10-01-2004 03:53									#151
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The countervailing legal right in this case is that of the private employer.

Gay employees aren't litigants here, a private employer is, in a termination case.

	10-01-2004 03:55									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Ned MtG, If aggressive advocacy of one's political or religious points of view by posting visible signs in one's cube on such issues can get one fired, then I don't know how many times I would have like to fire certain feminists in my time.

And you might have been able to, depending on the degree of visibility, etc. - were these signs visible to customers? Were they put in an area (say on top of the cube or outside) where they were visible to anyone in the area?

As an employer, I'm an equal opportunity chop-buster if employees are out of line in their conduct, whatever the reason.

	10-01-2004 03:55									#153
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Merely having a bible on his desk, and studying it in his free time, is a non-issue. A group of like minded employees doing so on lunch hours and authorized breaks is also a non-issue. Proselytizing, carrying out any "protected" activity in what should be work time, or the like certainly is a valid issue for the employer to address through it's policies and disciplinary/warning/termination process.

No doubt. But the ONLY issue here, as opposed to the strawmen being erected, is the posting of visible signs in one's cube.

The man was NOT accused of going around and harrassing gays or interrupting any work. He was protesting the company policy on religious grounds.

	10-01-2004 03:58									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Ned No doubt. But the ONLY issue here, as opposed to the strawmen being erected, is the posting of visible signs in one's cube. The man was NOT accused of going around and harrassing gays or interrupting any work. He was protesting the company policy on religious grounds.

quote: in response, hung biblical passages condemning homosexuality on the overhead bin above his cubicle. A self-described devout Christian who said it was his duty "to expose evil when confronted with it," Peterson deliberately hung the verses where employees and customers would see them, the Associated Press reported.

That ain't in his cube, that's deliberately positioning it where it could be seen by third parties including customers. Then refusing directions from his superiors to take it down. Game over. Besides - if he really is that offended by the company's (legal) policy, he should seek employment elsewhere. The company just motivated him to do so.

	10-01-2004 04:00									#155
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat And you might have been able to, depending on the degree of visibility, etc. - were these signs visible to customers? Were they put in an area (say on top of the cube or outside) where they were visible to anyone in the area? As an employer, I'm an equal opportunity chop-buster if employees are out of line in their conduct, whatever the reason.

MTG, of course, taking the displays into the public might be going too far, but let me tell you that I have seen plenty of anti-war posters and peace symbols publicly visible in peoples offices and cubes.

People have a right to express their views - even on religion.

	10-01-2004 04:00									#156
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The man was posting quotes that frankly speaking amount to hate speech. Granted this hate speech comes from a book several thousand years old, that many people believe to be holy. Does that change the fact that it's encouraging hate?

	10-01-2004 04:03									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Ned MTG, of course, taking the displays into the public might be going too far, but let me tell you that I have seen plenty of anti-war posters and peace symbols publicly visible in peoples offices and cubes. People have a right to express their views - even on religion.

Ned:

Anti-war posters and peace symbols do not say "Bush is an abomination. Let his blood be upon him." If you see a peace poster saying that, the person will probably be fired. Where in peace signs or feminist materials do you see hate speech?

	10-01-2004 04:05									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Alright, take gays out of this. What you are saying is that if anyone publically expresses his religious view at work he can be fired.

It was the mode of his expression that was the problem: he could have very well put up the sign right next to his computer, so only people going right into his public area saw it- instead, he placed it so anyone and customers would see it- that went ebyod his owen personal beliefs to affecting the working environment and the company business- and no, this is a private company, so he does not have the same constitutional protection.

This guy was a coward- if the company policy so offended his religious

	10-01-2004 04:05									#159
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It was visible to customers who were in the cubes. But why they would be there is a puzzle.

Visible other employees is the question, then.

I must admit that I think that this is where the question gets close.

	10-01-2004 04:12									#160
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Peace protestors were fired. Some who didn't even take the issue into the workplace.

	10-01-2004 04:12									#161
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Napoleon, the fact that quotes were from the Bible means that they were protected religious beliefs.

The only serious question here is how publicly did he have a right to express them, not whether one agreed with them or not. The courts cannot permit one kind of religious expression to be displayed why banning another depending on content.

