09-01-2004 15:09									#61
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Gotta go to bed myself.

You're still not getting it. God hates the action not the actors.

Boris should be proud.

Last edited by Ben Kenobi on 10-01-2004 at 04:39

	09-01-2004 15:20									#62
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But would Boris enjoy being "pround"ed?

	09-01-2004 15:25									#63
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quote: Geez man -- and people say I don't have a sense of humor about myself?

You don't have a sense of humor when it comes to threads involving issues of concern to the homosexual community.

quote: I never meant to say that libertarians are confusing -- I was bullsh*tting with you.

I think you're still BS'ing. There's a reason you chose to BS me and follow it up with an illogical excuse and that's because you thought, like Asher, that I was criticising the 9th circuit for allowing HP to fire that guy.

	09-01-2004 15:35									#64
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I'm surprised HP wasn't a little more creative here. Had they simply transferred this guy from his current department to customer service they would have raised the level of courtesy in both areas.

	09-01-2004 17:49									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Do you know of any Christians who go around killing homosexuals? That I believe is the issue at hand.

Gay murder suspects linked to Christian extremist group

Gay Bishop gets FBI protection for death threats

How about Matthew Shepard? Both of his killers were boys who grew up in Christian families and went to Christian churches.

But no, of course we will get the ol' song-and-dance that a Christian could never hurt nobody, nosirree. Oh, that guy killed an abortion doctor? Well, he must not really be a Christian--he's probably a closet Hindoo!

	09-01-2004 19:19									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker I not only support HP's decision, I support HP's right to discriminate, sheesh. My point was that the 9th circuit said HP could discriminate against this guy only because HP's discrimination was consistent with the government's wishes. If HP discriminated against someone in opposition to the government's wishes, then HP would have lost the lawsuit. HP can hire or fire based on it's goals and desires, **** what the government wants...

exactly

Its the politically-correct bullshit thats the problem here

	09-01-2004 19:19									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Looking more and more like a witch-hunt.

Look: He wasn't fired for being anti-gay. He was fired for insuborination. In an at-will state, this is all that's needed.

Further, what he posted is EASILY hate literature -- hell it calls for the death of gays. He not only put this in sight of his gay coworkers, but customers. It IS an extreme viewpoint, and it WOULD cost them customers.

This isn't a witch-hunt, it's a rational decision with an irrational man.

Regardless of his interests, all they were asking of him was to tolerate gay employees to prevent a hostile workforce. He had a major problem with tolerating his coworkers, and instead he wished to insult them and post literature condemning them to death.

PLEASE make a rational case for why the man shouldn't have been tossed on his ass.

	09-01-2004 19:27									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Seems clear to me that the new policy triggered this response. In 21 years I would think that he would have had to deal with having a gay co-worker. Did he intend for this to be visible to the customers? I don't know. It doesn't seem so cut and dried that he did. Now, what if HP asked him to move the signs to another location, where they would not be able to be viewed by the customers? Then if he refused, his intent would become clear. I still want to see the other passages and the policy by HP, as they would help me understand the thoughts of the worker, why he would do what he did.

Isnt this the case where the HP 'tolerance policy' essentially said that workers had to go out of their way to accept gays i.e. they were forcing their employees to agree with homosexuality.

	09-01-2004 19:31									#69
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Isnt this the case where the HP 'tolerance policy' essentially said that workers had to go out of their way to accept gays i.e. they were forcing their employees to agree with homosexuality.

How do you figure not wishing death upon them and harassing them equals agreeing with them?

	09-01-2004 19:40									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Asher How do you figure not wishing death upon them and harassing them equals agreeing with them?

I've read and re-read my statement (question) and I cannot understand how you came up with your comment.

The key phrase was "go out of their way". While I accept that this was not a precise clause, I didnt plan on a legal defence of it.

I believe this is the same case (but I'm unsure). The 'tolerance policy' had nothing to do with 'tolerance' it was a blantant slap in the face to christians who believe that homosexuality is wrong.

	09-01-2004 19:47									#71
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH The 'tolerance policy' had nothing to do with 'tolerance' it was a blantant slap in the face to christians who believe that homosexuality is wrong.

I believe Christianity is wrong but I tolerate the christians in my workplace.

