19-01-2004 04:56									#211
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Farewell chip for Hueij,

If you think you have the facts straight in this case - and bolded out, no less - I suggest you pay a little more attention to some of the "argument rehashed over and over". Always a good idea before getting on the high horse btw.

And neither Ned nor I can take credit for getting KrazyHorse banned. Only KrazyHorse can.

Nice move putting thumbs in you ears, when things start heating up.

	19-01-2004 04:59									#212
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quote: Originally posted by cinch Considering the artwork is in no way intended to support anti-Israeli activities, maybe the Swedes thought that Israel wouldn't mind?

How very convincing.

quote: The attack happened at the opening of Making Differences, held as part of an upcoming international conference on genocide. In Israel, foreign ministry spokesman David Saranga said the exhibit broke an understanding that the scope of the conference would not include the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

quote: Swedish Ambassador Robert Rydberg admitted the exhibit was in "bad taste," while claiming the matter had been "blown out of proportion."

	19-01-2004 05:03									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Viewed from this side of the Sound, some Swedish officials do carry themselves with a clear antisemitic demeanour, so one can't rule out the ambassador might have a point.

*cough* Dansk folkeparti *cough*

I suppose our strict laws against antisemitism are only there so noone would suspect us for being antisemitic, right?

I'm off now to debate the issue with my bed and pillow instead

	19-01-2004 05:06									#214
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quote: Considering the artwork is in no way intended to support anti-Israeli activities, maybe the Swedes thought that Israel wouldn't mind?

Sorry, I can't accept that as an explanation. We're talking about professional diplomats here, not a group of buddies having a kegger. Somebody planned this out, somebody else certainly gave all the details to all interested parties, and somebody in the Ambassador's retinue recieved those details.

These events are too well planned out, too far in advance for this kind of "oopsie" to take place.

...and my keyboard is dropping vowels again, dammit.

	19-01-2004 05:10									#215
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Agathon, I don't think anyone can present evidence that this installation is to be interpreted in a certain way and that way only. That's also in part the explanation why it's not required to positively refute other posters' perception of the issue. I certainly haven't tried to trample all over people who have a different view of this.

	19-01-2004 05:13									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov On what exact basis did you assume that the ambassador is a right winger?

Because left wing Israelis like the Rabbi mentioned earlier in this thread don't suffer from this sort of sanctimonious paranoia.

You might be surprised Siro, but even some Jewish people find the fanatical moral certainty of people like this guy to be sickening. And Tass is right, if you disagree with the political views of these people you are automatically labelled an anti-semite.

In fact it's perfectly possible to support the destruction of Israel and not be an anti-semite, if the reasons for your belief do not involve blind hatred of Jews or a belief that they are somehow not deserving of full human rights. I happen to think they are, but I also believe that Palestinians also have same rights.

Anyway....

Well, have I got news for you. About 25 years ago everyone I knew supported Israel against Arab aggression and rightly or wrongly sympathised with the Israeli point of view (Munich had a lot to do with this).

Now the predominant view is more and more that Israel is a rogue state along the lines of South Africa. There's no anti-semitism involved in it, just disgust at the behaviour of the Israeli government which plays the victim despite holding all the cards. What's worse is that this is a group of people who should know better, having been on the receiving end themselves.

You and your countrymen can ignore this all you like. At the moment you hold all the cards. But it is unlikely to remain that way for ever, and the moral capital you squander now will be sorely needed down the road.

It makes me sad to see people digging their own graves, but what can be done?

quote: Or did you just want to brush all Israelis with a right wing brush, you bigotted little *****?

Ming, if you are reading this, I respectfully ask that Siro be sent a "note" about the rules.

	19-01-2004 05:22									#217
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Agathon, I don't think anyone can present evidence that this installation is to be interpreted in a certain way and that way only. That's also in part the explanation why it's not required to positively refute other posters' perception of the issue. I certainly haven't tried to trample all over people who have a different view of this.

Yes you can.

Most artwork is open to interpretation given the indeterminacy that afflicts human communication.

However, there's one sure fire way to work out exactly what the artist means and that's to ask him or her. As long as you don't have any good reason to doubt them, this should be the end of the inquiry.

And in this case the artist was pretty clear about the meaning of the work.

In any case of misinterpretation the intention of the speaker matters more than the interpretation of the hearer because the former is infallible, while the latter is not. If I ask you for a screw (meaning that which is driven in with a screwdriver) and you take me to mean I want sex, then you are wrong and I am right because I know what I meant. You can't take ownership of other people's statements and tell them what they really mean. If you could really do that it would be impossible to say anything, since other people would know what I meant, and I wouldn't.

