11-02-2004 09:22									#61
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by skywalker So it is illegal to try and convince children of things?

At the public school, yes. The public school is supposed to be devoid of political, religious or commercial advocacy. Besides, as I try to convince people on the streets to vote for the Communist Party, I am forbidden by the law to try convincing those younger than 16 (I'm for a lower age of consent in this regard, but I'd find it highly amoral to proselytize children).

Now, that's the principle, which dates back to the begginings of the Third Republic, and I think it is obsolete in many regards: I'd prefer an approach based on age, rather than based on the attendance of public school. Such as forbidding people outside of the family to proselytize their system of values and beliefs on a very young and influencable kid.

To me, banning headscarves in senior highschool is preposterous wrt proselytism. At this point, kids are supposed to be mature enough not to get swayed by this.

	11-02-2004 09:26									#62
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: At the public school, yes.

What is school, other than convincing a child (or "indoctrinating" one) into certain truths decided upon by the state?

quote: The public school is supposed to be devoid of political, religious or commercial advocacy.

Circular logic. It is supposed to be this way because it is supposed to be this way.

quote: Besides, as I try to convince people on the streets to vote for the Communist Party, I am forbidden by the law to try convincing those younger than 16 (I'm for a lower age of consent in this regard, but I'd find it highly amoral to proselytize children).

(btw, "amoral" means that it is unrelated to morality, or indifferent to it - "immoral" means morally wrong )

	11-02-2004 09:26									#63
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Now, that's the principle, which dates back to the begginings of the Third Republic, and I think it is obsolete in many regards: I'd prefer an approach based on age, rather than based on the attendance of public school. Such as forbidding people outside of the family to proselytize their system of values and beliefs on a very young and influencable kid.

How is that kid supposed to learn values? SOMEONE has to teach values to the kid. Why not expose children to many beliefs, and let them CHOOSE?

	11-02-2004 09:29									#64
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by skywalker quote: Besides, as I try to convince people on the streets to vote for the Communist Party, I am forbidden by the law to try convincing those younger than 16 (I'm for a lower age of consent in this regard, but I'd find it highly amoral to proselytize children).

"Remember kids! These nice treats are the gift of the communist party! The communist party is your friend! It's better than Santa, because it's true! "

	11-02-2004 09:30									#65
	Get a bigger avatar today!

If the kids hear that, fine. They can also hear lots of OTHER opinions.

The fact is, it is impossible by definition to avoid "indoctrination" of children - they have to be taught SOMETHING. Thus, they should be exposed to as much as possible, rather than fed state propoganda.

	11-02-2004 09:31									#66
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by skywalker How is that kid supposed to learn values?

From his family

quote: SOMEONE has to teach values to the kid. Why not expose children to many beliefs, and let them CHOOSE?

You believe very young children can make an informed choice. I don't. And remember, I'm not speaking about highschoolers here, I'm speaking about 4-7 year olds.

	11-02-2004 09:33									#67
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: From his family

So only his family can indoctrinate him, by law?!

quote: You believe very young children can make an informed choice. I don't. And remember, I'm not speaking about highschoolers here, I'm speaking about 4-7 year olds.

Parents can keep their children from being in such a situation, if they want to. How many 3rd graders proselytise anyways

	11-02-2004 09:42									#68
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by skywalker Parents can keep their children from being in such a situation, if they want to. How many 3rd graders proselytise anyways

Third graders can transmit their values to their fellows, which happens when they have a very strong value system in comparison to the other pupils. for example, a person raised in a diehard racist family will feel confident to brag about it toward children who haven't recived strong anti-racist values. Same with religious values: a pupil coming from a diehard religionist family will try to impose this 'truth' on other kids except diehard atheist ones.

But the main stake is about adults trying to proselytize children, without the kid's interest in mind. I have a strong hatred for child-advertisement, for example, but religious or political indoctrination can be a scary thing when it runs rampant. At school, i.e at the place where we have control, we try to avoid it.

	11-02-2004 11:20									#69
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by problem_child Furthermore I think it's pretty rich for muslims to demand the right of people to wear what they will in a libertarian secular society, when non-islamic women travelling in the muslim world can find themselves harrased or even beaten for not observing the customs of a religion to which they do not even belong.

This point is important in that it demonstrates that the headscarf is not a religious obligation, but a political one.

	11-02-2004 14:19									#70
	Put an end to popups!

It would be cool if headscarves became the hot teen apparel item in France.

	11-02-2004 15:10									#71
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by skywalker You're actually wrong here - the state isn't being neutral with respect to religion, it's SUPPRESSING religion. Being neutral is no advocacy or suppression of any religious view, including atheism.

No, that is passivity.
A neutral zone considering a particular point, is a zone where this particular point is ABSENT. Well, that's the point. Absent.

And saying "keep your beliefs to yourselves while in neutral zone" is not suppressing nor segrating. It's just saying "keep it to yourselves while in this zone".

quote: What's wrong with "proselytising"? It is merely a negative term for trying to convince others of your point of view. If an action is specifically disruptive to the classroom, or ends up with physical harm to a student or property, then yes, it should be stopped, but not because it is "proselytising".

