18-01-2004 06:48									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Just heard about a rabbi that stood in front of a Palestinian house that was to be bulldozed by the Israeli gov't. He's being prosecuted atm. Awesome guy. http://www.jta.org/page_view_story....intcategoryid=5

He gets my vote.

	18-01-2004 07:06									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Why not just ban everything that right wing Israelis find offensive?

On what exact basis did you assume that the ambassador is a right winger?

Or did you just want to brush all Israelis with a right wing brush, you bigotted little *****?

quote: Which begs the question, why do you hate the piece so much that you want it destroyed? Are you afriad of what other people will think, and want to censor what they can be exposed to? Or are you afriad of what it makes you, yourself, think?

Tell me, would you mind a large crucifix, a KKK logo, and a picture of Hitler as Jesus? Why do you hate it? Are you afraid of what other people will think? Or are you afraid of what it makes you, yourself, think?

	18-01-2004 07:12									#93
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Tell me, how do you people think would the families of loved ones who were killed in 9/11 would act, if that 'art' piece featured Mohammed Atta?

Exactly the same, that's how.

So stop using this case as something to beat the 'crazy jews who try to censor everything' with.

It's a case of insensitivity, and possibly an attempt to legitimize or rationalize an act of brutality that doesn't deserve such honors.

	18-01-2004 07:13									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Tell me, would you mind a large crucifix, a KKK logo, and a picture of Hitler as Jesus? Why do you hate it? Are you afraid of what other people will think? Or are you afraid of what it makes you, yourself, think?

I wouldn't wish any piece of art to be destroyed simply because they contained a crucifix, KKK logo, or hitler. Infact, I imagine that pieces with such content could potentially be very powerful, and very good. Or funny. I'd like to see a picture of hitler on the cross, like jesus. maybe throw a KKK hood on for good measure.


(and I would imagine you'd find many pieces containing things of that nature in the holocaust museum, by the way... although i don't personally know)

	18-01-2004 07:15									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov It's a case of insensitivity, and possibly an attempt to legitimize or rationalize an act of brutality that doesn't deserve such honors.

It's a case of ignorance or an unwillingness to understand, and possibly an attempt to politicize an art piece and create censorship around an issue.

	18-01-2004 07:16									#96
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I don't think you could say that Mohammed Atta looks like snow white, by the way.

	18-01-2004 09:28									#97
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What a strange discussion:

If this ambassador where to go into a theater showing "Triumph Des Willens", would he storm the booth and destroy the reel? And that most definitely is a work of glorification...

What the ambassador did was unacceptable- he should be quicked out of the country, and made to pay damages for what he did. NO, there is no excuse- it does not matter if he was offendend- it deos not matter if anyone here shares his outrage- this was a work of art, and his act was, besides one of censorship, one of vandalism, and he showed immense disrespect for his host country.

As for the piece of art itself- I am sorry, but anyone who thinks this glorifies what she did is honestly being denser than lead.

	18-01-2004 10:46									#98
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Was it equating or was it irony; that somebody who superficially resembles Snow White is actually the opposite of an innocent?

I agree, there is great irony in this piece. I personally do not have a problem with it (sorry, Siro).

	18-01-2004 10:51									#99
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Cool guy

Giving away to his urges and becoming the anarchist we all dream of for a moment. Kudos

	18-01-2004 10:51									#100
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I'd like to add that I feel damn strange standing on this side of the line.

	18-01-2004 11:30									#101
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk I'd like to add that I feel damn strange standing on this side of the line.

So if you consider yourself pro-Israeli, you must automatically approve of the actions of all members of the Israeli government by default?

Which side of the line are you on that you feel strange? That of common sense?

	18-01-2004 12:10									#102
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quote: She secretly crossed into Israel, charged into a Haifa restaurant, shot a security guard, blew herself up and murdered 19 innocent civilians

I dont remember her shooting a guard.

Edit : Also, 21 people were killed in that bombing. Not 19.

	18-01-2004 12:18									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Eli I dont remember her shooting a guard.

Artistic freedom to emphasize her heroism

	18-01-2004 12:33									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Why represent the suicide bomber as Snow White in the first place, if not to convey the message of purity and innocence, at least to some extent?

Some people--apparently not the ambassador or you--are smart enough to see it as bitter irony.

People are so dense...

1) The artist is an Israeli Jew
2) The caption of the artwork details the act of this women describing it as a murder of innocents
3) Her picture is floating in pool representing the blood of her victims

I'm still waiting for a plausible explanantion of how any of this is meant to glorify her.

The ambassador should be ashamed for his behavior. He's a cretin.

	18-01-2004 12:35									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov It's a case of insensitivity, and possibly an attempt to legitimize or rationalize an act of brutality that doesn't deserve such honors.

quote: The other artist, Feiler's Swedish wife Gunilla Skoeld Feiler, told daily Expressen that the work was "not a glorification of the suicide bomber." "I wanted to show how incomprehensible it is that a mother-of-two, who is a lawyer no less, can do such a thing," she said.

Nobody bothers to read any more I guess.

