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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Why is the question we have to ask. Europe was supposed to be a civilized place. The whole of Europe was Christian and most of it lived under the rule of law and had so for hundreds of years.
I can only contrast the relatively civilized conduct of most Americans to the conduct of virtually everyone else.
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Don't get on your high horse on this one. What happened in Germany and Japan during the 30s and WWII could easily happen in the States, or any other country.
One of the main reasons why were the Germans so willing to murder millions was Nazi propaganda? For six years before WWII, the Nazi propaganda created fear and hatred towards Jews, communists and other so-called "undesirables".
The constant repetition of the Nazi lies, built on existing prejudices, convinced the Germans that they were the "master race" and that Jews and Eastern Europeans were sub-human. Once this fear and hatred was developed it was easy to create killing machines.
The same thing could happen in the US. Many Americans are afraid of Black Americans. It would be easy to convince these people that all blacks are criminals, ignorant, lazy and dangerous. After years of proganda, these people could then be turned against black people. Mind you, the democracy of the US makes it difficult for a Nazi-like party to gain power, but the foundations are there to create the killing hate..
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:33
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quote:
[SIZE=1] Originally posted by Ned [/SIZE
Ask some of our German posters here what they think of Bomber Harris. |
Bomber Command and the concentration camps are completely different.
The use of mass bombings was founded on the belief that it would shorten the war by destroying the other nation's military capacity.
The concentration camps, murder of POWS, etc, had no military purpose.
And if you condemn the Brits bombing attacks then you must also condemn the American bombing attacks.
By the way, you claim that the Brits committed mass rapes. Admit that you're wrong about that.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
You're ignoring the culturally based acceptance of authoritarianism present in both Japanese and German societies, something that doesn't exist in the US, UK and other countries. |
I mentioned that American democracy would make it difficult for a Nazi-like party to gain power.
Americans are more anti-authority than other countries. That attitude is less prevalent in democratic countries like the Britain, France, Canada, etc.
But I think this attitude could be diminished through affective "marketing" of an authoritarian party.
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:33
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quote:
One of the main reasons why were the Germans so willing to murder millions was Nazi propaganda? For six years before WWII, the Nazi propaganda created fear and hatred towards Jews, communists and other so-called "undesirables".
The constant repetition of the Nazi lies, built on existing prejudices, convinced the Germans that they were the "master race" and that Jews and Eastern Europeans were sub-human. Once this fear and hatred was developed it was easy to create killing machines.
The same thing could happen in the US. Many Americans are afraid of Black Americans. It would be easy to convince these people that all blacks are criminals, ignorant, lazy and dangerous. After years of proganda, these people could then be turned against black people. Mind you, the democracy of the US makes it difficult for a Nazi-like party to gain power, but the foundations are there to create the killing hate. |
I don't buy that either.
An ideology of hatred and oppression gained power in a young democracy which lacked the checks to stop it. The Nazis made sure to look after the 'average' German and so maintained support, even though thugs were running things in a way that most would not have approved, if they had known it AND been free to speak of it. I think it is telling that the real slaughter did not begin until well into the war and was carried out in occupied territories.
In the end, I think the German people were nearly as much the victims of the Nazis as were the other claimants to grievances.
I doubt very much that the same things could happen today in Germany, or America.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:33
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Saras: That description provides no factual examples of the SS being chivalrous.
What we have instead is an SS veteran claiming 50 years after the fact that he and his comrades were great guys and that it was them other folks that committed the atrocities.
Surely you recognise that the author cannot be a neutral observer and that the author has a motive for making the Waffen SS look like ordinary soldiers.
But anyways, why don't you quote the book and provide us with an example of Waffen SS chivalry.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:33
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NYE: That's a big part of this whole debate. Years ago, I also used to think that the Waffen SS were just soldiers, but the more I've read, the more it has become apparent that the Waffen-SS committed atrocities on a routine basis. The German Army was also responsible for excessive atrocities, such as the three million Russian POWs who died in captivity.
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Cruddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Molly, the Japanese were harsh on prisoners. Very harsh. But except for Nanking, I never heard of callous and wanton killing of men women and children by the Japanese.
I was shocked by what the Europeans did to each other in WWII. I thought that that was over -- forever -- then along come Milosevic.
There is something very wrong about Europe and I do not know that it has been fixed. |
Erm... possibly the fact that we are human beings?
And human beings, while capable of some marvellous things, are also capable of great harm.
I'm not going to suggest that Europe is perfect.
I am going to suggest you've got your head up your behind if you really think one sort of human being is better than another.
I mean, what are the words... "We hold these truths to be self evident, all men are born equal" (or free or capitalist or Republican - can't remember).
Those sentiments look bloody silly compared to saying "we don't care about anywhere else but home".
As to the thread question, I would say NAZI (Not German) atrocities were systematic, and NONE of the other participants can claim they did not systematically kill civilians.
The French Resistance did. The Brits did (Dresden for sure). America dropped 2 atmoic bombs (as if the first one wasn't enough). Russia's final push into Germany has spawned many tales of horror.
And what about little old Italy's behaviour in East Africa, eh? WMD use - a hanging offence in today's world.
War is Hell, Ned. Don't you believe it's good. Sometimes it is necessary... but it is NEVER a picnic.
Last edited by Cruddy on 16-01-2004 at 15:49
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:33
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quote:
Not that they were a good bunch of drinking buddies, but there was a difference between the Waffen (or fighting) SS and the camp guards, death squads, and the Gestapo. |
Well... the lower ranks of the early Waffen SS were built out of volunteering camp guards, so at least there was no significant difference. The Gestapo was a completely different beast, though.
