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Drachen
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quote:
Originally posted by Aeson
I'd have to watch the AI play Sid AP, but my guess is that a lot of their builds (units) are already 1 turn, so halving that time won't help them in those cases at all.
Also the AI just love +2 food per turn, using your governor will show that well. Problem is that with AP on, Granary cities only need 5 food to grow, and the AI will end up wasting 1/6th of their food in cities with Granaries.
Finally, it's the AI's starting advantages that usually give it the difficult part of the difficulty level. AP decreases the worth of those starting advantages.
It still helps the AI, but AP will help the player a bit more in most cases. |
Good Morning Aeson. I think you make a number of valid points about AP. It would seem that if the AI is already getting an item in 1 turn that the acceleration effects would be wasted. I did mention the rounding effects but was thinking more in terms of shields and your point about the food bin seems valid. Both of these effects would tend to tilt the advantage towards the human player. I also mentioned the starting units and the change in relative gain but I’m not so sure how the balance sheet stacks up. If you go to war early then the relative AI unit advantage on standard production will be greater than on AP but as a practical matter at present I would probably resign any game at SID in which I was involved in an early war because it seems unlikely that my current bag of tricks would enable me to recover from that. I’m also not sure how AP would affect the cities the AI builds with its starting settlers. Wouldn’t it gain from producing even more settlers early with the ensuing exponential effects? As a counter to all of the above is the fact that the human advantage comes from better decisions regarding terraforming and defense. Longer production times will allow the human player to maximize those advantages. I will say that my initial impression is that the game is harder with AP turned on and I wonder what impressions others may have.
On a different note I was wondering what parameters may be changed in a game start without the Civ community thinking that the start is “cooked.”
I’m ready to take what I’ve learned from my posted game and attempt SID without any deviation from normal settings but I’m not quite sure what constitute normal settings. Can one change the AI attitude settings? What about Barbarians? Can you choose your opponents or will only random selection do?
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Drachen
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quote:
Originally posted by Enriquillo
My impression is that AP makes it a lot easier.
For instance, researching philosophy first on SID without AP is impossible IMHO.
but I'd have to play you're game a few more turns to be sure.
There are no rules, and we won't judge you whatever settings you use.
But I do feel AP is a bit like DM in RTS, which takes away most strategy from the game.
Ofcourse with AP that's not entirely the case, but it alters the game too much for my liking. Just a personal preference really, all I was saying you might have mentioned using AP , since all the other cooking you and I did was a lot more, shall we say, subtle  |
Hey Enriquillo, you probably read my reply to Aeson as regards AP and at this point I don’t have a clear idea of just how all the variables end up affecting human vis-à-vis AI. When I get a chance I’ll do some testing to see if my early game can be reprised without using AP. When I made my original post I was under the impression that it was a wash or perhaps favored the AI. However, if your assessment is correct that AP significantly aids the human player and disadvantages the AI then not reporting AP as a game setting would be a significant omission. I didn't report that I was using AP because I thought it was a non issue and it may be that that assumption was incorrect. So…perhaps there is expiation for sins of omission in Civ?
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Drachen
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quote:
Originally posted by Enriquillo
Don't quite follow you there I'm afraid, what would you like to know? |
Enriquillo: “My impression is that AP makes it a lot easier.
For instance, researching philosophy first on SID without AP is impossible IMHO.
but I'd have to play you're game a few more turns to be sure.”
And then
“muhaha, I'm taking the mickey out of Hammurabi
This game is starting to get interesting. I had to walk all the way to the southern tip of my continent for iron, and I have no saltpeter yet.
I'm building up medieval infantry and am preparing to beat the crap out of the nearest guy with saltpeter, hehe (island just north of me)...."
Drachen: It sounds like you’re playing out my posted 4000BC save but you haven’t said so anywhere that I could see so I just wanted to clarify that point. If it is I’d enjoy looking at a few game saves from crucial junctures so I can see how you’ve played the beast out.
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Drachen
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Easier...hmmm. I'm going to working on some normal production games and I'll see if I agree. Any chance of a save game?
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Enriquillo
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Holland
Nov 2001
time: 06:33
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I'll probably start one tomorrow with same settings, except no AP this time.
See how that compares.
I'm going to be looking for relative strength compared to the two AI's.
On regular settings it takes a lot longer to reach techparity and then surpass the AI and be on your way to a win.
Maybe on AP though you might be in for a nasty surprise IF the AI smartly uses AP to build a lot more military, which I doubt it does.
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Drachen
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quote:
Originally posted by Enriquillo
I'll probably start one tomorrow with same settings, except no AP this time.
See how that compares.
I'm going to be looking for relative strength compared to the two AI's.
On regular settings it takes a lot longer to reach techparity and then surpass the AI and be on your way to a win.
