17-01-2004 05:33									#151
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so whats evil? breaking the 10 comandments?

	17-01-2004 05:45									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman so whats evil? breaking the 10 comandments?

Not to someone who is not interested in religion, like me. However, some of the moral precepts (as opposed to the religious nonsense) I believe hold true for most people- not killing (except in self-defence) not stealing (except if you have no other option, and were starving).

Evil is so vague and ill-defined a term anyway- to a Reformation Calvinist, the Pope in Rome could embody evil, and to a Catholic a Unitarian might be evil.

To me, it's the moral equivalent of arguing over whether or not to break a boiled egg at the big end or the little end.

I find the wanton destruction or pollution of ecosystems thousands of years' old evil- to others it's apparently the price of progress. A strange kind of progress to take a dump where you eat....

	17-01-2004 05:57									#153
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yes, and many people would disagree with you. some slightly, some entirely. Most people have their own individual definition of 'evil'. Truth is that there is no correct definition of evil, just like there is no correct passage of time. It is relative Unless, of course, you would like to argue that what you think is evil is the true definition of evil

	17-01-2004 06:00									#154
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro I don´t think in such simplistic ways But I agree fully with Molly´s post(s) - I think in the end everyone is basically capable of doing evil things, but it is fortunately not a natural law that we all have to do such things.

i too mostly agree with molly's post

only instead of everyone being capable of doing evil things, everyone is capable of doing things that others perceive as evil (i.e. i have sex with my gf, some religious right shmo would condemn me to hell, where as someone else would shrug, and perhaps a few would worship the act as holy)

	17-01-2004 06:20									#155
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Molly, I don't know whether the US would have done had NY City been bombed as was London. I hardly think, though, that we would have lined up our German POWs and mowed them down. The issue was discussed, here for example, in the leadup to the Iraq war. If Saddam hit us with a nuke, would we respond by nuking Baghdad. I said then, and I really believe this, that we would not.

As to Japan, we dropped leaflets warning of impending attacks. It is unfortunate that so many Japanese simply ignored our warnings (or were they forced to ingore them by the military?). The sole exception were Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which is why I lumped them in with Hamburg and Dresden.

Molly, you will admit, will you not, that Britain's response to Germany's attacks on London and Coventry far exceeded the scope of those attacks. I have no idea whether anyone ever considered negotiating a cease fire with Hitler on bombing civilians. He might have taken the deal when the tide turned against Germany.

But by then, Britain was more into blood revenge, somewhat similar to the motivation of the Russians.

	17-01-2004 06:24									#156
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Kramerman:

Your posts negate the presence of evil whatsoever. If evil is merely what others think of someone, how then do you account for such atrocities as have appeared in this thread?

Would you go to a Jew and tell him that the Nazis are only evil because the Jews believe they are evil? That to another person, neither nazi nor Jew, their actions could be good?

Just because we do not believe our own actions to be wrong, it does not make them so. We can hurt people in many ways especially when we believe that we are in the right.

The reason I quoted Heart of Darkness in the thread is because it makes two arguments about the nature of man and evil, first, that evil has always been a part of man, and secondly, it shows you the presence of evil, as a real physical force.

	17-01-2004 07:01									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Ned As to Japan, we dropped leaflets warning of impending attacks. It is unfortunate that so many Japanese simply ignored our warnings (or were they forced to ingore them by the military?). The sole exception were Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which is why I lumped them in with Hamburg and Dresden.

Are you saying that the USAAF dropped warnings of conventional bomber raids and neglected to do so for the 2 nuclear raids?

	17-01-2004 07:20									#158
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Are you saying that the USAAF dropped warnings of conventional bomber raids and neglected to do so for the 2 nuclear raids?

Yes. I think this is the case, although I am not sure about Nagasaki.

Hiroshima was a major exception to the prior rule of dropping leaflets.

Consider, that the major attacks on Japanese cities occurred after Dresden and the huge negative reaction of the American people when they learned what happened. By then, the government knew that it could not deliberately target women and children and justify it in any way to the American people.

Thus, when Truman announced the use of the A-bomb, he said that we had attacked a "military base." He could not tell the people what really happened.

	17-01-2004 07:24									#159
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Ben, one of things I really appreciate about you is your moral clarity and consistency. You do not excuse bad behavior by point to other equally bad behavior by others. Bravo!

	17-01-2004 07:27									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Ned As to Japan, we dropped leaflets warning of impending attacks. It is unfortunate that so many Japanese simply ignored our warnings (or were they forced to ingore them by the military?). The sole exception were Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which is why I lumped them in with Hamburg and Dresden.

