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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
The Red Army is an abomination to humanity. Serb, I can't see how you could ever support it? |
I'd say that what the Russian soldiers did was a natural response to the Nazi atrocities. Imagine liberating a concentration camp and thinking maybe your family or neighbours died here. Wouldn't the natural reaction be to kill the next German you saw.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:33
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Edited.
Last edited by Serb on 15-01-2004 at 07:54
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
Would you have preferred the Nazis winning?
Your comment distorts something that doesn't have to be distorted.
After seeing what the Germans did to the Russian people (eg murdering, raping, enslaving millions), the Russian soldiers went on a rampage when they entered East Prussia. Yes, they killed civilians, raped women of all ages.
As the Red Army advanced further into Germany, the killing and raping spree seems to have lessened, although it still happened on a routine basis. One estimate is that two million German women were raped in 1945.
But, remember that millions of Russian civilians were murdered by German troops. Naturally, Russian soldiers wanted vengence.
The Red Army turned into a mob when it entered Germany. While raping German women may be understandable given what the Germans did, although certainly not justifable, Russian soldiers also raped women who the Germans had enslaved, including Russians.
What separates the Germans and the Russians is that the Soviet government took steps to stop the rapes: through propaganda that urged soldiers to behave themselves and through military orders designed to curb the criminal acts. The Germans, on the other hand, actively encouraged crimes against humanity. |
Simplistic and facile. The war on the personal level contained plenty of atrocities for no reason on all sides as well as acts worthy of praise. Many of the Waffen SS came from countries outside of Germany. A friend's father was Lithuanian when the Russians invaded in 1939. He joined the 9th SS Panzer Division and served until he was captured in the Ruhr pocket in 1945. He was a tank commander at the end of the war, but when he joined up he was simply a young man who wanted to keep the Russians out of his country. I don't blame him for ending up on the "wrong" side of the war. In his position I don't see a right side, nor can I criticize his decision made perhaps rashly and certainly on very partial information. Stalin or Hitler? A bad deal any way you look at it. Ask the Finns.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Sikander
Simplistic and facile. The war on the personal level contained plenty of atrocities for no reason on all sides |
Yes, this statement is certainly simplistic and facile, and it ignores the facts.
The atrocities committed by German soldiers in Russia were not simply occassional crimes of passion resulting from "war on the personal level".
The atrocities were a result of the Nazi propaganda that brainwashed Germans into treating Eastern Europeans as "sub-humans mongrels". German soldiers were so convinced that Eastern Europeans were "sub-human" that they thought nothing about murdering them. They were hell-bent on genocide.
Consider the treatment of Russian POWs vs the treatment of Western Allied POWs. Russian POWs were shot, tortured and starved to death on routine basis. This occurred on the frontlines and in the rear areas.
By no means were the atrocities simply a result of the heat of battle.
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
Yes, this statement is certainly simplistic and facile, and it ignores the facts.
The atrocities committed by German soldiers in Russia were not simply occassional crimes of passion resulting from "war on the personal level".
The atrocities were a result of the Nazi propaganda that brainwashed Germans into treating Eastern Europeans as "sub-humans mongrels". German soldiers were so convinced that Eastern Europeans were "sub-human" that they thought nothing about murdering them. They were hell-bent on genocide.
Consider the treatment of Russian POWs vs the treatment of Western Allied POWs. Russian POWs were shot, tortured and starved to death on routine basis. This occurred on the frontlines and in the rear areas.
By no means were the atrocities simply a result of the heat of battle. |
You keep using grandiose language which implies that what you are saying was universally true. I'm simply saying that there were good and bad people and actions on all sides, and it is difficult to state with any scientific accuracy that the German soldiers were worse than the Russian soldiers in general. If you want to play a numbers game you have to contend with the fact that the Germans occupied parts of Russia much longer than the Russians occupied parts of Germany while the war still raged. Obviously the gestapo guys, the Totenkopf guys and the SS police battalions were picked for their sadism, just as the NKVD men were on the other side. But your universal language simply dumps everyone into broad categories based upon their nationality, or in some cases despite their nationality. In my opinion the war in the East has enough shame to go around at least a couple of times.
