19-01-2004 10:54									#241
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I'm kind of split 50-50...on the one hand, the Israeli guy overreacted, he shoudln't have gone so far...on the other, the Swedes should have at least listened to his concerns and agreed to some sort of a compromise solution (for example, placing an extra disclaimer and/or limiting the time the exhibit would be up, etc.) and thus prevent this from happening.

It wouldn't be outright censorship but actually displaying a reasonable concern for the different (and very serious) reactions that piece of "art" (such a subjective thing) could incite ("free speech" shouldn't imply "freedom from responsibility").

	19-01-2004 12:04									#242
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quote: . The museum's artistic director, Thomas Nordanstad, said he had given the artists the go-ahead to create the artwork, and had "hoped it would lead to an artistic dialogue." The exhibition, entitled "Making a Difference," includes three pieces dealing with the Arab-Israeli conflict, all from a pro-Palestinian perspective. Israel Radio reported that a pro-Israel artwork was removed due to a Syrian protest.

This is beginning to stink more and more like a diplomatic setup.

And apparently, the Swedish weren't very, umm, open to artistic dialogue when the murderer of the Swedish Foreign Minister was the subject...



I guess they can dish it, but they can't take it.

	19-01-2004 15:38									#243
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quote: Israel Radio reported that a pro-Israel artwork was removed due to a Syrian protest

That is apparently some BS that Israel made up. The pro-Israel artwork was part of another exhibition that was cancelled due to a power struggle in the Tensta Art Gallery. The artist will now instead get the opportunity to present two of his works on the same museum as "Snow White"


Btw, I heard on the news that some analysts believe this action was planned by the Israeli government in order to discredit Sweden (and EU in general) as negotiators in middle east. "Hey, even Sweden supports antisemitism now".
It sucks if it's true.

	19-01-2004 16:35									#244
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quote: Originally posted by JCG I'm kind of split 50-50...on the one hand, the Israeli guy overreacted, he shoudln't have gone so far...on the other, the Swedes should have at least listened to his concerns and agreed to some sort of a compromise solution (for example, placing an extra disclaimer and/or limiting the time the exhibit would be up, etc.) and thus prevent this from happening. It wouldn't be outright censorship but actually displaying a reasonable concern for the different (and very serious) reactions that piece of "art" (such a subjective thing) could incite ("free speech" shouldn't imply "freedom from responsibility").

That has nothing to do with it. No artist is responsible for erroneous interpretations of his work if he takes the trouble to make it clear what the work is about/means.

In this case the artists were clear that the work was not meant to glorify suicide bombings and that means the Israeli Ambassador was just wrong. It's as bizarre as if I went into the Louvre and destroyed the Mona Lisa because I thought that Leonardo's purpose in the painting was to denigrate women.

	19-01-2004 16:36									#245
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quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid That is apparently some BS that Israel made up. The pro-Israel artwork was part of another exhibition that was cancelled due to a power struggle in the Tensta Art Gallery. The artist will now instead get the opportunity to present two of his works on the same museum as "Snow White" Btw, I heard on the news that some analysts believe this action was planned by the Israeli government in order to discredit Sweden (and EU in general) as negotiators in middle east. "Hey, even Sweden supports antisemitism now". It sucks if it's true.

It's a massive own goal if it is. If the Israeli government is going to unjustifiably call everyone anti-semites then they'll just alienate themselves from the rest of the world.

	19-01-2004 17:16									#246
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They have been doing that for some time now....

	19-01-2004 17:55									#247
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius They have been doing that for some time now....

I know, but they're so self righteous that they can't see past their own bullshit.

	19-01-2004 18:00									#248
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So, does anybody know if Israel actually asked through proper channels beforehand to have the installation removed? Apparently the Israeli position is that Sweden put that piece of art there just to piss them off.

	19-01-2004 18:05									#249
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quote: Originally posted by Hurricane So, does anybody know if Israel actually asked through proper channels beforehand to have the installation removed? Apparently the Israeli position is that Sweden put that piece of art there just to piss them off.

