10-01-2004 00:23									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Wait, wait...I sense a variation of the "hate the sin, love the sinner" cop out coming...

Not really. I'd have to believe it to be a sin in order to take that position. Can we stop making assumptions about others beliefs or is it acceptable for such statements to go both ways?

	10-01-2004 00:25									#92
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Saying gays should be killed for engaging in gay sex is still hate speech, DD.

	10-01-2004 00:26									#93
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And thus we go back to square one with my post to Asher.

	10-01-2004 00:31									#94
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"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Now, I may not be a theologian, but I'm rather certain this is unambiguous - have gay sex, be killed.

	10-01-2004 00:35									#95
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quote: He was fired for insuborination. In an at-will state, this is all that's needed.

No, that's not entirely true. You don't need ANYTHING to be fired in an at-will state (as long as the firing isn't on the basis of race, gender, religion, national origin) .

That's the question here. Was it on the basis of religion? And, of course, it wasn't.

	10-01-2004 00:46									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." Now, I may not be a theologian, but I'm rather certain this is unambiguous - have gay sex, be killed.

http://www.affirmation.org/learning/heterosexual_jewish_rebbes_view.asp

	10-01-2004 00:59									#97
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Why is this issue even up for discussion? this dumbass explicitly ignored explicit and legal commands by his private employers..so he got canned. Case closed. Thst this was absed on the guys religious intolerance is a minor issue, at best a factoid, not what matters.

	10-01-2004 01:12									#98
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc http://www.affirmation.org/learning...rebbes_view.asp

That doesn't seem to mention anything about the phrase that is up for discussion.

GePap: "Factoid^TM" is trademarked by TimeWarner.

	10-01-2004 01:23									#99
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Why is this issue even up for discussion? this dumbass explicitly ignored explicit and legal commands by his private employers..so he got canned. Case closed. Thst this was absed on the guys religious intolerance is a minor issue, at best a factoid, not what matters.

Gee I just love it when you get all decisive like that.

His side of the argument is that he was fired precisely because of his beliefs. I think these cases will become more and more common as the rights of gays and the beliefs of christians (and moslems and jews for that matter) come into conflict. The idea that the beliefs of the huge numbers of conservative christians in the USA can be pushed aside as a 'minor issue' is a mistake. I wouldnt say that Birmingham is a hotspot of gay activity, but there is a gay community and for the most part it's tolerated (but obviously not accepted). I havent seen any gay bashing here but a case like this would start a wildfire, and I suspect it would be so in most of the south.

	10-01-2004 01:23									#100
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I haven't read the 9th Circuit opinion. Does anyone have a link?

Question, if a gay person quits because the workplace has a "Christian" ethos, does he have a cause of action under the civil rights laws?

	10-01-2004 01:27									#101
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Here Ned:

http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/ca9/new...&Expand=1.1#1.1

and click on "01/06/04 01-35795 F PETERSON V HEWLETT-PACKARD CO."

	10-01-2004 01:32									#102
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Gee I just love it when you get all decisive like that. His side of the argument is that he was fired precisely because of his beliefs. I think these cases will become more and more common as the rights of gays and the beliefs of christians (and moslems and jews for that matter) come into conflict. The idea that the beliefs of the huge numbers of conservative christians in the USA can be pushed aside as a 'minor issue' is a mistake. I wouldnt say that Birmingham is a hotspot of gay activity, but there is a gay community and for the most part it's tolerated (but obviously not accepted). I havent seen any gay bashing here but a case like this would start a wildfire, and I suspect it would be so in most of the south.

It's a very simple issue that too many Christians can't get ahold of because, well...let's not go there.

You are right, it's rights of people versus Christian beliefs.

But, the rights of people prevail over the freedom of Christians to persecute gays. They have every right to believe Gays will be killed and will go to hell, blahblahblah, but they do not have the right to harass gay people about it.

That's not infringing on their freedom of religion, it's just protecting human rights. They can think what they want in their own private places.

	10-01-2004 02:06									#103
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What if the company posters said instead,

1) Homosexuality is not sinful; or

2) Homosexuality is sinful?

	10-01-2004 02:07									#104
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Or, perhaps more relevant, what if they said:

1) Seasme Street is on at 9am
2) What color are your shoes today?

	10-01-2004 02:09									#105
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quote: Question, if a gay person quits because the workplace has a "Christian" ethos, does he have a cause of action under the civil rights laws?

I do wish you'd read my posts, Ned . Under Title VII, sexual orientation is not a protected class.