This paragraph (bolded above) for instance states that "the" attrocities were a result of Nazi propoganda, as though that were somehow true of all of them. And they,( I guess every single person in a Wehrmacht or SS uniform) was "hell bent on genocide". Was My Lai a result of U.S. propoganda that treated Vietnamese people as subhuman mongrels? Were the GIs under command of Lt. William Calley hell bent on exterminating the Vietnamese race? Or perhaps soldiers just get frustrated when they are killed regularly in the same area and sometimes take that out on those who are unable to defend themselves. These sorts of crimes are usually quite personal in the sense that they occur for very personal reasons. Propoganda notwithstanding, even the specially selected and trained Einsatzgruppen fell apart pretty quickly when forced to shoot Jews and Communists all day. Murder to the person who commits it remains very much a crime of passion. The whole point of the death camps was to remove the passion from the crime, so that fewer of their own people would break under the strain.
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Saras
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Vilnius, Lithuania
Apr 1999
time: 06:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Sikander
You keep using grandiose language which implies that what you are saying was universally true. I'm simply saying that there were good and bad people and actions on all sides, and it is difficult to state with any scientific accuracy that the German soldiers were worse than the Russian soldiers in general. If you want to play a numbers game you have to contend with the fact that the Germans occupied parts of Russia much longer than the Russians occupied parts of Germany while the war still raged. Obviously the gestapo guys, the Totenkopf guys and the SS police battalions were picked for their sadism, just as the NKVD men were on the other side. But your universal language simply dumps everyone into broad categories based upon their nationality, or in some cases despite their nationality. In my opinion the war in the East has enough shame to go around at least a couple of times.
This paragraph (bolded above) for instance states that "the" attrocities were a result of Nazi propoganda, as though that were somehow true of all of them. And they,( I guess every single person in a Wehrmacht or SS uniform) was "hell bent on genocide". Was My Lai a result of U.S. propoganda that treated Vietnamese people as subhuman mongrels? Were the GIs under command of Lt. William Calley hell bent on exterminating the Vietnamese race? Or perhaps soldiers just get frustrated when they are killed regularly in the same area and sometimes take that out on those who are unable to defend themselves. These sorts of crimes are usually quite personal in the sense that they occur for very personal reasons. Propoganda notwithstanding, even the specially selected and trained Einsatzgruppen fell apart pretty quickly when forced to shoot Jews and Communists all day. Murder to the person who commits it remains very much a crime of passion. The whole point of the death camps was to remove the passion from the crime, so that fewer of their own people would break under the strain. |
Less emotion, more discussion.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Sikander
Many served along the Atlantic wall, including a group of Whites who refused to surrender to anyone less than a General IIRC. I think some were with the German 352nd Division at Normandy. There were about a million volunteers, only a fraction of which were actually retained in a military capacity. |
Sorry Sikander, but it doesn't sounds very convincing for me. You've used such words as "many", "if I remember correctly", "I think" and then made a statement about one million of volunteers. When Germany capitulated in its armed forces were 4,1 millions. So, every fourth was Russian volunteer, right? 
There is a big difference between a volunteer and POW who kept within enemy's division for forced labour (dig, trenches, etc). Or perhaps you're trying to convince that Russian volunteeres served in 352nd Volksgrenadier division? How the hell they could be soldiers in German division, if they didn't know language?
One million of volunteeres is a BS figure.