Yes because everyone in the world has at the forefront of their minds the desire to persecute Israel.

Paranoid fantasists, the lot of them.

	19-01-2004 18:18									#250
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quote: Originally posted by Edan This is beginning to stink more and more like a diplomatic setup.

Yup, the Israeli government sure pulled one over on the Swedes. Good to see you agree.

	19-01-2004 18:18									#251
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Edan, the Swedes really need to show a little more sensitivity here. Their callousness to the feelings of Israeli's and Jews is simply remarkable. They can no longer focus on the conduct of the ambassador because he has been supported by the government of Israel.

Say whatever you want. If a governement approves of a course of action in which civilian bystanders (of which you do not know wheiter they have anything to do with terrorism) are considered collateral damage when a 'goal' is needed to be taken out, then that governement is nothing else than a bunch of nazist butchers.

In this light i don't see how a country like sweden, which is in every aspect one of the most free countries in the world , has to display sensitivity towards a guy who actually abuses his status as member of the diplomatic corps of this governement.

oh, and btw, my deepest respect goes to that rabbi who dares to walk the road of peace...

	19-01-2004 18:20									#252
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Yeah, I reckon that crappy old daub 'Guernica' should have been toasted way long ago- it's clearly a biased attack by a Commie simp on the lovable Francoist forces doing their best to bring law and order to Commie simp Republican Spain.

I mean to be fair, that Picasso guy should at least have done a picture of some poor old Spanish nun, about 73 yrs old, being raped by a big lice ridden Russian Kommissar spreading his filthy Commie germs on a bride of God. Anyway, those people killed were just Basques, and some of them are terrorists, so what's the big deal right?

Old adage that suddenly seems apposite:

all art is propaganda, but not all propaganda is art.

	19-01-2004 18:23									#253
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quote: Originally posted by Edan And apparently, the Swedish weren't very, umm, open to artistic dialogue when the murderer of the Swedish Foreign Minister was the subject...

Jesus, did they vandalize it again? What a bunch of children.

	19-01-2004 21:18									#254
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quote: Originally posted by Edan it's really the crazy misguided world thats at fault, not her, because she's really a pure, innocent poor child trying not to be devoured by beasts in a mad mad world."

I don't get this part. Where do you come up with this? I looked at this piece and I thought, that woman is evil.

	19-01-2004 21:27									#255
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Edan, I applaud your posts in this thread. They are very insightful and informative on the issue of homicide bombers.

All bombers are homocide bombers. Or should we only reserve that redundism for people who kill themselves at the same time they are killing others?

	19-01-2004 21:31									#256
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Here is Oliver Wendell Holmes in Schenk v. U.S. on the borderline case: "But the character of every act depends upon the circumstances in which it is done. Aikens v. Wisconsin, 195 U.S. 194, 205, 206. The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic. It does not even protect a man from an injunction against uttering words that may have all the effect of force. Gompers v. Bucks Stove & Range Co., 221 U.S. 418, 439. The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent. It is a question of proximity and degree. " http://www.tourolaw.edu/patch/Schenck/

That was about anti-war speech. The case upheld the Congresses righ to prevent citizens from speaking out against war. Not one of their finer moments.

	19-01-2004 21:47									#257
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You all please don't call art what I could have done by myself, art died about 60 years ago and was replaced by obscenities that cover the complete lack of any trace of talent

	19-01-2004 22:00									#258
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I don't get this part. Where do you come up with this? I looked at this piece and I thought, that woman is evil.

I read the caption that described her as a poor child about to be devoured by wild beasts.

	19-01-2004 22:04									#259
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No, that's the story about Snow White. The story about the bomber tells very clearly that she murdered lots of people.

	19-01-2004 22:10									#260
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quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid No, that's the story about Snow White. The story about the bomber tells very clearly that she murdered lots of people.