	09-01-2004 19:49									#72
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I've read and re-read my statement (question) and I cannot understand how you came up with your comment. The key phrase was "go out of their way". While I accept that this was not a precise clause, I didnt plan on a legal defence of it. I believe this is the same case (but I'm unsure). The 'tolerance policy' had nothing to do with 'tolerance' it was a blantant slap in the face to christians who believe that homosexuality is wrong.

It didn't require them to go "out of their way"...please make an argument stating why they had to go "out of their way".

Unless you mean they had to go "out of their way" to stop harassing gay employees...

	09-01-2004 20:01									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It didn't require them to go "out of their way"...please make an argument stating why they had to go "out of their way". Unless you mean they had to go "out of their way" to stop harassing gay employees...

It's unfortunate that you spend so much time working with computers and (obviously) so little time reading english.

Again, I am refering to a case (which may be the same as this one) where the 'tolerance policy' had little to do with 'tolerance' and much to do with employer-enforced acceptance of gays.

	09-01-2004 20:10									#74
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So in other words, you're talking about something completely unrelated to this case? If it is related, you'll need to actually prove something.

And seeing how many tens of thousands of people HP employs, this guy seems to be the only one hellbent on "going out of his way" to harass gays.

"Accepting" of gays is a weird phrase -- you should "accept" all your coworkers at work. Or at least be outwardly friendly to them, even if you think they're going to go to Hell (or in my case, think they're wasting their life and money on a cult).

I don't understand why some Christians find the concept of being nice to coworkers regardless of their beliefs so foreign.

	09-01-2004 20:21									#75
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Asher please note, my initial comment was to a pertinent question from Ben Kenobi (not that it mattered with regard to the court ruling about the legality of his being fired, or that I agree with the fired employees religious beliefs).

	09-01-2004 20:23									#76
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The policy does not require that christians give up their beliefs or for that matter stop hating gays. It does require them to keep it to themselves, and to tolerate them in the workplace, or they'll be looking for a new job. If they're good christians they should just asume that god is testing their resolve.

And I'm calling your BS, Ben. If you and your so-called 'christian' ilk really loved the sinner and hated the sin, you and he would have no objection to the policy, since it said be tolerant of gays and not the 'gay lifestyle'.

	09-01-2004 20:42									#77
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After some searching I found the case I was thinking of and it was seperate from this one.

	09-01-2004 20:45									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Lev 20:13 "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." What's the context of this quote? It comes in the section of Leviticus, where God is talking to Moses declaring what are to be the punishments for sin. Your question is a good one, as to who this punishment applies, however your conclusion does not accurately represent conservative christians. Moses and the Israelites had a theocracy, where God's law was to be the law of the community. The severity of the punishments derives from the fact that the Israelites were God's chosen people, entrusted with the Law and the prophets. Anything they did poorly would reflect poorly on God. In this context, it makes no sense to apply these punishments for sin to today's world. What has not changed is the attitude of God towards homosexuality as sin.

If that quote doesn't make sense in a modern society, why would he post it?

	09-01-2004 20:51									#79
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"Love the sinner and hate the sin" is just doublespeak whereby some Christians think it will give them a free pass to discriminate.

Leviticus is hate speech--it says homosexuals should be put to death. This isn't a fringe interpretation of the passage. Now, why should someone be allowed to post passages in public view that call for killing certain people in a workplace? Just because it's in the Bible, some people seem to believe it should be given a pass. Bullshit, I say. I could care less what the source is--if it says, "kill person X," it has no place in work environment like HP.

The crux of this is so simple, I can't fathom the logic behind defending this guy.

HP: Don't harass gay employees.
Employee: I don't like gays! *Publicly posts anti-gay literature*
HP: Dude, that violates our policies. Take them down.
Employee: No.
HP: Please?
Employee: NO!
*Meeting ensues to try and work out situation. Employee won't budge. Continues to post literature*
HP: Well, we tried. You're fired.
Employee: DISCRIMINATION!!!!

HP went to the bounds of reasonableness. Note they didn't care that he had a bumper sticker in their parking lot, nor that he wrote letters to local papers. So it wasn't about his belief, but his inappropriate expression of it.

If a gay employee came to work and, say, had gay sex in the copy room, would their disapproval be because he was gay or because he violated company policy? The latter, duh. So this guy is in the same boat. Nobody was forcing him to like gays, they simply told him to treat them respectfully.

	09-01-2004 20:58									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker My point was that the 9th circuit said HP could discriminate against this guy only because HP's discrimination was consistent with the government's wishes. If HP discriminated against someone in opposition to the government's wishes, then HP would have lost the lawsuit.

