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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:33
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Tingkai, that is true. The Waffen SS did bad things, as did other soldiers. Maybe they did more, most likely they did. However, you are aware that Canadians had episodes of 'not taking prisoners', yes? |
Yes, an old RCN vet told me how he was working on a landing craft during D-Day and saw some german prisoners being marched behind a sandbank. He ran up the beach hoping to get some souviners. The germans had all been killed.
The difference, however, is these crimes were not condoned within the Canadian Army and when these crimes occurred it was on the frontlines (where it could be explained, but not justified, as actions in the heat of battle).
The Germans shot prisoners in the rear areas. Russians soldiers in POW camps were tortured and murdered. The Germans killed these people in "cold blood".
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Unlike the ordinary Wehrmacht (which was infested by doubters), the Waffen SS consisted mainly of brainwashed volunteers.
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This is important to note. The Germans were not naturally evil. They were brainwashed; some more than others. Years of Nazi proganda, that built on latent racist attitudes, created cold-blooded killing machines.
None of the Allied countries, including Russia, had years of hate propaganda, although after the German invasion, the Soviet government played up the German atrocities to the full and created the mob that raped its way through Germany,
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Sikander
Hamburg, Berlin, Dresden....
Unless you consider burning thousands of non-combatants alive to fall short of an attrocity. |
It is a question of intent. The Allied bombing raid were done with the intent of crippling the German war industry.
The Germans murdering civilians and POW was with intent of genocide.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
it should be noted tha the British colonial troops had the WORST record in killing POWS (to include Canadians). |
Again, another wild claim without any substantiation.
I think you're lying through your teeth.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
But I hardly see why I have to provide copious example contrary to what you say and you don't produce a thing. Honeslty, find me a competant WWII historian who states your view. |
You have to provide the proof because you're the one claiming the Waffen SS were chivalrous, yet you have yet to provide any proof to back up your bullsh!t.
Meanwhile, I have provided numerous examples that they were not.
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shawnmmcc
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Just to set the record straight on bomber Harris and Dresden. Unlike the US boming campaign against the factories, the Brits realized they were going to be doing essentially area bombing and hoping to do generalized destruction to the infrastructure of the area, hopefully getting the factory.
Hamburg changed all that. A mult-day raid using both British night-and American day-boming, they ended up with a fortunate, and also horrific, happenstance. The Brits torched the city, and then US high-explosive (HE) took out the fire crews. This is oversimplified, but hey I'm trying to keep my posts short. It resulted in a firestorm, essentially a tornado of fire that incinerated everything, and turned underground bomb shelters into slow cookers and/or oxygen free chambers, they aren't too sure which killed first and it may have varied.
Well, they had discovered how to destroy a city, serendipitously. The British head of the unified bomber command, Air Chief Marshall Harris, decided to attack Dresden to break the back of the German civilian morale. Dresden had been a tourist town, and a lot of refugees had gone there because it had absolutely nothing of military value.
First off, that was in total violation of the Geneva accords. Secondly, it failed, please note my sig. In fact it strengthened the resolve of the German people. Kurt Vonnegut was an American POW who got to help clean up after Dresden, one of the most monstrous civilian-only attacks of the war. It was a war crime, targeting ALMOST ONLY civilians, women and children, with malice of forethought. Vonnegut's description is horrifying.
Niven and Pournelle got it right in "Inferno" a novel why an aetheist sci-fi writer dies and goes to Dante's hell. Harris is in the eigth circle. The difference between that and Hamburg, and the US firebombing of Japanese cities, is that Hamburg had industrial targets, and Japan had deliberately spread out it's production through civil areas so it couldn't be targeted. Thus you have to take out the city to get the scattering of small workshops. Dresden was a terror raid, pure and simple, DOCUMENTED AS SUCH BY BOMBER COMMAND ITSELF, and done deliberately with a brutal, industrial efficiency. They carefully dropped street busters, large 1000-2000 pound bombs with delayed fuses, to kill the fire crews who responded. It doesn't make the Brits, or US, as bad as the Nazis. But we do have our war criminals, it's just that we won.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:33
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I wouldn't question that Dresden was a terror raid, but the allied air crew were led to believe that they were taking out German military industry. It should also be noted that the Commonwealth bomber crews hated Harris. They called him Butcher Harris because he sent them into the meat grinder.
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
Bomber Command and the concentration camps are completely different.
The use of mass bombings was founded on the belief that it would shorten the war by destroying the other nation's military capacity.
The concentration camps, murder of POWS, etc, had no military purpose.
And if you condemn the Brits bombing attacks then you must also condemn the American bombing attacks.
By the way, you claim that the Brits committed mass rapes. Admit that you're wrong about that. |
I think I said killing/rape, which is true when either is true, not both are true.
As to the US, we used daylight precision bombing and attempted to avoid civilian targets. Hamburg, Cologne, Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were exceptions, and many if not most Americans condemn our actions/participation in these attrocities.
It is amazing that you Brits justify mass slaughter of women and children by your Bomber Command.
When you said, "The use of mass bombings was founded on the belief that it would shorten the war by destroying the other nation's military capacity," you justified Britain's carpet bombing of cities with the strategic goal of the US Army Air Force. Britain's goal was entirely different. It was
TERRORISM!