Maybe on AP though you might be in for a nasty surprise IF the AI smartly uses AP to build a lot more military, which I doubt it does. |
I’ve just finished about 20 different starts doing everything I could think of to get the Pyramids with the AP turned off and failed to get them every time. It seems that AP benefits the human player and I won’t be using it anymore in my SID attempts. Hmmm…I was hoping to use the Pyramids and Bach’s to get an Egyptian GA without a fight but it looks like it’s back to the drawing board for me.
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Capt Dizle
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I've a nice game going with extensive notes. I expect to win it. I'll see if I can cobble together a decent AAR. I have not compare mine to the civfanatics sucession game. It is taking a long time between turns.
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Drachen
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quote:
Originally posted by jimmytrick
I've a nice game going with extensive notes. I expect to win it. I'll see if I can cobble together a decent AAR. I have not compare mine to the civfanatics sucession game. It is taking a long time between turns. |
Good luck! I'm looking forward to your AAR.
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Drachen
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SID, Beta 1.15.
It’s 1750BC and I end my turn with writing due in 1. After all AI moves the science advisor appears, tells me we learned to write, and asks what I want to research next. I ask for the Big Picture and contact all other civs to verify that none had writing yet. They didn't and I didn't trade it to them since I wanted a head start on Literature. I chose Literature to research and closed the advisor screens. At that point, with no other AI moves occurring, every AI had Writing and other changes consistent with AI tech trading. That strikes me as odd but perhaps I don’t understand the tech queue and trade system?
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Drachen
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quote:
Originally posted by vmxa1
At one time they put out a fix that was to prevent the AI form trading due the players turn. Sounds very fishy, do you think one researched it or may stoled it? Did any have an embassy witrh you? I find it is easy to steal before espionage if you have the cash. Did you have a courthouse at the time? |
Theft...hmmm. With the situation I described the AI would have had to steal it during my turn and that seems odd as well. Since I was the first to writing I had no courthouses or embassies. Also, I’m not sure if I have a save game of it but I think this same thing happened another time I got writing first with Beta 1.15. IIRC that's twice in the 4 or 5 games I've gotten to writing and in some of those I wasn't the first to get it.
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Drachen
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quote:
Originally posted by vmxa1
Now I am wondering. I tend to not do much trading so I often will not even check after I get writing. Only if I want to trade, so I don't know if I had had this occur. Maybe worth posting in the bug thread. I am usin 1.15 as well. |
Yup...maybe I'll post it there if nobody comes up with an answer overnight. Thanks for your imput Vmxa1. I'm sure I'll be talkin to you again.
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Drachen
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quote:
Originally posted by Aeson
I don't think it's a bug. The AI research phase actually comes after yours.
So what probably happened is the AI's were all researching Writing themselves, possibly to get it the same turn or a little later. Then your research completes, you break into diplomacy during your research phase using the big picture, leave the big picture, and then the AI's research phase begins. They complete Writing (and it's going to be cheaper for them because you and any AI's before them have it) during that phase, then your production and their production phases. Only then does 'your turn' start. |
Thanks Aeson;
The system you describe seems to match my observations. I know one AI has contacted no one but me and could have researched Writing that turn. The other two AIs on this tiny map are in contact and it seems that one got Writing and traded it and about 44 gold for Mathematics. The advantage the AI has in research may mean that the boost they get from researching a previously discovered tech pushes them to finish the same turn more often on tiny map SID than would be the case on lower levels and/or larger maps. I think I'm going to move my attempts to larger maps and see if that helps.
Last edited by Drachen on 25-01-2004 at 02:34
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Drachen
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The setting: Beta 1.15, SID, Standard map, wet, warm, old, sedentary barbs, default rules, lowest aggression, Netherlands facing Inca, Maya, Ottomans, Chinese, Sumerians, and Celts. This is one less opponent than usual. It’s 720AD and I’m researching Chemistry. I thought I’d be able to trade the Ottomans Economics for something but somehow they got both that and Democracy last turn. The Sumerians got the Theory of Evolution about two turns ago and are well advanced along with the Chinese and Maya. The Celts and Inca are well behind on tech. My reputation is intact and I’m on good terms with all but the Inca who had a city, Ica, on my Southern border which I had to secure and so I finagled an Incan declaration of war and took it. I’m hoping for a GL from some low grade conflict with them and then I’ll probably move on the Celts so that I have an invasion path to China and Summeria. The problem I’m having is in trying to figure out how to prevent the tech leaders from winning space race or diplomacy before I’m strong enough to get to them.
So now what?
 Attachment: s1william of the dutch, 720 ad.zip
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).
Last edited by Drachen on 31-01-2004 at 00:15
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16-01-2004 16:07
Attachment: 
What is going on...? Alliances have slipped through my fingers, French troops have stormed my border garrisons, countries that would not enter into a MPP have turned into blood enemies, and I fear for the remains of my once all powerful, all mighty fleet...
Ok it is harder, and I feel I will not survive... but I'm loving the challenge... 
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