28-02-2004 12:11									#241
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I just had to cry a bit about how mean the barbs are and the huts on Sid.

Elite warriors getting killed by conscipt warriors, forget regulars winning.

Not one hut had any thing other than barbs. It is enough to make a grown man cry.

Alright I feel better now.

	28-02-2004 12:22									#242
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you have our understanding

	28-02-2004 17:20									#243
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Hell I don't even pop huts conventionally on Emperor, let alone Sid. I hope this gets changed a little........the early game just isn't the same when you have to go out of your way to avoid GOODIE huts.

	28-02-2004 19:31									#244
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I just had to cry a bit about how mean the barbs are and the huts on Sid. Elite warriors getting killed by conscipt warriors, forget regulars winning. Not one hut had any thing other than barbs. It is enough to make a grown man cry. Alright I feel better now.

Trying a Sid game now... It seems to me (based on a limited sample, of course) that if you found a sity so the hut falls into a city radius, the chance of getting barbs is lower. I've got two maps and (drums, please) a conscript warrior.

Popping a hut with the warrior guarantees barbarians, no doubt about it

Also, it seems to me that it is pretty much a requirement to play a civ that starts with Alphabet. Being the most expensive starting-level tech, Alphabet can be traded around even on Sid and you can remain semi-competitive in tech with a shot to the GreatLib. Without Alphabet, it seems impossible to trade for it and you'll slip hopelessly behind in tech.

	28-02-2004 20:52									#245
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I have noticed this on all levels. I don't know the exact probabilities by any means, but by experience am willing to state I agree there must be a difference with city popping.

	28-02-2004 21:33									#246
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If the hut is in any of the 8 squares immediately surrounding a city it can't contain barbs.

	28-02-2004 22:03									#247
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I suspected as such, but since I had seen no confirmation on the boards I usually escort settlers founding cities that pop huts just in case. Probably a good habit to get into. Also of course, cultural popping can generate barbs.

So that makes city popping the way to go. You still have to get in quick, since the AI can walk along, pop barbs, then leave you to clean up the mess.

	28-02-2004 23:06									#248
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Yes it is nasty having to walk past huts, unless you are on a hill for fear of being killed. I have several waiting for me to get a better unit to pop with. I think a horse will be good as it could at least fort up.

	28-02-2004 23:15									#249
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quote: Originally posted by ErikM Also, it seems to me that it is pretty much a requirement to play a civ that starts with Alphabet. Being the most expensive starting-level tech, Alphabet can be traded around even on Sid and you can remain semi-competitive in tech with a shot to the GreatLib. Without Alphabet, it seems impossible to trade for it and you'll slip hopelessly behind in tech.

I am not finding trading to be much of an option. I have either had bad luck in that the first civ I run into already has my techs or in this game, I have not run into anyone yet at all.

Since I am hearing of a bunch of great wondrs being completed, I doubt I will be in a position to trade a single tech.

I took a foolish shot at getting Phil, but I was not first (naturally).
This was a big mistake as I do not have the tech for horses or swords or even archers. I go on the basis that I will have time to build up defenses as if I do not have time I am dead anyway.

I have aschewed the shot at the GL. I figure it is not a real chance and I cannot afford to go for it and miss. If I were to go for it I would want Mason to have a palace for a prebuild. It is Masonary right? I could be wrong about the tech.

	28-02-2004 23:26									#250
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I was reading some of the "beyond sid" game yesterday and that is what made me want to see what the true relationship was to C3C.

IOW I was wondering how much of a difference the settings that Bamspeedy used are vs C3C Sid.

Some of the things that I was unsure of are cost upgrades, research, corruption. You can now have twice as many units in the game. Lethal bombardment.

I am going to have to go to the end of th thread to see if he mentions having played sid on C3C and how it compared.

He does not talk much about the way he ran the empire in the beginning. The new high cost of maint for units makes having massive troop counts very hard for most of the ancient forms of governent.

	29-02-2004 00:29									#251
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I am not finding trading to be much of an option. I have either had bad luck in that the first civ I run into already has my techs or in this game, I have not run into anyone yet at all.

I don't know, honestly, how it will work out. I played one very short game as Sumerians and it was completely hopeless. As you say everyone had all first level techs, I absolutely could not trade anything and Alphabet costs a small fortune. It was obvious that I don't have any hope of getting the Great Lib and I could not compete technologically either.

Buying techs is not an option. I didn't do any precise testing, but it looks like the asking price for any tech is about twice what it would cost you to research on your own. Ceremonial burial at 3 civ prices still costs something like 150 gold.

