14-01-2004 20:40									#1
	German atrocities in WWII, systematic or just like everyone else? Support Apolyton

This is for the continuation of the discussion started on the "What do you think is the baddest ass piece of military hardware? II" thread.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...334#post2636041

	14-01-2004 20:50									#2
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Of course they were (mostly) done systematically, and not like everywhere else. This is however no excuse for other atrocities....

	14-01-2004 20:54									#3
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Oh, and other atrocities could also be systematic.

	14-01-2004 21:01									#4
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Systematic.

But you are a sneaky ***** in phrasing the question - no one argued that Germany as a state was NOT systematically eradicating entire groups of people.

I for example said that there were, in fact, chivalrous acts and acts of sheer bravery, born from love of "Vaterland" or other motivations that are not sinister in essence. You in turn painted the WHOLE german nation with one black brush, ridiculing a book you HAVEN'T read just because it was written by a Waffen SS soldier.

	14-01-2004 21:16									#5
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Of course they were systematic. Germans are, by nature, a very organised people. Everybody talks about german concentration camps, for instance, as they were very well documented by the germans themselves. Few people know that Hitler actually imported this "technology" from Stalin, who did the same things, but with less compromising documents.
However, this doesn't make German atrocities worse than others, just more neatly planned.

	14-01-2004 21:41									#6
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Any survey of history will force you to arrive at the conclusion that the Nazi massacres were par for the course. Yes, they were more systematic than others, but welcome to the modern age where computers and other information technology made such systems possible. IBM provided state-of-he-art technology for cataloging the butchering.

Acknowledging that the Nazi holocaust wasn't so extraordinary in relation to the world's history of bloodshed in no way diminishes the horror of the crimes. It should, rather, cast a damning eye on humanity on a whole and all the societies (which amounts to every civilization) that has committed such nightmarish acts.

	14-01-2004 22:04									#7
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An actually continuation of the previous thread woutld be Soviet apolgists and delialists.

No one on that thread even remotely suggersted that the Nazis should not be held in contempt, just that the Soviets are on the same bar and for some odd reason people are willing to overlook them. Or in the case of the two over there deny anything ever happened.

	14-01-2004 22:09									#8
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It is nonsense to say that there is any other example in human history of groups of people running into millions having been rounded up, taken to places designed for the purpose and there exterminated.

There are instances of racial hatreds which have caused and continue to cause comparably large numbers of deaths (when aggregated over time) and there are instances of comparably large numbers of people dieing incidentally to the mass movement of peoples or to the achievement of some other purpose. Stalin's land reforms and the deaths among soldiers and civilians as the Germans and then the Russians advanced on the Eastern Front in WWII spring to mind.

But the holocaust is unique in the clarity and single mindedness of its motivation as well as its execution.

That this should have taken place in Germany - whose people have produced much of the world's finest music and much of its most penetrating philosophy is something over which I, among many others, have puzzled (to no particular effect) for decades.

	14-01-2004 22:23									#9
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Hardly,

The Mongul hordes slaughtered millions in India becasue they were a "waste of life," and ask any Russian or Chinese historian if the 10s of millions the horde killed there did not have any racial conotations. Caesar in Gaul killed 10 million in as many year as WWII. Hitler has his reputation becasue he was the most visible to the current genertions, and of course it is recorded for posterity in a manor that no other has ever been. The Soviets an Mao killed more poeple, and that is a fact, but they simply kept it under wraps better. Is that their get out of jail free card? I hope not.

Now genocide is another thing, and true Nazism has the deservedly infamous title of the worst in that category. However, killing innocent people is killing innocent people, genocide bieng no worse just a more organized manifestation, and it is not always organized. Genocide in Cambodia was hardly as organized as political murder in the Soviet Union or China. It is a diservice to the victims of other holocausts to down play their suffering becasue their oppressors malice was not in the form of a genocidal platform.

	14-01-2004 23:13									#10
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quote: But the holocaust is unique in the clarity and single mindedness of its motivation as well as its execution.