Perhaps you'll be interested to read how those "whities" recruited those voluteeres from POWs. It memoirs of one such POWs- Mikhail Lukinov:
"The situation was becoming more and more alarming. American Air Force started to bomb cities next to us, and often destroyed the railway. We were forced to repair it. Propaganda men from ROA (Russian Liberation Army) started to visit us often, encouraging us to enter Vlasov’s army. They were also telling us that “in the worst case, entire Europe would be open for us”. They were talking us into taking German weapons into our hands, “before it is too late”. Alarming rumours arrived from Ludwigsburg POW camp that they were recruiting men into their army by force. However, there so far there were no fools or traitors in our team. On one working day we were not taken to work, and stayed in the barracks. We were told to sit down at the table and wait. We were all lost in anxious guesses. Finally, door from the guard room opened, an NCO appeared and gave Achtung order. We stood up. Some strange German officer walked into the room. He quietly told something to the Unteroffizier. The latter saluted and went out of the room. The officer walked to the centre of the barracks and started to gaze at us. He was short and strong older person with red mustache that started to turn gray, thick eyebrows and a drilling look. Contradiction between his age and his rank was crying. He was only a Lieutenant. Yellow lining of his uniform indicated him as a cavalry officer. Several minutes passed in silence. Suddenly the officer said in clear Russian language: “At ease, sit down, gentlemen!” The amazed “gentlemen” sat down. The officer walked along our tables and started talking: "Gentlemen, I am also Russian, just like you, but older, and due to the will of fate I had to leave my Motherland. I was a Lieutenant in Astrakhanski Regiment, took part in the First World War and them in the Civil War. As you might guess, I fought on the White side.” “Gentlemen,” he continued, “The Second World War is now entering a decisive stage, and no one would be able to avoid participation in it. You will also take part in it, but this time on the side of civilized and just cause. Soon you will be drafted into General Vlasov’s Russian Liberation Army and will serve as privates in infantry. I am now building up a privileged cavalry Cossack unit and came here in order to recruit those who had served in cavalry or Cossack units, who are a Cossack or those who would like to serve in an elite unit instead of infantry." We were dumbfounded by such news and such proposal. After a pause, the officer asked: "So, gentlemen, who would like to join?" We all remained silent. The officer continued: "if there are no volunteers, I will myself pick up those whom I find fitting. But I am warning you that I will pass on those who refuse to Hestapo. You know yourself what this means. No one comes back alive and healthy from there." After this phrase he started to call each one by name, asking name, rank, profession of parents and so on. I wanted to stand up and say: “Sir! We fought honestly, defending our country and it is not our fault that we were taken prisoners. Half of our country is destroyed by the war. Millions of our countrymen died. We are being used here as slaves, we are starving, we are being beaten and humiliated. And now, when Germany is beaten from two sides, when we have hope for the end of the war, liberation and return to our Motherland, here you are and offer us putting on German uniforms, take German weapons and defend Germany. You are offering us to fight against our brothers, who are coming to liberate us. Apparently, you think we are all idiots here if you make such an offer. You fought against your own people, lost your Motherland and degraded to such a degree that put on a German uniform, becoming a traitor. Now you want us to do the same, so that we (if we are not killed by our own brothers) would repeat your fate." Each one of us wanted to say so, but we could not. We had to stay silent, as this White guard in German uniform could shoot each one of us. After the interrogation the officer picked up three men and took them away. One of them was Lisnevski, a nice young man from intelligentsia family; the second was Yurkin, an unpleasant creature with no principles. I do not remember who the third was. After some time Lisnevski managed to get out of this dirty story and come back to our team. We did not know what happened to the other two. Speaking about the threat of mobilization into Vlasov’s army, it never came true. They either did not have time or Germans were reluctant to arm those who were openly hostile toward them. Or this White Guard just lied to us about the whole thing in order to scare us..."
About those Vlasov's freaks:
"...German troops, Polizei with dogs, civilians (apparently, members of Nazi party) and even individual soldiers were retreating pass us on the village road. Sometimes German soldiers would walk into our barn in order to stay overnight or to have a rest. I would talk to them. Most of them were demoralized and were openly speaking about German defeat. Some of them were hoping that on April 20, Hitler’s birthday, a peace treaty would be signed. They also said that special blocking detachments were organized out of Vlasov’s men, and that they were executing all retreating troops and stragglers. “If not these comrades of yours, we would have quite fighting long ago." They also warned us, that Vlasov’s men were the last ones to retreat and executed all, even Russian prisoners. "So you should be careful about these comrades of yours.” It would be a pity to be killed by these bandits now, when the liberation was so near "
An interesting reading. Full story can be found here:
http://www.iremember.ru/artilleryme...ov/lukinov3.htm
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Cruddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Mordoch
Desert Eagle .50 Action Express with scope. The world most powerful handgun.
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No, actually, THIS is the world's most powerful handgun - heartily disliked by anyone that fired it.
The Mars Gabbet-Fairfax (Click me and scroll down)
Although .45 rather than .50 calibre, the number of grains of propellent in the magnum shaped cartridge was EXCESSIVE to say the least...
Last edited by Cruddy on 14-01-2004 at 16:21
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Cruddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Colon
did those brit dudez have any grand battleshipz? |
Yep, KGV class (King George 5th) would be about our best, although to be honest we'd concentrated more on aircraft carriers from about 1938 onwards.