Please explain me how the warnings make the action afterwards any better. If I going to kill my neighbor, but warn him before, it doesn´t mean the killing is justified or that it is his own fault (cause he ignored my warning).

	17-01-2004 07:28									#161
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I do not know the details of the war in the Phillippines. Perhaps we Americans do not study it for a reason.

But I can tell you one of the reasons we turned against the war in Vietnam were scenes like the one shown on the nightly news where we napalmed a village and witnessed burned women and children running down the road a few minutes later. No American wants to be associated with this kind of war.

	17-01-2004 07:58									#162
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Please explain me how the warnings make the action afterwards any better. If I going to kill my neighbor, but warn him before, it doesn´t mean the killing is justified or that it is his own fault (cause he ignored my warning).

The "action" was the firebombing on cities in order to destroy wooden factories that were interspersed widely among the civilian areas.

The purpose of the leaflets was to avoid civilian casualties.

The warning was not to the effect that we are going to kill you. It was to the effect that we are going to bomb HERE. You should get out of the way.

	17-01-2004 08:00									#163
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I don´t know if I should find that sad or rather funny.

	17-01-2004 08:06									#164
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro I don´t know if I should find that sad or rather funny.

It does illustrate the difference between Dresden and Tokyo. Dresden was about terrorism.

	17-01-2004 08:07									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Ned No American wants to be associated with this kind of war.

Which is why we no longer get to see those kinds of images.

	17-01-2004 08:10									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Your posts negate the presence of evil whatsoever.

yup, that was pretty much the point.

quote: If evil is merely what others think of someone, how then do you account for such atrocities as have appeared in this thread?

i dont know what you are saying.
But, i will say that what you think is evil another may find sacred. I mean, you think the holocaust was evil, right? an extremist neo-nazi could find that very same act (the one you find extremely evil) holier than holy and worship it everyday. So what is it? Evil or holy? it is either-or, depending on your perspective.

quote: Would you go to a Jew and tell him that the Nazis are only evil because the Jews believe they are evil? That to another person, neither nazi nor Jew, their actions could be good?

again im not quite sure what your saying. but yes, the nazis actions could be seen as good. maybe not by you, or me, but it is naive to think how we define right and wrong, good and evil, to be the absolute definition

quote: Just because we do not believe our own actions to be wrong, it does not make them so. We can hurt people in many ways especially when we believe that we are in the right.

what does that have to do with anything? who said hurting people was wrong? As frimly as you believe that hurting people is wrong, i am sure there is another being somewhere in this universe that thinks hurting people is a holy act. I mean, i bet you think human sacrifice is a barbaric act right? I bet you think that is dispicable. But, you know what? Just because you THINK that, doesnt mean that it is so. Some people happen to think otherwise

	17-01-2004 09:41									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Soviet Gulag (1917-87) -Executions during collectivization, etc. 61,911,000 * ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****

What a crap. Do you have sence of logic? Can you think? Can you make calculations?
I doubt, because otherwise you wouldn't repeat this absolutely stupid figure.
This figure is good for morons who can't think and make simple calculations. I can tell you where some bullsh!ters can take similar number.

The population of Russian Empire in 1897 (without Poland and Finland)- 117 133 500

The population of Russian Empire in 1914 (without Poland and Finland)- 162 890 200

162 890 200 - 117 133 500= 45 756 700

45 756 700/17=2 691 570.5

So yearly population growth was aproximately 2.6 millions.

1941-1914= 27 years

27*2.6=70.2 -

162,89+70.2= 233.09

So population of Soviet Union in 1941 should have been 233,09 millions, but in fact the population of Soviet Union in 1941 was only 195.4 millions!!!

So, every bullsh!ter makes conclusion- THE REST WERE KILLED BY SOVIETS!!!
233,09-195,4=37.69
And typicall bullsh!ter start to shout: I'm a gineus!!! Between 1914-1941 Soviets KILLED 37.69 MILLIONS of THEIR OWN PEOPLE!!!

(As you see you can't get your absolutely stupid, ridiculos, insane, idiotic figure of 61,911,000 even using such stupid, ridiculos, insane, idiotic aproach every bullsh!ter use to maximaze number of people killed by Stalin. You can't because it's pure mathematics, and Soviets can't killed so much people, because they never had so much people).