This is, fo course, nonsense, because HP's firing this guy had nothing to do with discrimination. It had to do with him beinf insubordinate.

	09-01-2004 21:07									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Looking more and more like a witch-hunt.

Your penchant for selective interpretation is amazing.

Look, HP had NO problem with him having anti-gay bumper stickers or writing letters to papers. They tried several times to work out a solution. They didn't fire him on the spot, they sat down with him to discuss it. Witch hunts don't involve going to such lengths, now do they?

I love the convoluted notion that because he posted more than just Leviticus, that makes its call for killing gays okay. So if I posted a quote saying "Christians are rotten, they should be killed," but accompanied with nicer quotes saying, "Christians just suck," then that'd be okay? Lovely logic.

	09-01-2004 21:29									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi 9th circuit court again........ I wonder if a gay person posted stuff that was inflammatory against conservative Christians they would be fired?

Doesn't matter that it's the 9th Circuit - all the circuits have been pretty consistent in employer rights issues for quite some time, and in this case, the employee discrimination claim vs. employer's right to control the workplace atmosphere and employee conduct is really the fundamental issue, not the underlying content of the messages.

	09-01-2004 22:15									#83
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quote: The 'tolerance policy' had nothing to do with 'tolerance' it was a blantant slap in the face to christians who believe that homosexuality is wrong.

Teaching evolution in schools is a slap in the face to Christians.

Rejecting creationism is a slap in the face to Christians.

The increasingly legality of gay issues is a slap in the face to Christians.

The removal of the Ten Commandments from government buildings is a slap in the face of Christians.

The removal of teacher-led prayer in schools is a slap in the face to Christians.

The acceptance of women and minorities as equals is a slap in the face to Christians.

Etc., etc., etc.


The problem isn’t everyone else. The problem is that Christianity is so slappable.

By continuing to hold onto burning bush talking, ocean parting, rib woman making, ark building fairy tales, Christians have set themselves up for repeated disrespect. Get used to it; the fun is just starting.

	09-01-2004 22:26									#84
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quote: Originally posted by gamenaught By continuing to hold onto burning bush talking, ocean parting, rib woman making, ark building fairy tales, Christians have set themselves up for repeated disrespect. Get used to it; the fun is just starting.

Of course, if fundamentalism wasn't this present in the US, and if more Chrisitians could avoid reading the Old Testament literally, less fun would be poked at them.

	09-01-2004 23:45									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Seems more likely than not he would get along with his coworkers if he stayed there 21 years. Again, you analogy fails for reasons mentioned in my previous post. Are you saying people are born gay, just like their skin colour? Re-reading the article, it also fails to mention the other biblical passages he cited. They obviously reported that one because it's the most inflammatory. I wonder if he also cited Paul's letter to the Romans. Now, if all he's saying is that gays should be stoned, I can see him restricting himself to Leviticus. But if he cites other passages, then to be fair, you should deal with them as well. Looking more and more like a witch-hunt.

Sexual orientation is not a choice -- but I'm not sure exactly how it develops.

BUT, let me play devil's advocate with you for now. Let's say I agree with you that sexual orientation is a choice.

Now, are you saying that anyone should be free to discriminate against someone based on some kind of status that is more of a choice than something involuntary??

If so, then how would you like to be discriminated against for being Christian. Because you chose to be a faithful Christian, this means that people should be free to harrass you, and discriminate you at your workplace?

I think not.

	10-01-2004 00:05									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Leviticus is hate speech--it says homosexuals should be put to death.

No it doesn't. That maybe what the guy meant but that doesn't change what the verses mean.

	10-01-2004 00:09									#87
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DinoDoc, perhaps you can translate "they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" from English to Christian, please.

If I say you shall be killed, how is that not saying you will be...killed?

	10-01-2004 00:13									#88
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Yeah, I'm interested in hearing this bit of convoluted nonsense myself...

	10-01-2004 00:14									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Asher DinoDoc, perhaps you can translate "they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" from English to Christian, please.

Perhaps you care to point out a specific verse from Leviticus you feel says that you deserve death for your sexual preference Asher? I used to do this for fun when the CivNation DL was here so it will be like a walk down memory lane for me.

	10-01-2004 00:20									#90
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Wait, wait...I sense a variation of the "hate the sin, love the sinner" cop out coming...