10-03-2004 02:25									#391
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Drachen here are the few things I have encountered. First when I have layout like that I could not expcet to win a fight If it brokeout
in the first 50 or so turns. I have also been hurt by barbs. They can kill warriors and spears more often than not.

If you can get some distance from their capitol, you got a good shot at out playing them. They will have 18 starting units. If they do not fan out before you engage, you are doomed.

You cannot build temples instead of workers/settlers/troops when that close. You do not have the time.

I like to do the settler bop or worker grab from this spot, once I see them spread out a bit. You need to have a place to trap them.
This mean a hill near your city or on a path the AI selects. You need the defense. If you can get them to toss a few units at your defenses in small bunches, then you have a shot a hurting them.

If it goes fair, you get peace and trim back some of their units. This is not enough, if you cannot follow up. They will have too many cities by turn 12 or so.

Better yet, if you can go on a limited offense, once they slow down the attack. If you can raze or capture a city, you can get something for peace.

Here I dislike the trait you have for this situation. A UU like jav thrower or some strong early one can help you. You also need the free techs to lend you a leg up in combat, such as having archers.

	10-03-2004 02:29									#392
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The map you have is one that I have learn to not love so much. I have seen you guys get those early contacts and tech swaps, but it is very hard to not get eliminated if you have several civs very near.

Well maybe you can show us the way.

BTW I had a similar start and had several civs with stacks of 4-8 units all around me very early. I was losing units to barbs as the AI seemed to wait until I fought them before it kills them.

Once one declared on me, it was lights out.

	10-03-2004 04:36									#393
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Wars are all over the place and I am not even sure of who I am fighting. I grab two cities fom Celts and one from england on a tiny island.

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	10-03-2004 04:40									#394
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Now if this was a poker tourney, I could probably make the final table from here, but those big stacks will be a bugger.

	10-03-2004 13:50									#395
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Hmmm...now if I can just get some iron.

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	10-03-2004 22:56									#396
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It is 1670AD and I have given up. No one is at war with me, but I am not able to grab any more land.

England had over 40 units in Nottignham and called out many more. Zulu was probably the same

It looks like none of the wars lead to any real combat.

	11-03-2004 05:15									#397
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quote: Originally posted by ErikM Drachen! Yup, that's exactly the type of map I would be looking for. Good growth and good commerce. I don't have much experience with Sid fighting - Iroquouis game is my first serious try although I restarted like 10 times before finding a "doable" map and played a couple of starts for 20-25 turns before deciding that it was hopeless. I've won several games on Deity though in pre-C3C times with plentiful early warfare, so here is my $0.02: 1) Ultra-early wars - these are basically slave rides, ie you attack AI settlers if their escort does not look formiddable. You fight them with whatever is available, warriors, archers, chariots... You gotta judge if ultra-early wars are safe though. If AI is located 8-10 tiles away from your cities they cannot really hurt you much - when their hordes will make it to your undefended cities they'd be willing to talk peace and worst case scenario you'll give them all your gold for peace (usually it is not much, less than two slaves would cost). The benefit is that you get free workers while trimming AI at the same time and slow down their expansion. 2) Warrior->Sword upgrade - attack the weakest AI, preferrably those AIs that don't have iron connected yet. 8-10 upgraded swordsmen are usually enough to make some decent progress (on Deity at least) 3) Later on, I kinda go with the flow. If some AIs look weak, I'd try to take them out with swords, kniggets, or whatever is handy. I am unimpressed with generic Knights vs Pikeman odds, so if AIs look strong I'd try to switch to builder and hold off warfare until Cavalry. Of course you may be drawn into wars regardless. Then you simply have to judge the cost/benefit ratio of fighting a full-scale war vs. some limited defensive action. Good luck, and keep us posted

Hey Erik;

Thanks for the advice. I ended up going for a fake war to give myself time to Rex. My Byzantines and the Maya in Blue are on either side of the cyan Celts. I discovered writing on the next turn, declared war on the Maya, and brought the Celts into an alliance against them for about the next 50 turns. This seemed to keep both of them well occupied and I hope that their Golden Ages were wasted making units to send against one another. I haven’t been in a battle yet and I hope not to be because I don’t relish the idea of facing Gallic sword stacks with a few horsemen. If I end up with a bit of saltpeter I may bide my time until cavalry since I don’t have any Iron and the only supply on my island is one city away from the Celts capital.

	11-03-2004 05:24									#398
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 It is 1670AD and I have given up. No one is at war with me, but I am not able to grab any more land. England had over 40 units in Nottignham and called out many more. Zulu was probably the same It looks like none of the wars lead to any real combat.

Sorry about your game. Let us know when you're going to tilt the windmill again.

	11-03-2004 06:59									#399
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v: I am not a Sid-level player (yet!), but your map screams "MARINES!" at me.