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Patroklos
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Back home in good ole Norfolk VA
Dec 2001
time: 05:33
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Actually Kenobi, it wasn't meant to say anything about you, it was just a generic lame comment. Sorry if you too offense, no foul intended.
Tingkai,
You claim "bullshit" on everything and then chopping up quotes from our sources (then lieing about it) isnot you providing proof of YOUR position. You have been doing nothing but stating your opinion. You have not mentioned one book, journel, article, or any referance of any kind on this thread is support of what you say. You have asked for our sources, and we have given you plenty. We ask you for the same effort to verify your ridiculous claims and you, well, just ignore the posts and keep *****ing.
I hardly feel the need to suppy you with anymore referances untill you decide to participate as well. And attacking our respected sources is fine, unfortunetly you seem to be confused on how to do this. You find your own source that has the same respect but says the contrary.
I know you are not going to do this as
1. You won't find any sources that say why you are spouting above.
2. You know what will happen if you do go looking for them. You will discover what we have been telling you all along.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
As to the US, we used daylight precision bombing and attempted to avoid civilian targets. Hamburg, Cologne, Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were exceptions, and many if not most Americans condemn our actions/participation in these attrocities.
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So the fire bombing of Tokyo was another one of those exceptions, was it? And the fire bombing of other Japanese cities were yet more exceptions?
You're living in a dreamworld- there was no such thing as precision bombing in the Second World War- and just like the pillaging of cities which resisted siege in earlier times, and just like massed human wave attacks in WWI, mass bombing of cities was a tactic/strategy accepted by all sides. Guernica was the theory put into practice, then Prague was threatened with the same fate if the Czechoslovaks did not cave in, then came Warsaw, Rotterdam and if the Dutch had not surrendered, Amsterdam would have suffered the same kind of indiscriminate bombing.
The Germans deliberately set out to destroy British cultural targets in the Baedeker raids- the city I was born in used to have a three spired cathedral in the English Perpendicular style, a preserved mediaeval centre where the Coventry Mystery Plays were performed, mediaeval almshouses and a guildhall- not any more.
After that, what do you think the Allied response should have been, to a nation that turned its own citizens into lampshades, soap and ash? Just say, o.k., we won't kill any civilians, just hit factories? And who exactly is it who works in factories?
http://www.billbrandt.com/Research/cathedrals.html
http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/meltin...0/arp/arp4.html
Any Prime Minister who responded to German bombing of British cities with a hands off approach for fear of killing civilians, would have been hounded out of office- if it had been a nation state that had ordered the murder of those civilians on September 11th and the destruction of the World Trade Centre, what do you think the American response would have been, Ned?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1892714.stm
And patroklos- please come up with a site which purports to detail atrocities by Allied troops- I'm sure we'd all be fascinated by anything along the lines of an Allied Lidice, Oradour-sur-Glane or Kharkov. I can't actually bring to mind any Allied Einsatzgruppen, but perhaps you know better.
It should be noted- the Germans killed prisoners of war (especially Russians) out of hand, and purposefully starved them to death, worked them to death, and allowed them to die of treatable diseases.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Would you rather the US let them go and then the British scooping them up a month later? It may have taken a while, but the American colony on the Phillipines always had the goal of independance after modernization as its goal. It was indeed a strange colony, where some Filipinos were in positions of greater power than some Americans in the same organizations. |
Right. And how many Filipinos died to achieve that 'ultimate' goal, and how long did that independence take? And oh, gosh, was a pliant Third World dictator one of those Filipinos in a position of greater power, Ferdinand Marcos, by any chance?
Spare me your moral relativism- imperialism in American drag is just as obnoxious as any other kind. The notion that Great Britain would have 'scooped' them up is horse dung- like it 'scooped' up Mexico, Chile, Argentina, Peru, et cetera, et cetera?
The fact that American history books have to rename the struggle for Filipino independence an insurrection gives the game away.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
My point is that I don't think Americans would willingly follow orders to gas millions of people to death. Our culture has "programmed" us to automatically question and resist abuses of power like that. |
Nope. With the right incentive and conditioning, any nationality could do it.
'Philippine military deaths are estimated at 20,000 while civilian deaths numbered in 250,000 to 1,000,000 Filipinos. U.S. attacks into the countryside often included scorched earth campaigns where entire villages were burned and destroyed, torture (water cure) and the concentration of civilians into "protected zones". Many of these civilian casualties resulted from disease and famine. Reports of the execution of U.S. soldiers taken prisoner by the Filipinos led to disproportionate reprisals by American forces. Many American officers and soldiers called war a "n/igger killing business".
In 1914, Dean C. Worcester, U.S. Secretary of the Interior for the Philippines (1901-1913) described "the regime of civilization and improvement which started with American occupation and resulted in developing naked savages into cultivated and educated men." '
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine-American_War
One might be forgiven for thinking he was talking about
Native Americans, circa 1799, rather than, say, Manila in the 1900s.
http://showme.missouri.edu/~socbrent/tuskegee.htm
All you need is to believe that the other person is a savage, uncivilized, subhuman, or simply not like you. Then you can use all sorts of justifications- Manifest Destiny, the Monroe Doctrine, scientific research, whatever. How the Tuskeegee study differs in any major respect from Japanese cholera, hypothermia or low pressure experiments on prisoners of war and Chinese civilians I'm unable to determine- except of course, that it was Americans conducting scientific research on unwilling uninformed African Americans.
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16-01-2004 17:49
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