The Ambassador can pee his pants all day claiming that he finds the artwork offensive, but he is merely attempting to force his own interpretation on it, and his interpretation carries absolutely no weight at all, since that of the artist is the final word.

For example, if someone wants to argue that Peter Grimes is not partly about the alienation of the homosexual in society and Benjamin Britten says otherwise, then Britten is automatically right because he wrote it, and all who disagree are just wrong.

They can piss and moan all they like, but they are just wrong and not even God could change that.

	19-01-2004 05:23									#218
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Ingrid, Sweden should rightfully be proud of it's laws against antisemitism and hate against others. The problem as I see it is some prominent figures' one-eyed view of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and issues that derive from it. That sometimes crosses over into antisemitism, and when it does the ambassador should point to it. Even if he shouldn't always be entirely in the right, there's usually no smoke without a fire. IMO Israel's concerns for antisemitism shouldn't just be dismissed with the wave of a hand.

	19-01-2004 05:27									#219
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Ming, if you are reading this, I respectfully ask that Siro be sent a "note" about the rules.

It's not any of your business whether he is sent a "note" or not. And remember, KH was restricted for not saying he will agree to follow the rules in the future... NOT for the insults he was warned not to repeat.

	19-01-2004 05:31									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Ming It's not any of your business whether he is sent a "note" or not. And remember, KH was restricted for not saying he will agree to follow the rules in the future... NOT for the insults he was warned to repeat.

Hey, that sucks. I thought we were supposed to complain if we thought someone was breaking the rules. Isn't that what the report button is for?

edit: I prefer to make such points in the open rather than the coward's private message.

Anyway, that's the sole point I was making... not that I personally care that much if people call me a bunch of asterisks. But asterisk callers should be treated consistently if the rules are to have any credibility at all.

	19-01-2004 05:35									#221
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Agathon, it's a diplomatic function; if a piece of decor -- and when you get down to it, that's all it really is -- offends one of the participants, the host should seriously consider removing it.

	19-01-2004 05:38									#222
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Aggie -- can I call you Aggie? -- Aggie, you are demonstrating one of your more endearing traits again.

	19-01-2004 05:38									#223
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Agathon, one could also consider the possibility of the "artist" saying one thing when confronted, all the while letting the installation convey quite another. For the sake of getting his political message across. Not even artists always tell the truth, heh. So I don't think your solution is all that surefire.

	19-01-2004 05:42									#224
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I'm more than willing to believe the artist, since that is how the piece struck me. I'm more concerned over why Sweden would leave it there if Israel had given objections.

	19-01-2004 05:45									#225
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Yes, that's beginning to nag me a bit as well MM.

	19-01-2004 05:45									#226
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Agathon, it's a diplomatic function; if a piece of decor -- and when you get down to it, that's all it really is -- offends one of the participants, the host should seriously consider removing it.

I'd agree unless the person being offended is mistaken. In this case the offence is clearly based on a mistake.

Like in my "screw" example, the ambassador is just wrong about the artwork and his offence is based on a misunderstanding which it is his responsibility to deal with and not anyone else's.

Winston: It's true that people can intend to cause offence and pretend they meant something else when confronted.

Yet we have to take people's statements at face value, unless we have good reason to believe they are lying (if you think about it, this is required for communication to occur at all). And there seems to be no good reason in this case. Maybe the guy is a liar and really has a hard on for hot female terrorist action, but we have no good reason to think so.

	19-01-2004 05:50									#227
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Hey, that sucks. I thought we were supposed to complain if we thought someone was breaking the rules. Isn't that what the report button is for?

You complaint was registered... but it's none of your business how it was handled. With him being not active at the time of "your complaint"... it was handled in the normal fashion. In the case of KH, he was still active, so the warning came live... HE decided to not respond to the warning as asked... so he restricted himself.

	19-01-2004 05:51									#228
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk I'm more than willing to believe the artist, since that is how the piece struck me. I'm more concerned over why Sweden would leave it there if Israel had given objections.

Because that would be the worst form of censorship. Not only would we be censoring deliberately offensive works (which I agree can sometimes be justified) but we would be allowing for censorship based on the suspicion of offensive intent, whether proven or not.

Not only would that prevent art from being displayed, but it would violate the fundamental value at issue in free speech: the right of a person to express his sincere belief and have it understood by others, without someone else telling him what he does or does not mean.

	19-01-2004 05:53									#229
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Yet we have to take people's statements at face value, unless we have good reason to believe they are lying (if you think about it, this is required for communication to occur at all). And there seems to be no good reason in this case. Maybe the guy is a liar and really has a hard on for hot female terrorist action, but we have no good reason to think so.

Agathon, I tend to agree, but I still think there's reason to be concerned about the intentions of the "artist" if your perception is the installation is, to some extent, glorifying or - as the mother of one of the victims said - a "prize" to the bomber.

