drive at 50mph through downtown area in a rush hour: it's 10% driving skills and 90% traffic.

Or in other words if map looks bad it is really pointless to try.

	09-03-2004 07:12									#372
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I got my second GL and made the FP. I just busted two stacks of 4 ships. They ended their turn next to shore, both of them.
Cats in both sites and at least 5 galleys as well. Got me some satisfaction.

The problem is I did not know about the lay of the map until I had played a bit and I could not be sure.

	09-03-2004 09:16									#373
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Ok at the cossroads now. Crazy Romans, sigh up a buch of embargos on me and the pay me 100 gold for peace.

India ask for MPP and RoP, but declined. Maybe I should have, but I am concerned with RoP rape. There is no reason for them to have troops on my land, it is an island.

I toyed with the idea of signing up and declaring war on england.
Trade Mono for Rep with England and sold Lit for 50 gold to Zulu.

Build embassy with England and see they have about 40 units in the capitol. This is what I mean about crossroads. How will I invade them with that many units in one city?
They are mostly swords and MI.

	09-03-2004 09:16									#374
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Here is F8 and I have moved up:

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	09-03-2004 09:18									#375
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Units:

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	09-03-2004 09:22									#376
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If I go it will have to be soon, before they get better units. Don't know if thy have horses or saltpetter. No horse units in London.
They are probably working on GunPowder now. I think they have invention.

They have no money to get any allies, but I guess that does not mean much.

	09-03-2004 09:28									#377
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Here is the map that shows a good landing point on Nottingham, if it is not guarded. I would only need one turn at sea to get there. I would have to go with maybe 10 cats and 20 other units.
Something like 5 knights, 5 pikes and assorted others. I have 15 galleys.

Sort of a do or die. Other choice is to bail out. I will not be able to raise enough cash and cannot count on resources, if I could get the techs.

Wait I just looked to see if all my neighbrs are strong. I knew Celts, Japand and I thought India were it. I now see Zulu is not too far and they are weaker than anyone. I woould need at least two turns at sea.

	09-03-2004 09:29									#378
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Forgot the map:

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	09-03-2004 11:20									#379
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War broke out with the big boys. I have launched towards England.

I dropped an embassy with Rome and found it very ugly.
They have 78 troops in Rome. Mostly infantry. God knows how many they have altogether.

	09-03-2004 11:38									#380
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quote: Originally posted by ErikM Chieftess on CFC did some testing for income/production under differnt governments in this thread. Based on this data, incomplete as they may be, it seems to me that republic is still superior to communism income-wise. [I have not tried Communism in C3C though so I'll refrain from further comments]. It is also clear from her table (and this is something that agrees with my experience) is that the difference between Rep and Dem is miniscule. Thus, I don't really see a point in revolting more than once (to Republic).

Hi Erik;

I appreciate your response. As to the particulars of your post they are well thought out and defended as usual, but I’m convinced that at least 2 government changes are needed at Sid. It seems worthwhile to get out of Despotism relatively early and at Sid waiting for Democracy is probably a non-starter. So you choose between Republic, Feudalism, or Monarchy. I happen to like Republic but the others have their uses. If you plan to live by tech theft then maximizing income is crucial and in my experience Monarchy isn’t strong enough economically to keep you in the tech theft race. Populations in both Republic and Feudalism suffer from war weariness (WW) and that is their downfall when thinking about inter-island invasions at Sid because the numbers of troops that the AI hits you with will cripple your economy via WW in just a couple of turns. It seems to me that if you’re going to have big industrial age invasions then you need a Government with zero WW. Communism can’t match up economically with freer governments but they do have advantages that make up for it. One of the big advantages I see, other than zero WW, is veteran spies. Veteran spies mean your tech theft doesn’t fail as often and fewer failures is probably approximately equivalent to more income in regards to tech theft. The main point I’m making is that I don’t believe that staying in Republic at Sid is the best strategy and therefore the Religious trait becomes more attractive.