	18-01-2004 13:21									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov The caption of the artwork details the act of this women describing it as a murder of innocents

While also using Snow White as an analogy, calling her an "innocent heart being devoured by wild beasts" and a "poor child"

quote: 3) Her picture is floating in pool representing the blood of her victims

Yes, in perfect makeup looking "innocent" and floating and untouched and unmarred by that blood. The artwork tries to dismiss her culpability, that she's simply a mother of two and a lawyer who just happened to be in a messed up world that placed her in such a situation when in reality, she is guilty of the brutal murder of twenty one people, she was the one responsible for her actions. That she should be portrayed in the manner she was is disgusting and certainly inappropriate in an exhibition on genocide who's scope was not supposed to cover the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

	18-01-2004 13:40									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Yes, in perfect makeup looking "innocent"

That's the main point of the artwork for crying out loud!

You complained noone is reading your posts but it seems you didn't bother to read any of the posts discussing the irony of that picture. Let me help you:

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Some people--apparently not the ambassador or you--are smart enough to see it as bitter irony.

	18-01-2004 13:41									#108
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The whole point that this thread seems to be heading towards is: This artwork can be interpreted in many ways.

I, and others (also known as the "sane people"), see it as a depressing, but thought-provoking, piece of art focusing on certain bits of irony concerning a female suicide bomber.

Others, mysteriously, see it as a way of glorifying murder.

Either way: It's art. No one was hurt in the making of this piece; it advocates neither violence nor hatred towards anyone. So what's the problem? Let different people interpret it as they may. But don't destroy the piece that someone's worked hard to create.

I don't think artists should be punished or denigrated simply because certain people don't get their original intentions, or interpret the piece in a way that offends them. Doesn't seem fair, to me.

	18-01-2004 13:46									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid That's the main point of the artwork for crying out loud! You complained noone is reading your posts but it seems you didn't bother to read any of the posts discussing the irony of that picture. Let me help you:

I understand the "irony" but the artwork still tries to dismiss her culpability. "She commited the murder, but hey, she was a mother of two and a lawyer and it's really the crazy misguided world thats at fault, not her, because she's really a pure, innocent poor child trying not to be devoured by beasts in a mad mad world."

	18-01-2004 13:55									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Edan I understand the "irony"

No, obviously, you don't.

	18-01-2004 14:02									#111
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quote: Originally posted by cinch No, obviously, you don't.

Coming from someone who splits up people who agree with your interpretation and those who don't as 'sane' or not, I think the best way to deal with your critque of my abilities as an art-critic is:

	18-01-2004 14:36									#112
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Free speech!!!

The vandal should be arrested and tried for criminal damages, and made to pay compensation to the artist and the museum. Does it ever occur to some people that a piece of art has deeper meaning than "poor taste", or an attempt to be contentious? As a Jew myself, I can say with great justification that we need to stop being so paranoid! Sure the holocaust happened and sure people are blowing themselves up killing children etc. That does not give Jews or Israelis a blank cheque and the rest of us a blind eye. History would judge such behaviour (which I find to be indicative of a wider problem (see above)) as wholly unwise and unjustified.

	18-01-2004 14:40									#113
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When I first came to America, I lived in a small house in Chicago.
The neighbor was playing his music incredibly loud and it was night, so I politely asked him to stop.
He began going off on how:

-His family survived the holocaust and the evil Russians like me,
-His family comes from a long line of Jews
-Israel has the right to exist and the Arabs need to get out of the middle east, and
-I'm anti semite.

Your right, you do need to stop being so paranoid and learn that while the holocaust did happen and it was horrible, it does not mean that Anti-Semitism is "worse" than other forms of religious intolerance and that Jews don't always need to be mentioned in a special light.
I'm sorry, but the holocaust can't be invoked to deflect everything and I'm tired of seeing it used as such.

	18-01-2004 14:54									#114
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quote: You don't find it interesting, winston, to think about why an educated woman who (indeed) looks like Snow White decides to commit such a horrible deed?

True evil appears good. I agree with Buck Birdseed, that the picture does not exemplify the killer, but rather points out to an important fact about evil. It is to the advantage of evil to appear as good as possible. That's why I think the Israeli minister is way out in left field without bringing the heavy artillery of freedom of expression.

	18-01-2004 14:59									#115
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Comrade:

	18-01-2004 15:03									#116
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quote: Tell me, would you mind a large crucifix, a KKK logo, and a picture of Hitler as Jesus? Why do you hate it? Are you afraid of what other people will think? Or are you afraid of what it makes you, yourself, think?

I would be quite happy to be exposed to those images and would pay attention to them, providing I have the freedom to counter them with my own.

	18-01-2004 15:05									#117
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quote: Originally posted by GePap So if you consider yourself pro-Israeli, you must automatically approve of the actions of all members of the Israeli government by default? Which side of the line are you on that you feel strange? That of common sense?

No, just standing next to you.

	18-01-2004 15:23									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Free speech!!!

Hey, I haven't called for censorship of it.

One can agree with free speech and still call it the propogegandic piece of **** that it is. Just like one can support the right of the KKK to march while still thinking that they're a bunch of ****ing bigots.



(I wonuldn't mind if the creators were shamed into removing it, though...)

	18-01-2004 15:24									#119
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk No, just standing next to you.

*giggle*

	18-01-2004 15:27									#120
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quote: One can agree with free speech and still call it the propogegandic piece of **** that it is. Just like one can support the right of the KKK to march while still thinking that they're a bunch of ****ing bigots.

Fair play (cue Voltaire). However, I don't even take offence at the art, I see it as highly metaphorical as ironic as to the tragedy of conflict no matter what. Its not a piece for one side or the other. That's ok, most people don't understand art .