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Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
Emperor
McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:34
  Old Post 19-02-2004 03:07
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quote:

Cool, what do you call 10,000 Republicans on the bottom of the ocean? A good start!


I don't know what is sadder, the joke, or the fact you bothered to post it.

Wernazuma III is offline Wernazuma III
Emperor
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Aug 2000
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  Old Post 19-02-2004 04:59 Visit Wernazuma III's homepage!
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I will not engage into a discussion about cannibalism and human sacrifice, which surely could be a topic of its own.
However, I want to deposit my opinion that the joke in post #1 is racist.

The joke plays with common stereotypes of a "superior" culture on "backwards" cultures on very simple patterns based on a European Christian background.
"Primitive" cultures are most of the time considered to be a) cannibalistic and b) sodomitic as the two major factors of "barbarianism". It's btw. two attributes the bible mentions in the case of the Canaanites, who, because of this misbehaviour, could be expelled by the Jews from the Holy Land. This so called "Exodus-motive" has been used by European colonizers for centuries to justify their conquests and missions. Does it say anything about the historicity of the existance of sodomy and cannibalism in those cultures? Hardly. This argument, in turn, doesn't rule out the existance of cannibalism in an unspecified number of cultures. I just felt it necesary to point out that the identification chain "primitive-bougabouga-sodomite-cannibal" is a racist concept that stems from white-christian supremacy claims.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
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Dec 2002
time: 00:34
  Old Post 19-02-2004 05:25
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But there are superior cultures.

Classical Greek culture is, apart from its lassez-faire attitude towards paedophilia and slavery, superior to our own in almost every aspect. The quality of politicians and debate was superior, public architecture was superior, their literature and philosophy was superior, and their public entertainments make ours look like Britney Spears.

I suppose the last point is moot since our public entertainment is actually Britney Spears.

Dr Strangelove is offline Dr Strangelove
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USA
Jan 1970
time: 00:34
  Old Post 19-02-2004 05:33
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This entire thread is racist! You should not discriminate among respondants to your question according to marital preference. On behalf of married and all other non-single people I protest the very existance of this thread.

Oncle Boris is offline Oncle Boris
Prince
Once in a brown moon
Aug 2001
time: 00:34
  Old Post 19-02-2004 05:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
But there are superior cultures.

Classical Greek culture is, apart from its lassez-faire attitude towards paedophilia and slavery, superior to our own in almost every aspect. The quality of politicians and debate was superior, public architecture was superior, their literature and philosophy was superior, and their public entertainments make ours look like Britney Spears.

I suppose the last point is moot since our public entertainment is actually Britney Spears.


True, but the sad side of things is that it was made possible by the slaves, to the point most citizens didn't have to work.

Agathon is offline Agathon
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Dec 2002
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  Old Post 19-02-2004 05:37
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My main point is that people seem to think it is impossible to compare cultures. I mean, why not?

You make a list of desirable and undesirable traits and then measure them up.

Of course if you think that this is culturally relative then what you mean is that nothing is really better than anything else, which is a patently ridiculous view.

Oncle Boris is offline Oncle Boris
Prince
Once in a brown moon
Aug 2001
time: 00:34
  Old Post 19-02-2004 05:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
My main point is that people seem to think it is impossible to compare cultures. I mean, why not?

You make a list of desirable and undesirable traits and then measure them up.

Of course if you think that this is culturally relative then what you mean is that nothing is really better than anything else, which is a patently ridiculous view.


Yup, I definitely agree with you.

When the worse book you can get at the library is Gorgias' Non-Being (yeah, I know it is intended to be humorous, but at least it's quality humor) or Plato's Parmenides, it tells a lot about the quality of a culture.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
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Dec 2002
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  Old Post 19-02-2004 05:43
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Man, have you been reading Gorgias? I was looking at that recently.

Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
Emperor
McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:34
  Old Post 19-02-2004 05:44
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quote:

primitive-bougabouga-sodomite-cannibal


I don't make the connection between cannibal and sodomite, Wernazuma. Why would you?

Oncle Boris is offline Oncle Boris
Prince
Once in a brown moon
Aug 2001
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  Old Post 19-02-2004 05:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Man, have you been reading Gorgias? I was looking at that recently.


No, it was my teacher (who knows I like funny stuff) who suggested it to me. Is it worth it?

edit: funny within its philosophical context, to be more precise.

Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
Emperor
McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:34
  Old Post 19-02-2004 05:47
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quote:

or Plato's Parmenides, it tells a lot about the quality of a culture.


I agree with you that our culture needs work, and that in many ways we are worse off than the Greeks.

However,

quote:

apart from its lassez-faire attitude towards paedophilia and slavery,


Seem to me reasons to favour even today over the culture then.