The potential value of a switch to Democracy after your second government is more difficult to quantify because there are so many variables. How much income do you lose while in anarchy and how quickly can you make it up afterwards? How much do you gain from the increased shield yield in your outer cities? Can you get a market or bank one turn earlier? Does the increased worker efficiency get your income and production up fast enough to make a significant difference compared with Republic? I don’t really know but it does seem likely that the design team tried to give Democracy advantages which would offset the WW and make switching sensible for builders. The main question seems to be how long it takes for those advantages to make up for the lost time in anarchy.

That being said, I’d still like to know what your preferred strategy is and why the tribe you choose to play is well suited to that gambit.

	09-03-2004 11:55									#381
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quote: Originally posted by ErikM I never really liked WEs because they are expensive. They are not very strong and they appear at a point in the game where 70 shields is a lot. That they don't require resources is a doble-edged sword, since you cannot do "disconnect iron-build horses-upgrade to knights" gambit. Building a serious force of them from scratch is likely to be difficult. Looks like you are doing alright in your game Drachen. Who is this huge cyan-colored blob?

Celts with Sumeria on top.

IMO if you like Knights then you’ll love War Elephants (WE). They cost the same as a Knight IIRC and that extra hit point along with retreat makes them very tough. As to the upgrade gambit I find that I build 5 to 10 horsemen before Chivalry and at 120 Gold per upgrade that’s about all I can afford to spend if I want to have enough money to steal my way into the tech race later. You build a few more as needed and you’ve got yourself an effective little force which I find adequate for securing my island and starting my Golden age.

	09-03-2004 12:16									#382
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Hey Vmxa1;

You seem to be playing the Early Warfare Gambit quite a bit but it doesn’t seem to be keeping you in the tech race. This is no criticism since I fall behind the AI every time as well but just not as early. You get more land. I get more tech. We both end up losing, but I’m thinking that being equal in tech at Steam power gives me a better shot at staying even through the Industrial age as I increase my empire. So I wonder how it is you hope to parlay your large land base into a means to keep the AI from winning by Diplomatic or Space Race?

	09-03-2004 21:19									#383
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quote: Originally posted by Drachen That being said, I’d still like to know what your preferred strategy is and why the tribe you choose to play is well suited to that gambit.

I have not quite decided yet on post-Education strategy Drachen. I would like to see how my game develops so far.

I have not played much since my last update. After finishing Ottomans I used my cash stockpile to rush some basic infrastructure. I am at war against Sumerians (this war never ended) but so far I was mostly holding their counteroffensive. Eliminating Ottomans unfortunately means that now I have a wide front against them. Luckily they throw most of their forces along a narrow corridor to Edirne, so once I have enough MWs I'll attack them elsewhere while playing defensively in the Edirne sector.

I was holding back MWs so far to let my cities grow a bit so they'll benefit more from the inevitable Golden age. I hope that Salamanca will be capable of producing MWs in one turn once in the Golden Age. I like MWs because they are cheap and good enough offensively. Resource scarcity in C3C means that they remain effective for a long time against ironless tribes.

If my war plans will be successful, I might be able to hold my own technologically by stimulating wars between other Civs. But I have to get to this stage first. If it turns out that I don't have enough income it would be theft-time

Did you try for any wonders apart from the GL Drachen? I'm contemplating whether I have a chance at Leo's with a pre-build. One disadvantage of using a GL is that I am at mercy of other civs tech-wise - I discover what they discover

As for tribes, well, it is a combination of traits and UUs. My preferrred traits are Sea+Sci (Byzantines) but I did not want to play them since my previous (Demi) game was with them. Dutch traits are great, but they (together with their UU) are more suitable for a builder-style play. Iroquois have decent traits and a good warmonger UU and I like them so far. The only drawback is that sci improvements are so damn expensive.

quote: War Elephants cost the same as a Knight IIRC and that extra hit point along with retreat makes them very tough.

I didn't know that WEs have an extra hit point. Is this a new feature of C3C?

Anyway, I'll post next installment as soon as I'll have enough progress to report.

Good luck at your game.