	10-01-2004 02:13									#106
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Gee I just love it when you get all decisive like that. His side of the argument is that he was fired precisely because of his beliefs. I think these cases will become more and more common as the rights of gays and the beliefs of christians (and moslems and jews for that matter) come into conflict. The idea that the beliefs of the huge numbers of conservative christians in the USA can be pushed aside as a 'minor issue' is a mistake. I wouldnt say that Birmingham is a hotspot of gay activity, but there is a gay community and for the most part it's tolerated (but obviously not accepted). I havent seen any gay bashing here but a case like this would start a wildfire, and I suspect it would be so in most of the south.

In this case, http://caselaw.findlaw.com/data2/ci...h/9816924P.pdf, the 9th Cir. held, en banc, that same sex sexual touching is illegal under 1964 Civil Rights Act. i could find no case where simple lack of acceptance (toleration) of gays was held to be a violation.

	10-01-2004 02:14									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Question, if a gay person quits because the workplace has a "Christian" ethos, does he have a cause of action under the civil rights laws? I do wish you'd read my posts, Ned . Under Title VII, sexual orientation is not a protected class.

Imran, I apologize. Your are normally RIGHT (in more than one sense of that term).

	10-01-2004 02:16									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Or, perhaps more relevant, what if they said: 1) Seasme Street is on at 9am 2) What color are your shoes today?

Asher, no, the question is directed to a company policy that directs you to take a position on a religious issue or implicitly you can be fired.

	10-01-2004 02:17									#109
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Gee I just love it when you get all decisive like that. His side of the argument is that he was fired precisely because of his beliefs.

So his religion tells him to oppose private ownership? Or commands him to disobey his employers?

quote: I think these cases will become more and more common as the rights of gays and the beliefs of christians (and moslems and jews for that matter) come into conflict. The idea that the beliefs of the huge numbers of conservative christians in the USA can be pushed aside as a 'minor issue' is a mistake. I wouldnt say that Birmingham is a hotspot of gay activity, but there is a gay community and for the most part it's tolerated (but obviously not accepted). I havent seen any gay bashing here but a case like this would start a wildfire, and I suspect it would be so in most of the south.

Give me a break. First, if the south of full of ignorant homophobes, that is somethign for the homophobes to get over.

The guy believs homosexuality is a sin-fine. The company policy was not saying "you must stop believing homosexuality is a sin", the company policy states "you must treat all workers equally in the office no matter thier race, gender or sexual orientation". When the guy goes home, he can hate gays all he wants- when he prays, he can damn them all he wants- when he goes to work, he must treat all workers with thesame decorum. This i no different as has been said from a racist saying his beliefs make him hate black people so he should be able to put racist things. NO one can demand this guys change religion, he can not be fired simply becuase of what his religion is, but he can not take acts, even if he does them for religious reasons, that go agaist company policy. Someone who believes in Santeria can;t start sacrificing chickens at the office cause its part of his religion- Sihks might not be able to continually hold on to their daggers if the company policy says no weapons. It is that simple. Your constitutional rights extend only so far: a company coul;d fire someone if they all of a sudden begun to expout a political belief, which of cours eis freedom of speech- what if a worker but up a sign saying :"kill the baby Killer Bush- all republicans are monsters"? or perhaps "Bill Clinton was a hoar- democrats are subhuman"? Would firing a guy for posting a public poster like that be a violent attack against his freedom of speech?

So again, I could give a rats ass that the bible beltis full of homophobes- this guy broke him company policy, a policy the company had every right to create and enforce.

	10-01-2004 02:18									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Asher, no, the question is directed to a company policy that directs you to take a position on a religious issue or implicitly you can be fired.

But that "company policy" doesn't relate to this thread or the issue at all, HP's policy is to tolerate gay employees in the workplace.

	10-01-2004 02:22									#111
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The guy was rightfully fired.

A) He created a hostile work place. Regardless if it is religious or not doesn't matter. He produced and displayed material of an offensive nature. In most private companies that will get you fired.

B) He refused to take it down. Next time your boss asks you to do something just tell him "No, I can't do that due to ethical reasons" and see how long you last.


Also, I agree with GePap.

	10-01-2004 02:36									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Asher But that "company policy" doesn't relate to this thread or the issue at all, HP's policy is to tolerate gay employees in the workplace.

Asher, but let us suppose he simply quit because he disagreed with the pro-Gay posters and then sued because the company policy was asking him to take a position on an issue with which his religion disagreed.

