10-02-2004 19:50									#1
	The Fwench. Increase the size of your Attachments

What do you guys think of the Fwench, what are they for, and are they being out of order in insisting that all religious paraphanalia be banned from schools?

My opinion, no. Don't get me wrong, afterall we all know what the Fwench are like, and then there was that time they voted for neo-facists (probably just to be rude, some say). Their willingness to be smug and piss people off is astounding.

But then they made up for some of that unpleasantness in my book by flicking Bush the one fingered salute over Iraq, and their motivations for doing so were entirely altruistic, anti-imperialistic and good. (If you're gonna sum up millions of people with the use of a misspelt name and some serious generalizing, you may as well be fickle about it).

I personally wouldn't want to put up with peoples religious-detritus cluttering up my kids school if I was a parent, and I don't think Faithful people really dig an intergrated multicultural society anyway, because by definition they are all narrow-minded judgmental intolerants who think everybody else is going to the lake of fire to burn for eternity when they die, whereas Faithful people are all personal friends with The Man, who happens to share their many political opinions and hang-ups.
Cecularism on the other hand is far more accomodating, even Saddam Hussein's Iraq allowed women the freedom to become doctors and lawyers (shame about all the raping)

Anyway my point is that the Fwench say that cecularism is inherent to the values of their constitution, and that if you want to live in Fwance you should embrace their cecularist ways, and I agree. I havent heard christians or jews complaing about not being able to wear religious stuff in schools, but many muslims are. I think that's unreasonable and would be tempted to say to them 'if you don't like it you should go live in a muslim theocracy, and if you came from a muslim theocracy before, and went to live in Fwance, perhaps you should ask why you did so, what kind of things make living in Fwance (with Fwench people) better then living in a theocracy?'

But saying that wouldn't be fair to muslim women who were born in Fwance, and who see the hijab as part of who they are.

So to sum up- I have no meaningful answers beyond the generic mindless bigotry that I show towards the Fwench and the Religious alike.

	10-02-2004 19:55									#2
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I've never heard of the Fwench. Are they anything like the French?

	10-02-2004 19:56									#3
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I am not sure what pov you're really trying to present, and what to mock, and come to think about it, I don't really care. In any case, the above passage isn't funny. Actually, it's quite annoying.

I'd really appreciate it if you remove it.

Thank you in advance.

	10-02-2004 19:57									#4
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Wascally fwench wabbits.

	10-02-2004 19:58									#5
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quote: Cecularism on the other hand is far more accomodating, even Saddam Hussein's Iraq allowed women the freedom to become doctors and lawyers (shame about all the raping)

Yeah, that sure sucked for them didn't it?

	10-02-2004 20:02									#6
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Well, thank you Problem Child.

We needed a Rosbif to laugh at, so thank you for taking the role

* Spiffor points and laughs at the Rosbif

	10-02-2004 20:03									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel I am not sure what pov you're really trying to present, and what to mock, and come to think about it, I don't really care. In any case, the above passage isn't funny. Actually, it's quite annoying. I'd really appreciate it if you remove it. Thank you in advance.

I'm not sure who you are or what you're doing in my thread, please leave immediately as I find you annoying

	10-02-2004 20:03									#8
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About the point that many French Muslims are opposed to the headscarf ban. I don't know, but it seems to me that it is a vocal minority.

In any case the leading religious Sunni, who resides in Egypt, has said that the French are right on this issue. The Koran apparently don't say that Muslims must wear the headscarf in secular states.

So maybe the issue should be resolved between the Muslims and France.