Cheers,
-- ErikM

	09-03-2004 22:25									#384
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quote: Originally posted by Drachen Hey Vmxa1; You seem to be playing the Early Warfare Gambit quite a bit but it doesn’t seem to be keeping you in the tech race. This is no criticism since I fall behind the AI every time as well but just not as early. You get more land. I get more tech. We both end up losing, but I’m thinking that being equal in tech at Steam power gives me a better shot at staying even through the Industrial age as I increase my empire. So I wonder how it is you hope to parlay your large land base into a means to keep the AI from winning by Diplomatic or Space Race?

I really have no offensive ability due to the isolation. I can't get to anyone. So I am not able to use any gambit so far, other than try to stay alive.

I have only once been able to get a start that let me get enough land to be in the running. That was snuffed because no ther AI was big enough to stop the culture race.

In this one there are a few equal sized civs, so culture will not be an issue. I am not sure about the space race. If I can get to some one, I could start to get in the tech race.

The problem is the axe could fall any time. I agree that it is important to get to parity in tech in the industrial age.

	09-03-2004 22:36									#385
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Drachen I was interested in the talk about gov switches. My main issue with it is that you need to get the tech first.

I would say that is you are non-rel you can switch only once.
I am leaning towards thinking that a switch to Monarchy for a REL civ is viable. Republic would need a very large empire and is not going to work for island maps.

If I get to Communism, I am free to do what I want.

	09-03-2004 22:41									#386
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quote: Originally posted by ErikM I didn't know that WEs have an extra hit point. Is this a new feature of C3C? -- ErikM

Yup.

	09-03-2004 22:43									#387
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Stole my first tech, Invention.
Trade Chiv + Theo + 10 gold for Gunpowder and I have two deposits.

	09-03-2004 23:46									#388
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quote: Originally posted by ErikM Did you try for any wonders apart from the GL Drachen? I'm contemplating whether I have a chance at Leo's with a pre-build. -- ErikM

Hey Erik;

The extra hit-point for WE is a new feature in C3C and a six hit-point Elite WE is a unit that’s not going to lose very often. How much fun do you think it’d be to grab a pike and try to kill an armored elephant on steroids?

I once got The Statue of Zeus but I never tried for Leo’s etc thinking it would just be too many shields to risk. I do think that a Scientific civ might have a shot at one of the great Middle age wonders since they’ll be first to Writing and Literature giving a little better chance at a SGL. I don’t know which one I’d build though.

I’ve got a question for you and Vmxa1. I’ve started a second game as Byzantines and the turf is worth fighting for, but I have little experience at early warfare at Sid. I’m going to post a couple of screen shots and would appreciate your input as to tactics and build order.

	09-03-2004 23:48									#389
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and...

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	10-03-2004 00:28									#390
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Drachen!

Yup, that's exactly the type of map I would be looking for. Good growth and good commerce.

I don't have much experience with Sid fighting - Iroquouis game is my first serious try although I restarted like 10 times before finding a "doable" map and played a couple of starts for 20-25 turns before deciding that it was hopeless.

I've won several games on Deity though in pre-C3C times with plentiful early warfare, so here is my $0.02:

1) Ultra-early wars - these are basically slave rides, ie you attack AI settlers if their escort does not look formiddable. You fight them with whatever is available, warriors, archers, chariots... You gotta judge if ultra-early wars are safe though. If AI is located 8-10 tiles away from your cities they cannot really hurt you much - when their hordes will make it to your undefended cities they'd be willing to talk peace and worst case scenario you'll give them all your gold for peace (usually it is not much, less than two slaves would cost). The benefit is that you get free workers while trimming AI at the same time and slow down their expansion.

2) Warrior->Sword upgrade - attack the weakest AI, preferrably those AIs that don't have iron connected yet. 8-10 upgraded swordsmen are usually enough to make some decent progress (on Deity at least)

3) Later on, I kinda go with the flow. If some AIs look weak, I'd try to take them out with swords, kniggets, or whatever is handy. I am unimpressed with generic Knights vs Pikeman odds, so if AIs look strong I'd try to switch to builder and hold off warfare until Cavalry. Of course you may be drawn into wars regardless. Then you simply have to judge the cost/benefit ratio of fighting a full-scale war vs. some limited defensive action.

Good luck, and keep us posted