It's the story of Snow White included within the story of the bomber.

	19-01-2004 22:11									#261
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Does this mean the Israeli Ambassador is really a Philestine?

Makes his position on vandalism look very suspect - in short, he's asking for a kicking.

:kick:

Was he baptised a diplomat or has he got a rich Daddy?

	19-01-2004 22:14									#262
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quote: Originally posted by Edan I read the caption that described her as about to be devoured by wild beasts.

And she was, wasn't she?

She blew herself up in a crowd of people.

	19-01-2004 22:20									#263
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The topic is not the art thing at all. It's the pro-Arab mindset of the Swedes (and Europeans in general) that pisses off the Israelis. It goes not one day without reading the one-sided bias (hatred) in the media, which forms the public opinion. Sure, this will only enflame further. Only one thing is certain, the war has just begun.

	19-01-2004 22:24									#264
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quote: Originally posted by Al'Kimiya The topic is not the art thing at all. It's the pro-Arab mindset of the Swedes (and Europeans in general) that pisses off the Israelis.

Nah. What pisses them off is we don't back Israel.

We don't back the Arabs either - if we did, Israel would really have a war on their hands. I don't think this is the way forward though.

	19-01-2004 22:45									#265
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon In this case the artists were clear that the work was not meant to glorify suicide bombings

It wasn't anything of the sort - otherwise we wouldn't have a 9-page thread debating it, would we?

	19-01-2004 22:52									#266
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld And she was, wasn't she? She blew herself up in a crowd of people.

So twenty one innocent people in a restuant eating their meals are a bunch of wild beasts trying to devour her?

I can't believe you wrote that.

	19-01-2004 23:02									#267
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What offends people here is the merest mention that there might have been a reason for what this woman did- this is why they scream that this is gloryfication: becuase we are to see her as sme animal-or better yet, some evil spirit. Perhaps showing her image is some incantation that rbings her evil back or whatever..

all of which is childish bull, but oh so human...

This woman did what she did for a reason, but what she did was a horrible and despicable crime. And the fact that this happened, the fact this woman, with her seemingly promising life, average life, middle class life went and did what she did is what astounds: what chalenges the "truth" we have built for ourselves, that "our" kind of people, fr she is our kind of people, did something we think simply can not be associated with us.

NO, this art does NOT glorify what she did..it very clearly states what she did was a crime to abhor- but it insults some here for not making her a charicature of evil (in fact, undermining this image by using a charicature of purity) but perhaps, all too human.

and Al'Kimiya is party correct- this is about the growing sense in Israel, actively fed by the government, that everyne hate the Jews, us v. the world, blah, blah blah. Well, thank god for Israel that is not true, for otherwise there would be no Israel.

	19-01-2004 23:22									#268
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Does anyone have a link to the Israeli admission that the action of the Ambassador was planned? My posts were premised on the notion that he reacted viscerally to the exhibit.

	19-01-2004 23:54									#269
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quote: Originally posted by Al'Kimiya The topic is not the art thing at all. It's the pro-Arab mindset of the Swedes (and Europeans in general) that pisses off the Israelis. It goes not one day without reading the one-sided bias (hatred) in the media, which forms the public opinion. Sure, this will only enflame further. Only one thing is certain, the war has just begun.

Yet at the same time many arabs find the Europeans are racist towards arabs (at least against the arabs that live in European countries).

I just find it funny that the Israeli government, backing up their ambassador can decide what art can and cannot be shown in other countries. What on earth are they thinking!

Not the first, and last (I'm afraid) blunder the Israeli government is making in these troublesome times!

	19-01-2004 23:59									#270
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quote: Originally posted by Edan It wasn't anything of the sort - otherwise we wouldn't have a 9-page thread debating it, would we?

We are only having a nine page thread because some people either haven't read the artists' own explanation of what the piece is about or don't believe them (despite having no good reason not to).

There really isn't any debate any more, people who say the piece glorifies suicide bombers just aren't listening to the artists.