The Mad Viking is offline The Mad Viking
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Feb 2000
time: 05:34
Arrow  Old Post 19-02-2004 18:13
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Henry Wellington Wack, 1905
The Story of the Congo Free State

A very detailed and balanced book, as free of bias as one can expect from a western source a century ago.

He describes over 100 tribes in his book, but alleges cannabilistic habits to only "a few".

quote:
It is not necessary in this place to give the names of all the tribes of which the native population of the vast Congo region is composed. They are numerous, and for the most part not easily pronouncable. Of the tribes not already referred to, the Basundis, Bakuendas, Batekas, Bayanzis, Batetelas, Mongos, Bantu, and Mombettus are most prominent. While differing in personal appearance, prowess, habits, and customs, clearly denoting that they are not descended from a common stock, there are not wanting certain traits which distinguish them all. All are polygamous, nearly all are cannibal, and the morals of the most advanced among them such as shock the average civilised man upon his first contact with them. Strangely inconsistent with the low moral sense which prevails among most of the tribes, some of them punish the crime of adultery with death, others by horribly mutilating the male offender. Cannibalism has long been suppressed by the Congo Government just as murder is suppressed among civilised communities; but the horrid practice is still indulged here and there, as opportunity occurs for evading the vigilance of the authorities. So recently as 1898, and possible to the present day, it was necessary to maintain a constant guard at the cemetery in Leopoldville, the chief station on the Upper Congo, to prevent the Bangalas unearthing the dead and carrying them off to feast upon. Several such cases were proved against them, and capital punishment had to be resorted to in order to stamp it out. This horrid subject is sickening to contemplate; but no description, however brief or superficial, of the Congo people, can ignore a fact which has occasioned, and still presents, such a tremendous difficulty for civilisation to surmount. This is but one of many difficulties with which the Congo Free State has had to contend, and those who sit in judgment upon that State should bear in mind that the Central African black is not by nature predisposed to civilisation. Not all the cannibal tribes are so repulsive and cruel as the Bangalas. Most of them eat no other human flesh but that of their enemies slain in battle. That source of supply will not suffice for the Bangalas, who make up it's deficiency with prisoners or slaves. Having broken their victim's limbs, they place him in a pool of water, with his head supported just above it's surface so that he may not drown. After having left him in that position for three days (if he survives that long), he is killed and eaten. Another method is to behead a victim, singe all the hair from the body over an ember fire, and then cut it into pieces for cooking. The portions not immediately eaten are smoke-dried and put aside for another occasion. The teeth are extracted and made into necklaces by the women. Sometimes the skin is used for drumheads.


This is one of scores of descriptions of congo basin cannabilism.

I fail to understand why racists trying to falsely paint a picture of savages would consistenly ascribe cannabilism to the Congo Basin tribes, and consistently NOT to scores of tribes in other parts of Africa; in dozens of documents written by English, French, German, Dutch, Belgian and American authors unfamiliar with each others works.

Instead, you choose to follow Arens crapology, who posits that canniblism is a myth and then seeks to prove it, and denies that it took place at all, even on Easter Island or New Guinea.

It is PC rubbish, and it is beneath you.

The PC are really just like conservatives. They don't think. They "know". Then they pick and choose facts, embrace supportive rumours, and string them together with rhetoric instead of logic to support what they "know."

Dr Strangelove is offline Dr Strangelove
King
USA
Jan 1970
time: 00:34
  Old Post 19-02-2004 18:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


I agree with you that our culture needs work, and that in many ways we are worse off than the Greeks.

However,



Seem to me reasons to favour even today over the culture then.


Yes, wouldn't it be wonderful if a popular vote could force people with obnoxious opinions to commit suicide? I wonder who.......?

Dr Strangelove is offline Dr Strangelove
King
USA
Jan 1970
time: 00:34
  Old Post 19-02-2004 18:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Viking
Henry Wellington Wack, 1905
The Story of the Congo Free State

A very detailed and balanced book, as free of bias as one can expect from a western source a century ago.

He describes over 100 tribes in his book, but alleges cannabilistic habits to only "a few".



This is one of scores of descriptions of congo basin cannabilism.

I fail to understand why racists trying to falsely paint a picture of savages would consistenly ascribe cannabilism to the Congo Basin tribes, and consistently NOT to scores of tribes in other parts of Africa; in dozens of documents written by English, French, German, Dutch, Belgian and American authors unfamiliar with each others works.

Instead, you choose to follow Arens crapology, who posits that canniblism is a myth and then seeks to prove it, and denies that it took place at all, even on Easter Island or New Guinea.

It is PC rubbish, and it is beneath you.

The PC are really just like conservatives. They don't think. They "know". Then they pick and choose facts, embrace supportive rumours, and string them together with rhetoric instead of logic to support what they "know."