Furthermore, this 37.69 millions figure that every bullsh!ter can gain using such omniscient aproach, is pure bullsh!t also.
Because:
In 1914 Russia was a properious Empire, but next years bring a disaster for it. World war one, civil war, foreign intervention, hunger and epidemies took 10,3 millions of Russian lives. And from demographic point of view most valuable lives- people of reproductive age, mostly young males.
After those years of disasters, Russia wasn't a prosperious Empire anymore. The country LAID IN RUINS. edited: As result of Civil war, MILLIONS of Russians migrated to the west.
All those events at least halved the population growth, and decreased population number.
If you'll take this into consideration, you'll see that the fact that population of Russia since 1914 increased with 43.1 millions and was 195.4 millions in 1941 (with average yearly growth of 1.6 million) it's VERY good result.

quote: Nazi State (1933-45) -6 mil Jews, 5 mil Poles, 10 mil others 20,946,000 ***** *****

Another proof of sh!tiness of your sources.
10 mil others
Where is 26,6 millions of Soviet people killed by nazi during invasion in Soviet Union? Only about 10 millions of them were soldiers, the rest were civilians.

More probably it's my last reply to you. You don't want to know truth. Keep living in your fantasy world.

	17-01-2004 09:58									#168
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Uh, this is a gross simplification- for a better breakdown of the figures see S. Maksudov, 'Losses Suffered by the Population of the U.S.S.R., 1918-1958' in 'The Samizadat Register' ed. R. Medvedyev,publ. London, 1981, also M. Ellmann, S. Maksudov, 'Soviet Deaths in the Great Patriotic War: a note', Europe-Asia Studies vol. 46, no.4 (1994) pp. 671-80*

I have no idea who is S. Maksudov, but "Samizdat" sounds pretty funny- it means "self-made bullsh!t". I wouldn't trust much to that kind of source. Roi Medvedev is well-known bullsh!ter whose figures and pure lies were criticized thousand times.

quote: Which gives a gross total (median estimate) of 54 million.

Molly, the problem of your "western" society is that you don't want to know truth. You already have "truth" that you need- Soviets killed millions and were evil freaks, now some morons even adds to this that they were even more evil than nazi.
In your "advanced", "democratic" society you never print books that show thing in a bit different light. You do not need other point of view about this subject, because you already made up your mind. You don't print books of authors who try to make objective research, and prefer to print books of any bulldh!ter who says about dozen of millions of people killed by Stalin (the greater the number, the better for you). I doubt in any of your countries the book of Yuri Mukhin "The murder of Stalin and Beria" was ever translated and printed. You don't need such books. And it's pretty accurate translation- it's about murder, "historical murder" (if I can say so) of Stalin, committed by Khrushev.
Anyone who have different opinion about our, (DAMN, WHEN THE HELL YOU'LL UNDERSTAND THAT IT"S OUR HISTORY! IT'S OUR ANCESTERS SUFFERED DURING STALIN'S TIMES, NOT YOURS. AND WE AS NO ONE ELSE WHANT TO KNOW TRUTH ABOUT THOSE TIMES) history, you call Stalin apologist or red as$ commie.

	17-01-2004 10:02									#169
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Serb
Nothing else needs to be said

	17-01-2004 10:07									#170
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it's always funny the "agloamerican" propaganda against bad "commies". They HAD to make you look like freaks so they could justify their shortcomings and still unpayed crimes. The funny thing is that some actually believed or (gasp!) still believe that propaganda. Logic has no place in those people's reasoning.

	17-01-2004 10:09									#171
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I think Molly says it very well, reference the history that shows the US at its worst. As a footnote, the atrocities in the Phillipines were a continuation of the policies/attitudes that helped lead to the genocide of the Native Americans, the "savages" and "primitive" attitudes, and that as they were less than human, well, it was alright to slaughter them. Virtually no country, at least of any size, has a clean history as to that regard (I say virtually because sombody here will find the exception to the rule ).

Ned is exactly on point about the US bomber campaign in Europe, and also what we did in Japan. Americans DIED because the US felt that indiscriminate bombing of civilians was wrong, as a policy that impacted all the way to our bomber design. Please note that by 1945 that policy was growing a bit threadbare, but even then we dropped the leaflets, AT RISK to the bombers dropping those (meaning we had Americans die to help save someone elses civilians). Even then, as Ned notes, it was the PEOPLE of the US, and the fear of it, that helped reinforce our leaders decision to drop the leaflets. That is the difference between representative government and a totalitarianism. The latter don't care.

He and I had a disagreement on the nuclear bombs, with him actually arguing dropping them was wrong, and I made the argument that it was a BAD (best available data) decision. We agreed to disagree, and until I get the transcripts of the cabinet meetings which document the actual info given to Truman, we'll stay in that status.