Agreeing with Boris here. People seem to think that something needs to be unique or special in order to be acknowledged an atrocity. It does not diminish the horror of the Holocaust by making comparisons to other forms of genocide but rather serves to illustrate a repeating theme in human society.

quote: whose people have produced much of the world's finest music and much of its most penetrating philosophy

Have you read Heart of Darkness? You will find some insights there, into the nature of 'civilisation'.

	14-01-2004 23:35									#11
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Well, I think East Street trader has a point in so far that I don´t wonder much about mass killings in ancient or medieval times, but more in modern times, after developments like humanism, enlightenment, or the idea of human rights.

Of course "killing innocent people is killing innocent people", no doubt.

But I think Trader didn´t want to down play the suffering of other victims, but he wanted to make clear the intentions of the Nazis to wipe out an entire people. It is therefore IMO easily defensible to see unique elements in the Holocaust.

	14-01-2004 23:40									#12
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Well, I think East Street trader has a point in so far that I don´t wonder much about mass killings in ancient or medieval times, but more in modern times, after developments like humanism, enlightenment, or the idea of human rights. Of course "killing innocent people is killing innocent people", no doubt. But I think Trader didn´t want to down play the suffering of other victims, but he wanted to make clear the intentions of the Nazis to wipe out an entire people. It is therefore IMO easily defensible to see unique elements in the Holocaust.

Easily defensible? You're going to argue that in not one instance of history has a leader wanted to wipe out a particular group of people and done so? Think harder.

And numbers don't matter either. 10 people dead or 1 million, its the same intention.

	14-01-2004 23:42									#13
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Easily defensible? You're going to argue that in not one instance of history has a leader wanted to wipe out a particular group people and done so? Think harder. And numbers don't matter either. 10 people dead or 1 million, its the same intention.

Re-read my post

	15-01-2004 06:51									#14
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn And numbers don't matter either. 10 people dead or 1 million, its the same intention.

Must... resist... stalin quote...

	15-01-2004 07:41									#15
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Some atrocities were pre-planned, systematic, some were ad hoc, responding to immediate circumstance, or turn of fate.

The infamous Kommissarbefehl or Kommissar Order, for instance, singling out certain military units for death even after capture. The ideological instructors of the Einsatzgruppen and S.S. were issued with a booklet 'The Subhuman' by the orders of S.S. Standartenfuhrer Gottlob Burger, which taught that the Slavs were not essentially human beings, with the habits of vermin (a similar tactic to that used first against German Jewry).

The Gestapo shot en masse Soviet prisoners of war, the Waffen S.S. massacred Russian civilians, and the S.S. tried to ensure that no ordinary German soldiers fraternized with Slav civilians.

Patroklos- I'd like to see a quote for the ideological intent of the Mongols in India- yes, they massacred inhabitants of cities that held out against them, or cities or peoples that revolted, but they also saved artisans, artists, engineers and scientists.

	15-01-2004 07:44									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Systematic. But you are a sneaky ***** in phrasing the question - no one argued that Germany as a state was NOT systematically eradicating entire groups of people. I for example said that there were, in fact, chivalrous acts and acts of sheer bravery, born from love of "Vaterland" or other motivations that are not sinister in essence. You in turn painted the WHOLE german nation with one black brush, ridiculing a book you HAVEN'T read just because it was written by a Waffen SS soldier.

Bull.

I have never said that all German people committed atrocities. The German jews obviously did not.

What I have said is that the German soldiers in the Waffen-SS and the German Army routinely committed atrocities and that these atrocities were endorsed and encouraged by the German government.

Meanwhile, you claim that the Waffen-SS were chivalrous. Okay, prove it.

As for all this "Oh they were just patriotic", that doesn't change the fact that the Germany Army and SS in Russia killed millions of civilians and POWs behind the battlelines.

	15-01-2004 07:47									#17
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And let's not forget the German army helped out with atrocities when requested.

	15-01-2004 07:53									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Hitler has his reputation becasue he was the most visible to the current genertions, and of course it is recorded for posterity in a manor that no other has ever been. The Soviets an Mao killed more poeple, and that is a fact, but they simply kept it under wraps better. Is that their get out of jail free card? I hope not.