	10-02-2004 20:03									#9
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quote: Originally posted by problem_child I personally wouldn't want to put up with peoples religious-detritus cluttering up my kids school if I was a parent, and I don't think Faithful people really dig an intergrated multicultural society anyway, because by definition they are all narrow-minded judgmental intolerants who think everybody else is going to the lake of fire to burn for eternity when they die, whereas Faithful people are all personal friends with The Man, who happens to share their many political opinions and hang-ups. Cecularism on the other hand is far more accomodating, even Saddam Hussein's Iraq allowed women the freedom to become doctors and lawyers (shame about all the raping) Anyway my point is that the Fwench say that cecularism is inherent to the values of their constitution, and that if you want to live in Fwance you should embrace their cecularist ways, and I agree. I havent heard christians or jews complaing about not being able to wear religious stuff in schools, but many muslims are. I think that's unreasonable and would be tempted to say to them 'if you don't like it you should go live in a muslim theocracy, and if you came from a muslim theocracy before, and went to live in Fwance, perhaps you should ask why you did so, what kind of things make living in Fwance (with Fwench people) better then living in a theocracy?' But saying that wouldn't be fair to muslim women who were born in Fwance, and who see the hijab as part of who they are. So to sum up- I have no meaningful answers beyond the generic mindless bigotry that I show towards the Fwench and the Religious alike.

Yes -- apparently if you're being serious with this post, you are indeed, bigoted towards religious people.

	10-02-2004 20:05									#10
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Ahh, I get it, so you opened this thread to play with yourself?

Ok, I don't think I want to stay aroun for that. 'sides, it's not as if it has any real content. Just had to write that request so you'd refrain from making this error again.

Cheers.

	10-02-2004 20:08									#11
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Stay Azazel, and let's have some fun at the expense of the Rosbif together :beer:

	10-02-2004 20:10									#12
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Spiffor: Can you tell me who the Fwench are?

	10-02-2004 20:11									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc About the point that many French Muslims are opposed to the headscarf ban. I don't know, but it seems to me that it is a vocal minority. In any case the leading religious Sunni, who resides in Egypt, has said that the French are right on this issue. The Koran apparently don't say that Muslims must wear the headscarf in secular states. So maybe the issue should be resolved between the Muslims and France.

I agree, and I feel unable to come to any opinion that does not reflect my own bigotisms regarding the religious. Apparently the hijab started out as a christian thing anyway, later adopted by some islamic cultures so... generally I think it'snot unreasonable to ask people to leave symbols at the school gate.

	10-02-2004 20:12									#14
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So freedom of religious expression is not something to be respected?

that's lovely

	10-02-2004 20:16									#15
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Spiffor: Can you tell me who the Fwench are?

I have no idea. Maybe Carribean Frenchmen who have trouble pronouncing the "r" correctly?

Or maybe that's just another Rosbif lame word to depict our glorious people?

	10-02-2004 20:17									#16
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Regarding freedom of religious expression.

The headscarf is not about religious expression. It is a demand laid down in the Koran.

So, for instance, I will now go and tell all women to shut up in congregations, because that is what the bible says. That is within my rights of religious expression.

I think I will go and stone my adulterous neighbours to death too.

	10-02-2004 20:20									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc Regarding freedom of religious expression. The headscarf is not about religious expression. It is a demand laid down in the Koran. So, for instance, I will now go and tell all women to shut up in congregations, because that is what the bible says. That is within my rights of religious expression. I think I will go and stone my adulterous neighbours to death too.

Believe it or not, wearing a headscarf is not opressive for women if they are willing to wear it, as part of their custom.

	10-02-2004 20:23									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc The headscarf is not about religious expression. It is a demand laid down in the Koran.

Not exactly.
The Kuran demands women not to look attractive. The precise garb is entirely a matter of tradition and interpretation. In Northern Africa, it is a simple headscarf, or even sometimes a bandana. In Afghanistan, it is the whole fricking burka. Yet, every religious zealot will tell you that's God's will.

	10-02-2004 20:30									#19
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Believe it or not, wearing a headscarf is not opressive for women if they are willing to wear it, as part of their custom.

Young Muslims wear the headscarf in Europe because it gives them a sense of identity.

In Saudi Arabia last week a famous Saudi business woman, deliberately, took her headscarf off a bit so that it did not cover her hair completely. She railed aganist the oppression of women in Saudi Arabia, and her speech was met with thundeous applause by the many young Saudi women there. Naturally chaos ensued, and the religious clerics went nuts.

Now, in Saudi Arabia the women are figthing a battle to be more free.

In France a very little minority of religious fundamentalist women want to be free to wear the headscarf. Even though that freedom is a freedom which they are demanded to exercise according to the Koran.

How can you demand that people be free to wear the headscarf, yet not give them the freedom not to wear the headscarf?