Kramerman (thread hijack warning to everyone else), there are absolute standards of wrong and right. It's called ethics, which attempts to create a self-consistant system without relying on sacred writings, which obviously lead to disagreement. Ethics and morals (which are largely based on sacred writings) overlap, but at the same time have some critical differeneces.

Ethically, for example, almost any act imposed on another, who has done nothing whatsover to you, is unethical. Your human sacrifice statement is nonsensical. Ethically, if the person being sacrificed can truly give willing consent, and then chooses to do so, then it is ethical. However, you will find the majority of cases concerning human sacrifice anything but willing.

Some religious types would say "but I am self-consistent." The problem is that they parse their argument. They might say for example, "I want this law imposing this morality on everyone, and I'm being ethical because see, I don't mind this rule imposed on me, I follow it anyway because I'm a good XXXX" versus "I wouldn't mind someone imposing a religious law I disagree with on me, because they are doing it out of conviction." I have found over the years that the one of the best inidicators of inconsistant, unethical behavior is that when you use an example of the latter type, the person pushing morality versus ethics says "But that's different." The problem is that ethics are much more difficult than morality.

	17-01-2004 10:11									#172
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Actually, pattycakes, we also listened to survivors. Yes, some of them lived and made it to the West.

	17-01-2004 10:12									#173
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oh spare me that, commonwealth subject

	17-01-2004 10:16									#174
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you have and had an agenda. the absolut hilarity ensues when trying to equate nazi mosntrocities with the SU. Even clowns can laugh with that assertion. While accomodatenlgy keeping silent about your own many many crimes and against people other than your own. your game was well known 50 years ago and still is today

	17-01-2004 10:17									#175
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Actually, pattycakes, we also listened to survivors. Yes, some of them lived and made it to the West.

Yeah, sure, all these former nazi collaborators, SS soldiers or white immigrants are great and unbiased sources of knowledge about Soviet atrocities.

Yeah, right.

	17-01-2004 10:18									#176
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commonwealth,
"your" figurateively used of course. we're just making light "conversation".

	17-01-2004 10:23									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos In referance to some of the failed economic plans that have been mentioned, I would like you to imagine what would happen if Bush implemented a 5 year plan that killed 10 million people. Do you think most would blame Bush? Do you think that blame would pass on the the Republican party as a whole? Now imagine if that plan was so ludacris that everyone knew it would kill millions, but you forged ahead anyways for some ideological utopia you dream of (acceptable losses for utopia right)? The only differance between that and other mass murder is the methods, the ends remaint he same. It isn't an excuse for the Soviets or Communist Chinese.

The goal wasn't an ideological utopia. The goal was simple- SURVIAVAL. YOU sieged young Soviet epublic and forced Soviets to be cruel. Soviet Union was alone against the rest of the world. Without cruel Stalin's industrialization and collectivization we wouldn't SURVIVE as nation. Germany would crush USSR easily if those sucrifices weren't made.

	17-01-2004 10:25									#178
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meanwhile US/UK was "protecting freedom" by supporting the most brutal dictatorships imaginable. Nice going there too. The sad part is that nothing has changed except peoples' ability to counter that too.

	17-01-2004 10:29									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Yes. I think this is the case, although I am not sure about Nagasaki. Hiroshima was a major exception to the prior rule of dropping leaflets. Consider, that the major attacks on Japanese cities occurred after Dresden and the huge negative reaction of the American people when they learned what happened. By then, the government knew that it could not deliberately target women and children and justify it in any way to the American people. Thus, when Truman announced the use of the A-bomb, he said that we had attacked a "military base." He could not tell the people what really happened.

Are you making this up as you go?

There were warnings dropped only starting late in the bomber campaign against Japan (July 27, 1945). That was long after the first night time, incendiary bombing of Tokyo (March 9, 267,000 buildings destroyed, 80,000 dead) and many other Japanese cities. Note the raid on Tokyo was about 3 weeks after Dresden (Feb. 13).

So yes, for the last 2 weeks of the war, leaflets were dropped. Big freakin' deal!

	17-01-2004 10:33									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Yeah, sure, all these former nazi collaborators, SS soldiers or white immigrants are great and unbiased sources of knowledge about Soviet atrocities. Yeah, right.

Actually, Ukrainian survivors of the famine. Yes, many of them fled West when given the chance during the interegnum of Soviet rule. Some of them were hauled West as slave labour to Germany too. Yeah, slave labour... Nazi collaborator. Tell yourself whatever gets you through the night, bud.

It's really unfortunate when not all the witnesses are killed, isn't it?