Unlike the ordinary Wehrmacht (which was infested by doubters), the Waffen SS consisted mainly of brainwashed volunteers. A part of it, mostly in the lesser ranks, were mere guards (thugs) from the Nazi prisons and concentration camps, who gladly volunteered for the idea to bring their "master race properties" eastward. Others were highly educated specialists (even some men of science and art, perverted by the ideology), who would never dirty themselves by laying hands on PoWs (which was the domain of the thugs). But they had one feature in common: they were absolute fanatics, following their leaders without doubts and questions. They had but 2 deities - Hitler and Himmler. And they were much better fed, equipped and armed than the ordinary soldiers. They were helt as elite troops, at least in the first years of the war. Among them were the most successful soldiers, such as the Panzer ace Michael Wittmann. And yes - the higher ranks (not the thugs, obviously) had some kind of "Code of Chivalry", at least towards people they considered as their likes. That list was pretty short, considering that a lot of them despised even the ordinary Wehrmacht.
There's a very good book giving insight in the way of thinking of a high ranked SS officer. It's Robert Merle's novel "Death is My Profession", describing the career of Rudolf Hoess (in the book named Rudolf Lang) from a Free Corps volunteer (post-WW1) up to the commander of the Auschwitz extermination camp. It's not about the Waffen SS, but anyway. Hoess is descriped as a man, who is doing his duty well by all means - no matter what it is, and not even asking. Who asks, is a doubter and there's no room for doubters inside the SS. He did what he was told - rational, efficient and without emotion. And not thinking about good or bad - The leadership ordered it and therefor it must be good. The conclusion of the book is - yes, Hoess did nothing but his duty - and exactly that made him a monster.
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Cruddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Sikander
Let's get this one straight, we dropped napalm on citizens and agent orange on triple canopy forest and agent blue along the rivers. |
Never even heard of agent blue before... but I'll be the first to admit there's loads of things I don't know.
I also didn't think the US was that discriminate about what was dropped where in Indo China - plenty GI's dead from that crap too.
Give my regards to my Aunty down in Mork 'n Mindy town... and is the annual Bong Fest still going?
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Patroklos
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Back home in good ole Norfolk VA
Dec 2001
time: 05:33
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I assume you mean Soviets above? If that were the case yes we would nuke them to hell (as would all our nuclear allies). That is the major tenent of nuclear strategy, that there is no benefit to using them, one or 100, because it is suicide. That of course is why there was no WWIII and you and I are still alive.
While the Btits do not belong anywhere near the category of the Russians or Nazis, and I am not sure why the discusion went that way, it should be noted tha the British colonial troops had the WORST record in killing POWS (to include Canadians). They just never made it to the rear period. Even factoring the Russians in the Geramans treated the POWs number wise with care these groups. 1005 dead is bette than 505, though admittedly they hardly had as many POWs to worry about like the Germans. (No I don't have the source off the top of my head, nore am I inclided to do so until some of you decide to produce a sorce or two).
And though it is not on the level of genocide, I think the British went a little crazy on their bombing tactics. How exactly do you bomb a specific factory in the age of WWII at night, as that is when the British bombed? You don't. You blanket the city and hope you hit something valuable. Not exactly something to be proud of, especially since night raids like Dresden were in the last month of the war when it wasn't needed, and it had long been unecessary to bomb at night.
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Well... the lower ranks of the early Waffen SS were built out of volunteering camp guards, so at least there was no significant difference. The Gestapo was a completely different beast, though.
Unlike the ordinary Wehrmacht (which was infested by doubters), the Waffen SS consisted mainly of brainwashed volunteers. A part of it, mostly in the lesser ranks, were mere guards (thugs) from the Nazi prisons and concentration camps, who gladly volunteered for the idea to bring their "master race properties" eastward. Others were highly educated specialists (even some men of science and art, perverted by the ideology), who would never dirty themselves by laying hands on PoWs (which was the domain of the thugs). But they had one feature in common: they were absolute fanatics, following their leaders without doubts and questions. They had but 2 deities - Hitler and Himmler. And they were much better fed, equipped and armed than the ordinary soldiers. They were helt as elite troops, at least in the first years of the war. Among them were the most successful soldiers, such as the Panzer ace Michael Wittmann. And yes - the higher ranks (not the thugs, obviously) had some kind of "Code of Chivalry", at least towards people they considered as their likes. That list was pretty short, considering that a lot of them despised even the ordinary Wehrmacht.
There's a very good book giving insight in the way of thinking of a high ranked SS officer. It's Robert Merle's novel "Death is My Profession", describing the career of Rudolf Hoess (in the book named Rudolf Lang) from a Free Corps volunteer (post-WW1) up to the commander of the Auschwitz extermination camp. It's not about the Waffen SS, but anyway. Hoess is descriped as a man, who is doing his duty well by all means - no matter what it is, and not even asking. Who asks, is a doubter and there's no room for doubters inside the SS. He did what he was told - rational, efficient and without emotion. And not thinking about good or bad - The leadership ordered it and therefor it must be good. The conclusion of the book is - yes, Hoess did nothing but his duty - and exactly that made him a monster. |
A fair and accurate description of the Waffen SS alone would require a very long article. Suffice it to say that almost any generalizing comment will fall by the wayside as the war ground on, because the SS were always changing and expanding. The foreign formations for instance were a very large component of the Waffen SS, but obviously made up no part of the early units. By the end of the war many of the replacements to Waffen SS units were simple conscripts (usually very young) who did not sign up to be in the SS and wouldn't have met the criteria for an SS private at any time previously.
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16-01-2004 12:45
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