	11-03-2004 08:19									#400
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus v: I am not a Sid-level player (yet!), but your map screams "MARINES!" at me.

My take is that you are not going to get to Marines. If you do, you have the game in hand anyway. You can see marines and that is why I gave up. It was only a matter of time.

Now I am trying the Poor mans marine and you guys. The Vikes.

	11-03-2004 08:33									#401
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quote: Originally posted by Drachen Sorry about your game. Let us know when you're going to tilt the windmill again.

One more shot with the Vikes on a std map. I drew an island with America. It was off to a bad start. I looked up and they had a city next to my capitol. We soon had a war and got them to give up 300 gold + IW.

I had went on an all archer build nearly from the start. No granary yet due to wars. They even cut the road to my cow.


Army is Archer Archer Spear so it kills anything it sees.

I took your tact and raced to Lit via Phil. US is making most of the wonders.

I got a second war when we both tried to settle in a location that I have autorazed. They had a left over unit in my land so I called them out. They bit and I took down the settler combo.

Must have killed 30 units so far by using traps and terrain. The 0 range is paying off. I can't make the second army as I do not have enough cities yet.


I have two GL's so far in this war. All contacts.

	11-03-2004 09:39									#402
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 My take is that you are not going to get to Marines. If you do, you have the game in hand anyway. You can see marines and that is why I gave up. It was only a matter of time. Now I am trying the Poor mans marine and you guys. The Vikes.

?? #1: C'mon, do you mean you fear AI Marines? You've got a good and defensible home continent. On the attack, do you not think you can deliver a meaningful Marine force before MIs?

?? #2: As you know, I haven't been around as much as I'd like, including for this thread. I had been planning EXACTLY that: Scandy on an archi map. Played right (to the level of art that Aeson demo'd with Jags), you can smack around much more advanced AI civs at will... upgrade from lowly Archers ferchrissakes, 2 (or more) attack advantage for almost an entire age, and a pretty easy GA to boot. Junk traits otherwise (well, not completely), but that ain't the point on Sid, is it.

Tell you what, v, I was gonna play one of the two demi games, but if you post a Sid start as Scandy I'll jump up and try that with you.

* Theseus mutters: WTF am I getting myself into?

	11-03-2004 11:05									#403
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus ?? #1: C'mon, do you mean you fear AI Marines? You've got a good and defensible home continent. On the attack, do you not think you can deliver a meaningful Marine force before MIs?

Way back I build an embassy with Rome (#2). They had 78 units in that city alone. Mostly infantry. I was at least a whole age behind in tech. Just got gunpowder and they probably had tanks.

Yes I could have make it hard to kill me, but soon they would be showing up with bombers and many many ships. It would have been tedious at best. In the end they would get culture win soon.

Well actuall Japan was in first place.

I was so far from getting marines and I would bet they had at least 1000 units, maybe 2,000.

Little England had a few hundred as best as I could tell.

	11-03-2004 11:12									#404
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Hi Vmxa1,

not to thrash a well riden horse, but your game play would make a fantastic story. I remember well your decision, it is just that alot of people read through the stories forum that may not come to this thread.

It is all good.

Paddy

	11-03-2004 11:17									#405
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus ?? #2: As you know, I haven't been around as much as I'd like, including for this thread. I had been planning EXACTLY that: Scandy on an archi map. Played right (to the level of art that Aeson demo'd with Jags), you can smack around much more advanced AI civs at will... upgrade from lowly Archers ferchrissakes, 2 (or more) attack advantage for almost an entire age, and a pretty easy GA to boot. Junk traits otherwise (well, not completely), but that ain't the point on Sid, is it. Tell you what, v, I was gonna play one of the two demi games, but if you post a Sid start as Scandy I'll jump up and try that with you. * Theseus mutters: WTF am I getting myself into?

First I would love to see you play one out. I have had a few good tries and several bad ones. It is hard to prevent a culture lose and even harder to not get whacked early.

Here is an example. Current game was actually going well, but America was right on top of me at the start.

I was able to have tech parity the whole ancient era and just lost the GL race (made Epic). Russia killed the Aztecs.
I was pinned after taking one city from America. They lost about 30 units to my 10 in two wars and paid me to end both.

They have now massed another stack of 26 and a backup one of 6 and look to be ready for more fighting. I have maybe 16 units in the capitol (1 army) and can probably beat them off.

It will be hard now to start alive or expand as they make units so fast. I have 6 cities and can get about 1 each turn. I know they can send at least 3 new ones each turn.

I cannot stop making troops lon enough to build a settler and if I did I could not hold it as that would thin out the line even more.

Anyway it has been some hard work to try to find a winning play.
If I could manage to stop the flow and take one city, I could push them back. Then as you say I think the Beserkers could be used to grab cities, but it get very hard later.