This is not hypothetical because that is his legal position with respect to the effect of the pro-Gay posters.

	10-01-2004 02:40									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Japher The guy was rightfully fired. A) He created a hostile work place. Regardless if it is religious or not doesn't matter. He produced and displayed material of an offensive nature. In most private companies that will get you fired. B) He refused to take it down. Next time your boss asks you to do something just tell him "No, I can't do that due to ethical reasons" and see how long you last. Also, I agree with GePap.

Japher, put asside the insuborndination for a moment, assume that a gay collegue quit because of the biblical messages being displayed. Does the gay person have a cause of action?

	10-01-2004 02:43									#114
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quote: assume that a gay collegue quit because of the biblical messages being displayed. Does the gay person have a cause of action?

He may be able to claim religious harassment, if the gay person is not a Christian (or even if he is, by saying that certain sect of Christianity is being pushed on him). However, if it was just for one nutter co-worker putting biblical passages up, it probably wouldn't fly.

	10-01-2004 02:45									#115
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Yeah, be GePap, according to Imran, Gays are not a protected class of people and they can legally be discrimated against under the Civil Rights Act.

	10-01-2004 02:49									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: assume that a gay collegue quit because of the biblical messages being displayed. Does the gay person have a cause of action? He may be able to claim religious harassment, if the gay person is not a Christian (or even if he is, by saying that certain sect of Christianity is being pushed on him). However, if it was just for one nutter co-worker putting biblical passages up, it probably wouldn't fly.

OK, then if a gay person has no "hostile environment" cause of action because one person puts up anti-gay bible passages, how can a person be fired for creating a hostile atmosphere to gays when he is stating his religious views? (Insubordination asside.) Religion, as apposed to sexual orientation, is "expressly" protected.

	10-01-2004 02:53									#117
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quote: Japher, put asside the insuborndination for a moment, assume that a gay collegue quit because of the biblical messages being displayed. Does the gay person have a cause of action?

In my opinion, or through course of law?

IMO, no. The person quit. You can't sue someone else for your own actions. Yet, if they quit because the company wouldn't do anything about it or even encouraged it, than yes. Because then, thier refusal to help would be rather close to an act of discrimination or at least sexual harrasment. It could also be seen as a threat.

Course of the law, probably.

This reminds me of an episode of Drew Carey.

	10-01-2004 02:56									#118
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quote: how can a person be fired for creating a hostile atmosphere to gays when he is stating his religious views? (Insubordination asside.) Religion, as apposed to sexual orientation, is "expressly" protected.

Because a 'hostile environment' for working is different from a hostile environment cause of action under Title VII. By putting up the verses, the employee may be causing a hostile environment, and IF it continues, the gay employee may have a case not only against the displayer, but ALSO THE EMPLOYER! It's the same reason that playboy calenders aren't allowed. Because they create a hostile workplace for women, even if they wouldn't be able to win on it in court as soon as it goes up.

Let me give you an example, if an employee grabs a female co-worker's butt once and does nothing else, that wouldn't be enough to win on sexual harassment claim. However, a company can fire the person for creating a hostile work environment (all women won't work with that guy anymore because of it) and that's ok.

They aren't firing him for his religion. They are firing him because they asked him to get rid of the quotes because co-workers had problems with it, and he refused.

They can fire you if you reduce productivity by your beliefs.

	10-01-2004 02:58									#119
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Consider this passage from the Ninth Circuit opinion:

In Tucker v. California Dep’t of Educ., 97 F.3d 1204 (9th Cir. 1996), we expressed concern that a state agency’s prohibition on religious posting in the workplace constituted viewpoint discrimination in violation of the First Amendment because it “silenc[ed] religious perspectives on controversial subjects.” We illustrated these concerns by explaining the prohibition’s potential impact on a hypothetical sign “stating that ‘gay marriage is a sin,’ and quoting passages from the Bible to support that proposition.”

	10-01-2004 03:00									#120
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quote: Consider this passage from the Ninth Circuit opinion: In Tucker v. California Dep’t of Educ., 97 F.3d 1204 (9th Cir. 1996), we expressed concern that a state agency’s prohibition on religious posting in the workplace constituted viewpoint discrimination in violation of the First Amendment because it “silenc[ed] religious perspectives on controversial subjects.” We illustrated these concerns by explaining the prohibition’s potential impact on a hypothetical sign “stating that ‘gay marriage is a sin,’ and quoting passages from the Bible to support that proposition.”

There is no First Amendment right working for a private employer.