	10-01-2004 04:14									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Ned MTG, of course, taking the displays into the public might be going too far, but let me tell you that I have seen plenty of anti-war posters and peace symbols publicly visible in peoples offices and cubes. People have a right to express their views - even on religion.

It's like the Ben Franklin (IIRC) quote about your right to wave your fist in the air ending just in front of my nose.

The right to express is one thing. There is no right to disrupt or interfere with a private employer during business hours in that employer's place of business.

	10-01-2004 04:14									#163
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Peace protestors were fired. Some who didn't even take the issue into the workplace.

But all this indicates is that peace protesters were

1) doing more than just posting signs; and/or
2) are not a protected class under the Civil Rights Act.

	10-01-2004 04:17									#164
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MtG, agreed. I think a company, like HP, could have a general rule banning ALL displays visible outside the one's cube and that rule could have been validly enforced here without violating anyone's rights.

But, that is was not the reason he was fired in this case.

	10-01-2004 04:18									#165
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Ned:

The issue here is that his religious beliefs "I believe gays should be killed" conflicted with community law of the country that he was living in. HP has no obligation to tolerate expression of beliefs contrary to US laws (specifically the hate speech statutes) on its public property. Where the guy was expressing his beliefs on his car, or in the newspaper, no one did a thing to him. The original problem that HP had with the materials is that they run contrary to established standards of community behavior.

	10-01-2004 04:21									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Ned MtG, agreed. I think a company, like HP, could have a general rule banning ALL displays visible outside the one's cube and that rule could have been validly enforced here without violating anyone's rights. But, that is was not the reason he was fired in this case.

That's precisely the issue. If your displays do not promote hate, it's likely the employer will not have a problem with them (as with feminist materials). This guy's quotes did though.

	10-01-2004 04:22									#167
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Napoleon, if there were no Civil Rights Act, everything you said would be right. But religion and the expression of religious beliefs at work are in fact protected.

	10-01-2004 04:26									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Ned ...but let me tell you that I have seen plenty of anti-war posters and peace symbols publicly visible in peoples offices and cubes. People have a right to express their views - even on religion.

If the employer asked them to put away the posters and they refused to, they could have been fired IMO.
Every employer has the right to ban political expressions that go against their policy: if the employer's policy is discriminating and constructing a hostile environment, the employee should go to courts to make it stop.

	10-01-2004 04:28									#169
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Expression of religious beliefs is a tricky thing. There are strands of Islam that consider jihad a religious belief. Does that give employees right to post signs calling for it in their cubicles? There are some pretty weird small religions out there with wacky beliefs. Or are we talking about preferrential treatment for Christians because they are the majority?

This guy was engaging (according to his own claims) in a polemic with the company policy. He was promoting , not merely expressing his religious beliefs in order to say the company's (completely lawful) policy is wrong. I would doubt the Civil Rights Act provides protection for this.

	10-01-2004 04:28									#170
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quote: MtG, agreed. But that is not why this employee was fired. He was fired because he was creating a hostile environment for gays because of his expression of his religious views. His religious views are expressly protected under the Civil Rights Act.

I agree, but still you admit that he was creating a hostile workplace. Regardless of what the Civil Rights Act protects it cannot/should not be able to do so at the expense of others. That was not the "spirit" of the law.

I don't think the fired him solely because of his religious views. Though it was the root of it.

Should a bank hire an Islam ran by Jews? If they did could they fire him if he started expressing anti-semetic behavior?

In most cases it is the "spirit" of the law that is weighed and not just the written word of it, and the 9th Circuit Coury are "pros" at doing this

	10-01-2004 04:31									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Napoleon I That's precisely the issue. If your displays do not promote hate, it's likely the employer will not have a problem with them (as with feminist materials). This guy's quotes did though.

Napoleon, but if the company rules or lack thereof permitted visible displays including political or religious viewpoints, then banning religious displays depending on content would be violation of the Civil Rights Act.

But, as I said, I would have no problem with a company rule than banned all publicly visible displays of any kind.

	10-01-2004 04:32									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph You and I know that those calander when away in the 80s. Even the guys who had the calander inside of their locker were made to take them down and take them home.

Guitarro had a tasteful nude painting in the wardroom all of its life.

	10-01-2004 04:39									#173
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I think that airlines should be allowed to require that stewardesses be unmarried and hot.