The numbers of troops the AI makes when islolated is frightening.

	11-03-2004 18:50									#406
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Tell you what, v, I was gonna play one of the two demi games, but if you post a Sid start as Scandy I'll jump up and try that with you. * Theseus mutters: WTF am I getting myself into?

Welcome aboard Theseus! I hope you will get started on some Sid games as we could use the help and it’s kinda fun really: almost like a different game.

	11-03-2004 18:56									#407
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 One more shot with the Vikes on a std map. I drew an island with America. It was off to a bad start. I looked up and they had a city next to my capitol. We soon had a war and got them to give up 300 gold + IW. I had went on an all archer build nearly from the start. No granary yet due to wars. They even cut the road to my cow. Army is Archer Archer Spear so it kills anything it sees. I took your tact and raced to Lit via Phil. US is making most of the wonders. I got a second war when we both tried to settle in a location that I have autorazed. They had a left over unit in my land so I called them out. They bit and I took down the settler combo. Must have killed 30 units so far by using traps and terrain. The 0 range is paying off. I can't make the second army as I do not have enough cities yet. I have two GL's so far in this war. All contacts.

I think Scandy could be a good civ at Sid archipelago. You might consider downloading Moonsinger’s Map Generating utility to help you find a good start. Good luck!

	12-03-2004 01:18									#408
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quote: Originally posted by Doc Culture flipping is to be sure an issue. Thing is, you spend so long building up an army that can make a dent in theirs that you are way way behind in culture. Flips back are one thing, but I too have seen native cities flip in a Deity game where I started close to the Romans.

One [rushed] early temple can keep you afloat culturally at Diety for a while, possibly immediately after you build your first settler. Then enough archers to make a dent in another civ. If you take 1/3 of his cities in the first war, you probably won't be close enough to the capital to worry about a culture flip. Then prepare for another attack in 20 turns. I'm currently playing with a mod that would make Sid even tougher, but maybe this will help you.

The other possibilty for winning at Sid that it gives you the ability to mod the program so you have more choices, even if it also causes the AI to make more mistakes.

	12-03-2004 02:35									#409
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Let me say that I do not need Sid to be any harder.

	12-03-2004 07:25									#410
	Iroquois on the March - part V Remove this text

We have left Hiawatha in 690BC, when he just put fledging Ottoman Empire out of their misery. However, it was still to0 early to smoke the Peace Pipe. We will remind our readers (if any ) that Iroquois were also at war with Sumerians for the last thousand years or so. Until now, everything was quiet on the Sumerian front, as Sumerians were mostly fighting Iroquois glorious allies, Zulus and recently deceased Ottomans. After Ottomans' defeat, however, Iroquois acquired a direct border with Sumerian Empire, and hordes of Enkidu Warriors started to pour into Iroquois lands.

Fortunately for Hiawatha, due to the nature of the terrain, Sumerians mostly tried to attack fair, even if completely corrupt, city of Edirne through a narrow pass through Southern Marshes and former Ottoman capital Istanbul through a treacherous mountain pass. Thus, Hiawatha ordered his brave swordsman to block these approaches, bombarding everything that moves nearby with captured Ottoman catapults. Meanwhile, Hiawatha started a crush program of basic military training in Iroquois corelands, using spare cash liberally to recruit fearsome Mounted Warriors in cities with barracks and to construct barracks in some of his more productive cities. Hiawatha counted on the old prophecy that foretold a time of great prosperity to happen in Iroquois lands once the first Mounted warrior defeats an enemy in battle.

Hiawatha was also mighty concerned about Iroquois cultural accomplishments, which so far were limited to the Great Library in Niagara Falls and a couple of temples rushed in Allegheny and Izmit to provide Iroquois with an access to Iron (as Iroquois shamans unanimously agreed that without aforementioned temples the only known Iron source will not be legally considered as belonging to Iroquois and mining it illegally would be unthinkable). Thus, whenever military situation permitted, Hiawatha generously paid outrageous overtime rates to construct a few libraries in record time. New libraries were mostly supplied with just two books: "Everything You Ever Wanted to Know about Horseback Riding but were Afraid to Ask" and "Sumerians - the Evil Empire".

Slowly - oh so slowly - Iroquois Mounted Forces gathered strength, but Sumerians were so many! Were it not for a favorable terrain and some help from valiant Zulus, Iroquois defenders would surely be overwhelmed:

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	12-03-2004 07:32									#411
	Iroquois on the March - part V Increase the size of your Attachments

Finally, in 570BC, Hiawatha decided that stars favor a counteroffensive. Just as foretold, as soon as one of Hiawatha's Mounted Braves won a combat against a sneaky Sumerian Archer, it was as if a great Manito himself blessed Iroquois workers with an immense energy. Crafts flourished, commerce increased, and Haiwatha proclaimed: "It's War Time!!!"