Anyone who wants a good look at relative battleship performance might like to try;-
Build a better Battleship
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Cruddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Sikander
...Max Hastings... |
Hawwwkkkkkkk-PTTTUI!
The most unreliable, twisted, arse licking, back stabbing "creative" journalist from this country in recent years.
Did you know he was nearly knifed by his fellow journalists at the end of the Falklands War for deliberately sending only his story off telling the country about the ceasefire?
There was only one seat on the chopper to the ship with the radio gear - and he handed out all the other copy to the off duty officers in the wardroom.
After that sort of behaviour, I wouldn't beleive a road safety guide written by Max "Hitler" Hastings. Yes, that is his nickname.
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CerberusIV
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quote:
Originally posted by Cruddy
Yep, KGV class (King George 5th) would be about our best, although to be honest we'd concentrated more on aircraft carriers from about 1938 onwards.
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Vanguard , an improved KGV was the best the UK ever built but not launched until 1946.
It's a shame the US never completed the Montana class.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Sikander
You keep using grandiose language which implies that what you are saying was universally true. I'm simply saying that there were good and bad people and actions on all sides,
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You may call it "grandoise language", but perhaps this is the only language that can describe the extent of the atrocities committed by the Germans in Russia.
Do you think the Germans during WWII were just like everybody else? Did everyone else try to kill all the jews gypsys, etc? You do know that three millions Russians POWs out of 5.7 million captured died in German captivity. Did the Western allies kill half of the Germans they captured?
Your comparison of the Germans in WWII and My Lai is one of apples to oranges.
My Lai was an isolated event. The US government put Calley on trial (after the incident was exposed) and he was convicted IIRC.
The German atrocities in Russia were wide spread, widely known among the troops and endorsed and encouraged by the government.
Do you see the difference?
The question is then: Why did the Germans do what they did? Why did "civilized" people become barbarians. One of the main reasons is the Nazi philosophy that East Europeans were "sub-human", a belief that was drilled into the German people through propaganda. To the vast majority of German soldiers, killing Russian civilians and POWs was perfectly acceptable.
The following are quotes from Anthony Beevor's Stalingrad describing conditions during the first summer of the German invasion of Russia.
"Nazi propaganda simultaneously provoking atavistic fears and hate, incited soldiers to kill as much out of former as the latter."
"The wounded [Russian POWs] generally received no medical assistance and those who could not march or who collapsed from exhaustion were shot... The German Army itself, not the SS nor any other Nazi organization was responsible for prisoners of war."
"German soldiers were "taking pot-shots at the columns of Soviet prisoners trudging to the rear."
An order from the German Sixth Army HQ on 10 Aug 41 noted: "There have been cases of off-duty soldiers volunteering to help the SD with their executions, or acting as spectators and taking photos."
"Although there were cases of soldiers reluctant to carry out executions when ordered, most natural pity for civilians transmuted into an incoherent anger."
Your attempt to paint the German army and SS units in Russia as just another fighting force simply goes against the facts.
Yes, some German Army officiers tried to distance themselves from the atrocities. Some even refused to issue orders for killing POWS. But these officers were in the minority and virtually all of the Germans who fought during WWII helped to keep the Nazi-organized killing machine alive by fighting to defend it.
quote:
Originally posted by Sikander
The whole point of the death camps was to remove the passion from the crime, so that fewer of their own people would break under the strain. |
The whole point of the death camps was to kill Jews and others efficiently and quickly. It was not about sparing the sensibilities of the German soldier.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:33
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You are still the bad guys.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:33
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quote:
Originally posted by TCO
Then the bad guys won... |
Enjoy your victory then. After 50 years or so, Iraqis, whose contry you just "liberated", would start to tell stories about American atrocities, muss murders, genocid, raped Iraqis wemen, children and elders.
quote:
you frigging slave of a bootlicker. |
FY too...
...and have a nice day.
Last edited by Serb on 15-01-2004 at 08:47
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Zylka
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quote:
Originally posted by Serb
Enjoy your victory then. After 50 years or so, Iraqis, whose contry you just "liberated", would start to tell stories about American atrocities, muss murders, genocid, raped Iraqis wemen, children and elders. |
Shut the **** up, you useless hack
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