Sumerians, BTW, initially looked to me like a great civ but they have one devastating flaw: their 1/2/1 warrior replacement upgrades to pikeman, not to swords. They cannot build normal warriors so they cannot do warrior->swordsman gambit at all.

Then I restarted the same map as Iroquis and so far it looks much better. My neigbours are Ottomans, Zulu, Aztecs and Sumerians, so nobody had Alphabet. I've built a currah in my second city ASAP and was able to find everyone probably before they met each other. AI beelines to either Iron working, the Wheel, or Mysticism first. So roughly at turn#30 I traded around Alphabet and brokered things around for all first level techs + Mysticism + Iron Working. My plan is to try a Palace prebuild for a GL but even if I fail things are not hopeless - after all I only need Horseback Riding to start things rolling militarily.

Are you interested in trying it out for comparison? It's standard everything except sedentary barbs, map seed 325084309. I don't know if the map generator randomizes starting spots - it's a nice place with a river, a cow, and tobacco at the starting position. I can post a save if you are interested but I think you'll get the same spot for whatever civ you choose.

	29-02-2004 00:45									#252
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Post the save..........if I ever get around to a Sid game I may as well share my pain with you lot.

	29-02-2004 01:09									#253
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quote: I can post a save if you are interested but I think you'll get the same spot for whatever civ you choose.

I've seen the game place the human player in different spots even when the same seed was used to generate the world. I believe this occurred even when the AI civs were kept constant.

A screenshot of your starting location would be helpful. You'll also need to tell us which civs you selected as your opponents.


Dominae

	29-02-2004 01:14									#254
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My experience with the seed is limited, but I have seen it not come out with the same civs. It will have the same topography, I think.

I try to do my own research for the first tier and then is may be best to try to steal some, if you have contacts. I only had one civ at that juncture in my last run and this one I look to be isoloated.
I have gone around my island and I had nothing but ocean that I can see, so I have not decided what to do, but I will likely wait for gallies.

I was able to beat techs out of my neighbor in that game, but not enough to matter.

	29-02-2004 01:18									#255
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So I should have said it is easier to have a save posted. I just read Doms post and tat is about the way I see it. Seeds are better than nothing, but can be problematic.

You need to know as much about the settings as you can to get it right.

	29-02-2004 01:23									#256
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Starting position:

Attachment: iroquois.jpg
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	29-02-2004 01:30									#257
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Save: see attached.

Standard map, continents 70% water, normal, temperate, 4 billion, sedentary barbs, normal agressiveness, standard settings except "do not respawn AI players".

If you want to try another civ, map seed is 325084309. I used all random opponents. They turned out to be:
Zulu, Ottomans, Sumeria, Aztecs, England, Mongols, Celts.

Attachment: xiroquois_00.sav
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	29-02-2004 01:50									#258
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Looks like a good start. Now if you can find a lux nearby you you will have about as good of a shot as you can expect.

Do an update so we can see how it is going.

	29-02-2004 01:54									#259
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Oh BTW I was playing a game recently as the Iroquois to see what the MW was like, I could not recall any of my games with them from vanilla days.

Anyway it was at deity and by the time I had gotten HBR and built some MW's they were obsolete.

	29-02-2004 03:55									#260
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It is possible to compete in tech via trade. This is my current game at 730 BC, i.e., 88 turns into the game.

Attachment: 730bcscience.jpg
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	29-02-2004 04:15									#261
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quote: Originally posted by ErikM Starting position:

I guess we have to settle at the starting location, eh?

	29-02-2004 04:17									#262
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If you chose a commercial or seafaring nation and pop a few Curraghs from a coastal start then you can find several other nations after which you trade Alphabet for a lot of tech. I always go for the GL on Sid and usually get it. With a second round of tech trading after Education I usually end up in the top 1/3 of nations in tech and can maintain that position. The tricky part is trying to catch up to and surpass the leader which I haven’t been able to do yet as I’m usually too small. I guess I’m just gonna have to lay some smack on somebody pretty soon…if I live long enough to build a military.

Attachment: 730bc.jpg
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	29-02-2004 06:58									#263
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quote: Originally posted by Drachen It is possible to compete in tech via trade. This is my current game at 730 BC, i.e., 88 turns into the game.

I have a completely uncooked Byzantines Deity game (it was pre 1.12 so I never finished it) where I am ahead in the tech race just after the start of the second age (850BC). It is possible if you get good land and some luck with the AI research choices.