	10-02-2004 20:32									#20
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Duh, Tripledoc -- I'm not saying that women should be forced to wear the headscarf -- it should be their choice, and if they choose to wear it in public, they should not be discriminated against for doing so.

	10-02-2004 20:34									#21
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p_c: your continual use of the word "fwench" suggests that you're being a bit of a trat in this thwead.

	10-02-2004 20:36									#22
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quote: Originally posted by duke o' york p_c: your continual use of the word "fwench" suggests that you're being a bit of a trat in this thwead.

I agree... I was going to close this troll based on the opening post... but it seems like a real discussion is being attempted.

But if this goes the troll route... it will be toast.

	10-02-2004 20:36									#23
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As Spiffor said the headscarf is worn, because the men are are scared that the women should attractive.

I see many young muslim women wearing a headscarf, and that kind of headscarf they wear do not make them any less attactive.

	10-02-2004 21:09									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Or maybe that's just another Rosbif lame word to depict our glorious people?

HE couldn't use 'frogs' because its now considered a term of endearment by many.

	10-02-2004 21:24									#25
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun So freedom of religious expression is not something to be respected? that's lovely

I don't remember any law saying that people aren't free to believe in what they want, or prevented to build and attend to place suiting their beliefs, or anything like that.

UNLESS, it goes against the laws of the state.
The laws of the state say : religion is a personnal matter, that should NOT be mixed with the State.
Public school are run by the state.
Hence, no religion in public school.


Some are able to understand the concept of neutral ground and keeping personnal opinions outside state-run institutions.
Others just shout "fascists" and claim there is religious oppression.

	10-02-2004 21:26									#26
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Spiffor, ne vous inquiètez pas. Il y a beaucoup de gens de l'autre côté de la Manche qui s'en foutent de ceux qui veulent attacquer nos voisins francais. N'importe que disent les journaux "moins chers" anglais - il n'y a pas beaucoup qui pensent comme ça.

Un francophile.

	10-02-2004 21:36									#27
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look, the whole spelling France/French with a 'w' thing... I personaly can never seem to resist, I dunno why but I find it humorous and harmless, I think it's because I watched a Monty Python sketch somehwhere that also has me occasionally reffering to 'Inglis PeegDogs!'

You're right, it's not funny (for others) or clever (probably) but it's certainly wasn't intended to dominate what I think is a real discussion about Frances current issue with secularism or intolerance. That- and it's incredibly bad form in my opinion to have to explain a joke- ever, no matter how bad or mindless, better to just drop it and move on. I don't intend to seriously insult the French, and I have already admitted that I am bigotted against religions across the board (baring secular buddism and taosim)

Furthermore I think it's pretty rich for muslims to demand the right of people to wear what they will in a libertarian secular society, when non-islamic women travelling in the muslim world can find themselves harrased or even beaten for not observing the customs of a religion to which they do not even belong.

	10-02-2004 21:41									#28
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quote: Originally posted by problem_child I have already admitted that I am bigotted against religions across the board (baring secular buddism and taosim)

What about the Viking faith. You know Thor and Odin and so on?

	10-02-2004 21:44									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Akka I don't remember any law saying that people aren't free to believe in what they want, or prevented to build and attend to place suiting their beliefs, or anything like that. UNLESS, it goes against the laws of the state. The laws of the state say : religion is a personnal matter, that should NOT be mixed with the State. Public school are run by the state. Hence, no religion in public school. Some are able to understand the concept of neutral ground and keeping personnal opinions outside state-run institutions. Others just shout "fascists" and claim there is religious oppression.

:b

	10-02-2004 21:50									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc What about the Viking faith. You know Thor and Odin and so on?

You could say that there are two categories of religion, those that see god and his universe that he made, and those that see the universe itself- as god. In my opinion, the later category, isn't really religion, it's usually just philosophy and meditation techniques and good methods of dealing with stress or the inherant futility of will itself. The former catagory usually consists of various laws, commandments, and homocentric assertions regarding nature and time. Often, followers of that category of religion appear to reffer to a god that bears all the hallmarks of some kind of cosmic totalitarian dictator, underground gulags and glittering pleasure-palaces for those who tow the party line included.