Well, if you don't see the problem with proselytism in school, then I suppose you just can't understand the point to have a neutral state. Guess the concept is lost to you, and then I can hardly make a point about it.

After all, if someone doesn't find any harm in propaganda, it's a bit hard to make him understand that unbiased news are good...

quote: Why don't they have anything to do with school? Students most of all need to learn the importance of independent thought, not be spoon-fed government propoganda.

Funny, someone who blame government propaganda because a point that is precisely aimed at preventing propaganda
Guess you defeat your own argument here. Thanks.

	11-02-2004 17:48									#72
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Saras It would be cool if headscarves became the hot teen apparel item in France.

I expect it to be next september

	11-02-2004 17:50									#73
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc I sincerely hope that the French wins this cultural battle and causes all religion to wither away.

I like that comment!

Nice one!

	11-02-2004 17:51									#74
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor "Remember kids! These nice treats are the gift of the communist party! The communist party is your friend! It's better than Santa, because it's true! "

"And if you step out of line, our kommissars will throw you in a furnace!"

	11-02-2004 19:13									#75
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: But then they made up for some of that unpleasantness in my book by flicking Bush the one fingered salute over Iraq, and their motivations for doing so were entirely altruistic, anti-imperialistic and good.

*gasping breaths*

	11-02-2004 19:20									#76
	Put an end to popups!

I'm glad that you enjoyed my joke.

	11-02-2004 20:55									#77
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor quote: Originally posted by skywalker How is that kid supposed to learn values? From his family quote: SOMEONE has to teach values to the kid. Why not expose children to many beliefs, and let them CHOOSE? You believe very young children can make an informed choice. I don't. And remember, I'm not speaking about highschoolers here, I'm speaking about 4-7 year olds.

so high schools will allow u to wear religious garments because they are not of the proper age?

or are u just artificially limiting ur argument.

	11-02-2004 21:08									#78
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by yavoon so high schools will allow u to wear religious garments because they are not of the proper age?

With regard to proselytism, yes, I think highschoolers can take it, and thus see religious garments.

	11-02-2004 21:10									#79
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor With regard to proselytism, yes, I think highschoolers can take it, and thus see religious garments.

but the french gov't disagrees?

	11-02-2004 21:11									#80
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I've seen nothing that changes my original opinion from the last thread on the topic of the French aversion to free speech.

	11-02-2004 21:14									#81
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by yavoon but the french gov't disagrees?

Yes. As you may know, I agree with my government about as much as Sava agrees with Bush

	11-02-2004 21:18									#82
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc French aversion to free speech.

The French haven't enshrined free speech the same way as Americans, and as a result, there are some things you aren't free to say, such as calls for racist hatred, and calls for murder.

Many French racists look at the US as an example. Never mind that, at the same time, they want to ban left-wing newspapers and Marxist books from libraries.

	11-02-2004 21:21									#83
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Many French racists look at the US as an example.

I imagine some of your religious population is doing the same at the moment as well.

	11-02-2004 22:49									#84
	Got spare money?

The French are fine by me.

Sure, we've had lots of rows in the 100 years of the Entente Cordiale... but doesn't democracy thrive on debate and different ideas?

	11-02-2004 22:51									#85
	Inflate your Upload Space

Kids shouldn't be educated ANY religious beliefs at all. Noone should talk to them about god, at all, until they're grown up, and can make those decisions themselves.

	11-02-2004 23:08									#86
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Noone should talk to them about god, at all, until they're grown up, and can make those decisions themselves.

Why?

Religious people will disagree because they believe faith is an important part of morals, and that to really teach their child how to live a moral life, requires knowledge of religion.

Those without religion will not teach their children religion, because they believe the opposite.

Why not let each parent exercise their right to teach their children how to live a moral life, as they see fit?

How would you enforce such a ban on parents teaching their children about religion? Good luck.

	11-02-2004 23:09									#87
	Tired of ads?

Why don't the French just ban religion? It would be fairly clear where they stand then.

As it is, they're just banning religious children.

	12-02-2004 01:19									#88
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Why don't the French just ban religion? It would be fairly clear where they stand then. As it is, they're just banning religious children.

The point is not to ban religion, the point is to keep religious opinions out of school.

Is this a concept that nobody can understand ?

	12-02-2004 02:46									#89
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Akka The point is not to ban religion, the point is to keep religious opinions out of school. Is this a concept that nobody can understand ?

removing the free flow of information is a concept we are accustomed to.

we are generally against it.

so unfortunately tho u'd like that "no1 understood u." they actually do understand and merely disagree.

	12-02-2004 02:49									#90
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Kids shouldn't be educated ANY religious beliefs at all. Noone should talk to them about god, at all, until they're grown up, and can make those decisions themselves.

By that logic, kids shouldn't be educated any moral beliefs at all, until they are grown up and can make those decisions by themselves.