I wonder how many will now aspire to have the artist's full attention when he starts on his next piece. This could be viewed the equivalent of American Idol for all we know.

	19-01-2004 05:53									#230
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Given its a major piece in an exhibition specifically set up the conference, given it's the top Israeli official in Sweden that did the vandalism, given that he stated that it was planned, and given the public support given to him by the top official in Israel, I very much doubt it is simply a matter of "misunderstood art".

	19-01-2004 05:56									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Ming You complaint was registered... but it's none of your business how it was handled.

You are taking me too literally. That was my circumlocutory way of registering a complaint (i.e. please do something about this maniac). I could have asked you to spank Siro on the botty and it would have meant the same thing.

Now that would be entertaining. We could probably raise money for the site by providing a pay per view webcast. I'd pay to watch the floggings of several members, and no doubt they mine.

quote: With him being not active at the time of "your complaint"... it was handled in the normal fashion. In the case of KH, he was still active, so the warning came live... HE decided to not respond to the warning as asked... so he restricted himself.

That is true.

	19-01-2004 05:57									#232
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quote: Because that would be the worst form of censorship.

...

I'm going to bed, now.

	19-01-2004 05:59									#233
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Given its a major piece in an exhibition specifically set up the conference, given it's the top Israeli official in Sweden that did the vandalism, given that he stated that it was planned, and given the public support given to him by the top official in Israel, I very much doubt it is simply a matter of "misunderstood art".

I agree. It's more likely the aesthetic equivalent of the Rainbow Warrior bombing.

	19-01-2004 06:04									#234
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Dang it, y'all are posting faster than I can read. And I read pretty fast too.
Time for my two cents.
Disclaimer: Pretentious and full of Long Words.


While I wouldn't call the execution of the idea utterly briliant (especially that I don't really like this style of art, personal thing forget it) - the idea behind the piece is, in my opinion, in fact utterly brilliant. It is the bitterest, sharpest, most painful irony since A Humble Proposal by Swift. Irony, my friends, is the most powerful form of artistic expression, and the most dangerous (for the artist, that is). It stings you right where it hurts, it is cynical, unmerciful - yet full of emotion. That image of Snow White, in the middle of a pool of blood, holding a dagger in her hand, as it were (although she does *not* which is quite important), conjurs up a most clear and painful vision of the unbelievable brutality, of the grotesque of what is going on here. Imagine her, Snow White from the tale, standing in the middle of the Ocean, making the green one red. What a twisted image. But that is the image of the reality I live in. That is why I appreciate it so much - The only way to convey that message, that image, is by twisting and tearing at the heart. Without mercy - cold steel has no mercy.
It is the mark of the Barbarian to destroy what he does not understand. But when the lack of understanding comes out of such an extraordinary blindness and self-centeredness like that of so many of my so-called countrymen it is worse than the Barbarian. I cannot describe it.
The pain of those left behind IS that piece - and nothing at all could convey it better.

	19-01-2004 06:04									#235
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I agree. It's more likely the aesthetic equivalent of the Rainbow Warrior bombing.

Why did you have to bring the matter of bombings into this?

This is about art.

	19-01-2004 08:23									#236
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld This is art, not a newspaper article. Art is supposed to make you think, that is why she shows it in an 'unusual' way, and why she highlights the irony.

I took a white canvas and made a black mark on it. I marvel at the irony. If it were a newspaper, I could read it.

	19-01-2004 08:40									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Firelad It is the mark of the Barbarian to destroy what he does not understand . . . yada yada yada

No, it's the mark of the human to destroy that which he does not understand. And that which he does understand. And that which looks at him funny. And that which he just felt like destroying.

	19-01-2004 09:04									#238
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"He pulled out the plugs and threw one of the spotlights into the fountain which caused the entire installation to short-circuit and made it totally life-threatening," he told TT.

I think TT got the quote wrong. I believe he said, "....made it like totally life-threatening." In a valley girl accent.

	19-01-2004 09:29									#239
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I guess they don't have fuses in Sweden?

	19-01-2004 10:36									#240
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The fact that is was pre-planned is even worse: a diplomat went into a museum planning to commit a crime- and it is even sadder that the government he represents is backing his actions.

I sympathize with Firelad and his pain at the absurd behavior of the right in Israel..they did make a [point in sweden..that the Israeli government is full of morons who would destroy anything that they dislike and cheer along those who would too- yeah, great way of building sypathy and understanding..of course, ilk like Sharon don;t want sympathy of understanding- they do better feeling like everyone hates them-it vidicates their actions and thoughts-nothing better than angry self-pity.

The conference is not about the ME, its about genocide, and Israel was invited, but if they don;t want to go, they are not needed either.