Just because you repeated claim "it's a fact" doesn't make it true.

Hitler was responsible for the death of 40 million people, more than Mao and Stalin. These deaths were the result of a deliberate policies: policies of war, terror and genocide.

The millions murdered by Stalin died because of policies of terror, but also a result of the war started by Hitler. Had Hitler not started the war, many of these people would not have died. So Hitler and the Nazis are equally, if not more, responsible.

Many of the people who died during Mao's time, died because poor policy decisions rather than a deliberate policy of murder. To include Mao with Hitler and Stalin is simply ridiculous.

	15-01-2004 08:14									#19
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I'd say the IJA stands alone in brutality and atrocity. They even scared the Nazis.

	15-01-2004 08:14									#20
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In the "major outrages" thread, I listed what I thought were the 5 major criteria for an outrage to be recognized. The Holocaust met all five of them.

	15-01-2004 08:20									#21
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Germans are not real people. They are just dehumanized ragdolls to die in our ww2 movies. They exist to die for us.

	15-01-2004 08:29									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I'd say the IJA stands alone in brutality and atrocity. They even scared the Nazis.

They scared Rabe, who was an industrialist/opportunist Nazi, not an ideological one.

However, the Nazi leadership in Berlin saw fit to sweep Rabe's report under the rug and keep him silent on Nanking. I suspect they were scared the insane brutality fo the IJA would revolt Germans against an ally, but I doubt the actual massacres made them feel bad.

	15-01-2004 08:37									#23
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It's hobson's choice but I think Hitler was worse than Stalin in the mass murderer/evil stakes. The racism is so awful. Not worse by much though.

	15-01-2004 10:48									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I'd say the IJA stands alone in brutality and atrocity. They even scared the Nazis.

Nanking Massacre

	15-01-2004 11:22									#25
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Well the IJA brutality was certainly bad but it was more feudal than modern and more by accident than design in some cases (like mistreatment of POW's). So I don't think it's in the same class as the sleak modern German murder machine.

The chilling difference is Nazi horrors were always intentional, meticulously planned, industrialised and used the latest technology. This is what sets them apart and troubles thinkers so much - modernisation was supposed to overcome barbarism and irrational atavistic hatred but the Nazis showed this wasn't true.

	15-01-2004 11:50									#26
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"And this also," said Marlow suddenly, "has been one of the dark places of the earth."

	15-01-2004 12:03									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Hardly, The Mongul hordes slaughtered millions in India becasue they were a "waste of life," and ask any Russian or Chinese historian if the 10s of millions the horde killed there did not have any racial conotations. Caesar in Gaul killed 10 million in as many year as WWII. Hitler has his reputation becasue he was the most visible to the current genertions, and of course it is recorded for posterity in a manor that no other has ever been. The Soviets an Mao killed more poeple, and that is a fact, but they simply kept it under wraps better. Is that their get out of jail free card? I hope not.

Where did you get these figures? The whole population of Gaul was like 3-4 million during Roman times.

	15-01-2004 12:05									#28
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German atrocities were systematic, just like everyone else's.

	15-01-2004 12:18									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai As for all this "Oh they were just patriotic", that doesn't change the fact that the Germany Army and SS in Russia killed millions of civilians and POWs behind the battlelines.

I'm tired of this. No one claims Waffen SS were chivalrous. They rand the death camps, for crissakes. The fighting units, otoh, were mostly brave, tenacious in difficulty and sometimes chivalrous (and sometimes "took pot shots at prisoners"). They were NOT a monolithic sea of Castle of Wolfenstein Fritzes.

	15-01-2004 12:37									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Saras I'm tired of this. No one claims Waffen SS were chivalrous. They rand the death camps, for crissakes. The fighting units, otoh, were mostly brave, tenacious in difficulty and sometimes chivalrous

Saras, I've asked you several times before, and I'll ask you again: provide factual examples of how the Waffen-SS were "sometimes chivalrous." Provide us with examples of their sense of fair play, their compassion, their courtesy.