Best Iroquois cities were switched into a full-time military buildup:

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	12-03-2004 08:01									#412
	Iroquois on the March - part V Enter the AD-FREE zone

What follows are brief extracts from Hiawatha's Diaries:

570BC.
Golden Age starts! Salamanca is put on non-stop MW production (1MW/turn). Two more cities are capable of producing MWs every second term.

The Gem city of Bursa captured after a bloody assault that cost us several unupgraded swordsman [we forgot to mention that in 610BC Iroquois have learned Feaudalism from Sumerians and Aztecs using their Great Library]. On the brighter side, one of our elite swordsman produced a Great Leader, which was immediately used to build an army in just captured Bursa. Due to lack of capable reinforcements, an army was loaded with a single upgraded medieval infantry. Two slaves captured.

550BC.
Rest/fend off Sumerian counterstrikes/gather reinforcements in Bursa. Sold Feudalism to Celts for 36gpt. Celts are at war against Mongols. Zulus destroy one of Sumerian cities. Our settlers are sent to claim this land.

530BC.
Same old, same old. Sold Feudaulism to English for 6gpt+some petty cash.

510BC.
Sumerian forces counterattacking Bursa are decisively defeated. Troops advance on Kish. Our precious army is equipped with 3 Medieval Infantries. Meanwhile, our psychotic military advisor reports that, for the first time in Iroquois history, we are of "average strength" in comparison with Sumerians. Everybody else are still our superiors. Sold Republic to Aztecs for $112+3gpt.

490BC.
Assault on Kish - phase 1. Man they have a lot of Enkidu Warriors. Get another leader, which is saved for future use. Sumerian forces in the Edirne sector are finally cleared; we start a slow advance on Sumer.

470BC.
Kish falls with some help with Zulu. Captured 4 workers. We are strong vs. Sumerians. Zulus destroy another Sumerian city. Rush Heroic Epic in Kish.

We have a nice division of labor with Zulus: they do the fighting, and we capture Sumerian cities :

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	12-03-2004 08:14									#413
	Iroquois on the March - part V Full PM-box? Change here!

450BC
Troops rest. Aztecs demand 58g. Request denied and they declare war. We are sceptical about Aztec capabilities to wage an offensive war and we can use some war happiness . Army group East deploys near Sumer, reading for an assault. Bought 4 workers from Zulu for Currency.

430BC.
Sumer falls, and we capture The Oracle. Military advisor reports that we are "of average strength" vs. Zulus and Mongols, woo-hoo! Bought another worker from Zulu for Dyes.

410BC.
Rest/consolidate.

390BC.
Our troops advance on Sumerian capital, Ur. Army fortifies; mounted warriors start an assault using an army for cover. Killed 7 Enkidu warriors, lost one swordsman, one MI, and one MW. Another leader.

370BC.
Lost another MW to Sumerian counter-attack. They moved out three archers from Ur, idiots Assault on Ur continues, and finally...

	12-03-2004 08:19									#414
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Iroquois on the March - part V

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	12-03-2004 08:31									#415
	Iroquois on the March - part V Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ur contains the following:

The Pyramids;
The Temple of Artemis;
The Hanging Gardens;
Sun Tzu.

Rush Forbidden Palace in Ur.

Acquire Monotheism and Engineering from the GL.

Capture Atza-something from Aztecs (they built it on the spot of destroyed Sumerian city).

All in all, 370BC was a very good year

350BC.
Rest/consolidate. The outcome of Sumerian wars is no longer in doubt, but Sumerians still boldly land a couple of EWs in my core lands

330BC.
Advance on the last two Sumerian cities. Sold Monotheism to Mongols for 14gpt+11g, and to English for 9gpt+18g. (Celts don't have any money). English declare war on the Mongols. *sigh* Celts will eat them all alive. But at least they are not researching as they are constantly fighting.

Sumerian Last Stand:

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	12-03-2004 08:34									#416
	Iroquois on the March - part V Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

310 BC:
Capture Lagash (6 workers), Umma (2 workers). Got another leader.

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	12-03-2004 08:36									#417
	Iroquois on the March - part V Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

310 BC Victory Status:

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	12-03-2004 08:37									#418
	Iroquois on the March - part V Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

310 BC Powergraph:

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	12-03-2004 08:38									#419
	Iroquois on the March - part V Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

310 BC map:

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	12-03-2004 08:43									#420
	Iroquois on the March - part V Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

310 BC Economic Outlook:

Cities: 25
Workers: 24
Slaves: about 40

Military:
Warriors: 3
Archers: 4
Swordsman: 7
MIs: 8
MWs: 27
Trebuchet: 2
Cats: 4
Curragh: 2

Income: see screenshot.

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