	29-02-2004 07:33									#264
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trading tech is nice if you can. I have not gotten enough games to be definitive. I can only say that my last two attempts have not allowed me any contacts outside of my land mass for a long time. Too many ocean tiles and I am not seafaring.

Given the tech rate the AI has, your window for trading is mighty small.

As far as the GL goes, I would expect that you need to start or research masonary right away to have a palace prebuild. Otherwise I don't like your chances. In fact I don't really like my chances even then.

	29-02-2004 07:58									#265
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike I have a completely uncooked Byzantines Deity game (it was pre 1.12 so I never finished it) where I am ahead in the tech race just after the start of the second age (850BC). It is possible if you get good land and some luck with the AI research choices.

I’m using HOF rules in all of my games now and this game is Sid, B1.15, warm, wet, old, no barbs, no expansionist or seafaring or commercial or Asian civs, default rules, lowest aggression, 8 opponents. I chose these settings to help me and hurt the AI.

It may well be that what I’m doing is an exploit…but if you start with Alphabet and your opponents don’t then you have a very good chance of trading it at 40 to 50 turns. The AI just doesn’t seem to get to it very often and even if one of them does the others don’t. You will get bronze, iron, pottery, and wheel almost every time and in my games the time to trade is when I’ve got a ripe pre-build in my capital ready for a granary.

	29-02-2004 08:21									#266
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What is the map size? The water amount? If you have 70 or 80% water and islands on large or huge map that is different than a std map with 60% water and contients or pangea.

The former will kill trading starting techs and if you don't trade those, you will not be trading any most likely. IOW after 60-80 turns the AI will have most of the 1st tier techs.

	29-02-2004 08:24									#267
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 trading tech is nice if you can. I have not gotten enough games to be definitive. I can only say that my last two attempts have not allowed me any contacts outside of my land mass for a long time. Too many ocean tiles and I am not seafaring.

I find either commercial or seafaring to be essential for Curraghs and the resulting early contact which allows you to trade your opening tech. It may be that Expansionist scouts could get you this contact but I think that the expansionist trait has been crippled at Sid. I tried 30-40 iterations of Sid hut popping and never got a superior gift such as a tech or settler. So why chose it as a trait?

[/QUOTE]As far as the GL goes, I would expect that you need to start or research masonary right away to have a palace prebuild. Otherwise I don't like your chances. In fact I don't really like my chances even then. [/QUOTE]

I used to think the same thing which is why I chose the French in my first attempts. Now I find that by 50 to 60 turns when I need to start my Palace pre-build I can trade for Masonry. I choose to research Writing at 50 turns followed by Literature at 50 turns which allows me get the GL and save gold for Embassies, upgrades and espionage. Up till now I’ve been trying to play builder through the whole game but my current thinking is that after the GL and Rex it’s time to let slip the dogs of war and listen to them howl.

	29-02-2004 08:26									#268
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About the idea of cooked or uncooked. I have not come to any conclusions yet.

Well obviously, add units as I have read some have done and adding improvements to the land such as luxs or resoures is cooking.

I am not convinced about things like barbs, aggression levels, number of civs and types of civs. IOW anything that can be elected at the setup screen.

I don't know what to make of these yet. I have not used any of the aggression levels, so I do not know what the impacts are, what helps and what hurts. I quess most would thing lowering helps, but I don't know.

Barbs, is another item. No barbs, no huts. Innie meenie minnie moe. No slaves for javs, so it does not help them much. I have never played without barbs, so I have no reference.

	29-02-2004 08:31									#269
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One of the things I was hopng to get input on was that very subject. So far nothing as been said by anyone else.

I would suspect that removing Ag/Sci/Comm/Sea civs would be helpful to the player. This is what Bamspeedy used in his game.
Well no Sea or Ag civs existed as it was a PTW game.

Using far below the std nuber of civs for the given map is probably an aid to the player, but I could be talked out of that position. This is because it could lead to a KAI much sooner, but I would ten to hurt the AI's tech race. This may not be a big factor, given the research bonus at Sid.

	29-02-2004 08:31									#270
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 What is the map size? The water amount? If you have 70 or 80% water and islands on large or huge map that is different than a std map with 60% water and contients or pangea. The former will kill trading starting techs and if you don't trade those, you will not be trading any most likely. IOW after 60-80 turns the AI will have most of the 1st tier techs.

Sorry…mental lapse. It’s a large archipelago map with 70% water. I am convinced that you don’t need to be seafaring to use Curraghs to meet you neighbors although that extra movement point for naval units could be very valuable for later invasions. Just depends on how lucky you are with the seed.