	10-01-2004 04:39									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Napoleon I Expression of religious beliefs is a tricky thing. There are strands of Islam that consider jihad a religious belief. Does that give employees right to post signs calling for it in their cubicles? There are some pretty weird small religions out there with wacky beliefs. Or are we talking about preferrential treatment for Christians because they are the majority? This guy was engaging (according to his own claims) in a polemic with the company policy. He was promoting , not merely expressing his religious beliefs in order to say the company's (completely lawful) policy is wrong. I would doubt the Civil Rights Act provides protection for this.

The question is still whether HP permitted displays of political, religious and other such views generally to be posted as did this employee. If one were to scan the room where these cubes were, would one see dozens of different political and religious views displayed? If none were displayed, he was violating at least an implicit rule against making a public display. If everyone was doing it, they were taking action against him because of the content of his religious views.

	10-01-2004 04:42									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Mazarin If the employer asked them to put away the posters and they refused to, they could have been fired IMO. Every employer has the right to ban political expressions that go against their policy: if the employer's policy is discriminating and constructing a hostile environment, the employee should go to courts to make it stop.

I think this is right. However, if the employer generally permits the display of political viewpoints but bans this one that is based on religion, that specifically is prohibited under the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

	10-01-2004 04:42									#176
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Ned:

There are two right at work here. HP has a right to creaty a workplace that complies with US laws and policies. Employees have a right to have beliefs that oppose these laws.

However, when the two collide the company has a right to follow lawful policy in its space. Civil Rights Act protection is for people who express their beliefs and get fired for expressing them. This guy was fired for violating lawful company policy (in this case his manager's decision).

But lets confront the bigger issue. In your opinion, is Leviticus hate speech or not?

	10-01-2004 04:59									#177
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Mr. Fun:

Even if I were on Apolyton, I am not required to answer any of your posts, on any subject. That being said, I've been busy today, with classes and whatnot. So deal with it.

Actually, I'm glad you made your post, I wondered if anyone would make this argument last night. It's a very deep question into why do we have freedom of religion.

quote: If so, then how would you like to be discriminated against for being Christian. Because you chose to be a faithful Christian, this means that people should be free to harrass you, and discriminate you at your workplace?

Christians expect to receive discrimination, from a variety of places just by being outspoken. However, it is society that has chosen to protect these beliefs.

We have not always had religious freedom. It used to be that if you were a Catholic, or heaven forbid, a Jew or Muslim in a Protestant country, you would not be able to do the same things as a Protestant. One example would be Catholics in Britain, before Catholic Emancipation, in that the Catholics would not be able to serve in the house of Parliament, they would not be able to own land our property. As such, they were marginalised. In many Catholic countries, you could expect similar treatment for being Protestant, and in many cases, you could even expected to be burned for heresy.

Now, what would change all this? It became recognised, that while people do make a choice to join a religion, that this choice has something to do with freedom of speech, and conscience. How could one have a right to speak out on unpopular subjects, yet not also have the right to practice those beliefs, regardless of your religious sect?

Interestingly, one could even make the argument that religious freedom exists not to protect the Christians and believers, but rather the unbelievers, or those who for whatever reason did not choose to believe. In having religious freedom, they could also be free to not practice, as they would also be free to practice.

So what makes other choices, like smoking, or homosexuality different from religion? Is it proper to say that homosexuality is a matter of the conscience, like religion? The very fact that people question how does homosexuality arise would seem to be evidence to the contrary.

	10-01-2004 05:04									#178
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Why is this even subject to debate? The 9th strangely enough made the correct decision.

	10-01-2004 05:06									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So what makes other choices, like smoking, or homosexuality different from religion? Is it proper to say that homosexuality is a matter of the conscience, like religion? The very fact that people question how does homosexuality arise would seem to be evidence to the contrary.

Ben:

You can look at it either way and come up with the same answer. If homosexuality is not a choice but something that a person is born with, then it's just like race. And people of all races should be treated the same right?
If it is a consious choice of lifestyle that people make, then it is a question of consiense, hense the whole argument you lay out above.

As far as I see there is nothing that would be worth disputing here.

	10-01-2004 05:08									#180
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why is this even subject to debate? The 9th strangely enough made the correct decision.

As far as I am concerned, I'm trying to prod people to examine whether or not parts of the Bible actually constitute hate speech.