It should be noted that the Belgian Congo gained a conspicous notoriety for its horrendously cruel treatment of its natives, so much so that the King of Belgium recieved letters of censures from virtually every goveernment of Europe. Belgian industrialists and plantation owners took natives as virtual slaves and forced them to work under conditions without the slightest regards for the native's health or lives. Tribes that resisted were brutally tortured and slaughtered. Families were taken hostage to ensure the enthusiasm of the workers. The mistreatment of Africans by the Belgians became the excuse for the gobbling up of the whole continent by the other colonial powers, as they scrambled to take the hapless natives under their "protection". I would deeply suspect the writings of a white man involved with colonial Africa during this period. People who abuse and persecute other people are well know to fabricate all sorts of rationalizations to excuse their treatment of their victims.

Sikander is offline Sikander
King
Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:34
  Old Post 19-02-2004 18:45
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap




Give me a freaking break: ANYONE here who says they imagined these "savages" as caucasians when reading the joke is a damned liar.

If I were to write:

So amos came and said "sure thing massa, i's going to get the food right now for ya'll" You certainly would assume Amos to be white, right? Cause these are all common white stereotypes, correct?

Give me a ****ing break: stereotypes are built on a common cultural heritage- a given set of assumptions that allow the stereotypes to work, and NO< they do not have to be spelled out for anyone who might not share that one common cultural knowledge. Now stop being dense.


I was actually thinking of feral English schoolboys like the ones in Lord of the Flies. It made the sodomy more credible.

Sikander is offline Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:34
  Old Post 19-02-2004 18:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


I don't make the connection between cannibal and sodomite, Wernazuma. Why would you?


What about that dude in Germany?

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:34
  Old Post 19-02-2004 20:46 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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Dr.S said it best. A colony which murdered over two million people is not a good source. Cannibalism may well have existed in those conditions, where people were starving to death by the millions, just as in St. Petersberg.

Doesn't sound like the same Congo that converted to Catholcism in the 16th Century and had an ambassador in Lisboa.

Wernazuma III is offline Wernazuma III
Emperor
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Aug 2000
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  Old Post 20-02-2004 02:12 Visit Wernazuma III's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


I don't make the connection between cannibal and sodomite, Wernazuma. Why would you?


Did I mention you personally? Take a look to post #1 and you'll find both cannibalism and sodomy mentioned as stereotypes of "inferior cultures"

@Agathon

Putting inferior in emphasis doesn't mean that I would deny that it can make sense to compare two different societies. The problem ist that people from "superior" cultures who are too aware of that superiority tend to look on members of "inferior" cultures as inferior people which, in turn, makes their own superiority very doubtful. Aristotle anyone? Again, this doesn't equal a cultural relativism.

Anyways, this thread wasn't asking whether or not cannibalism should be viewed as something bad or something neutral ( ) but whether or not stereotype jokes which of the Congo-bungabunga etc.-type are racist or not and I say as long as they aren't based on any reality, they are racist.

The Congo is by no means especially known or suspected for cannibalism or sodomy, but it is a topos for "wilderness" or "backward people from somewhere". IMHO, the only way to defend the position that the joke is not racist would be to prove the especially sodomitic and/or cannibalistic nature of (former) Congoan culutres.

The Mad Viking is offline The Mad Viking
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Feb 2000
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  Old Post 20-02-2004 02:45
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Dr.S said it best. A colony which murdered over two million people is not a good source. Cannibalism may well have existed in those conditions, where people were starving to death by the millions, just as in St. Petersberg.

Doesn't sound like the same Congo that converted to Catholcism in the 16th Century and had an ambassador in Lisboa.




So because the King of Belgium was a bad guy, we must discount the careful, scholarly writings of an American.

I wasn't aware that in the 16th century, the Congo was a country; nor that a country could convert to Catholicism. How many of the over 200 tribes could the ambassador represent? The Congo to this day is only half catholic. Who is believing the suspect imperial history here?

It is not a coincidence, IMO that the most inhospitable, difficult regions of dense tropical rainforest in the world all gave rise to some tribes with some cannabilistic tendencies. Congo, New Guinea, Amazon.

And then there is the Fang.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Jun 2000
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quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Viking
I wasn't aware that in the 16th century, the Congo was a country; nor that a country could convert to Catholicism.


It was and it did.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Viking
So because the King of Belgium was a bad guy, we must discount the careful, scholarly writings of an American.


No, because of the conditions that existed under Leopold we must discount the idea that anything that anyone observed under his reign was nomral. One might as well visit Aushwitz during the war and conclude that Jews don't like to eat.

Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
Emperor
McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 03:23
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Wernazuma:

It's a fricking joke.

I admit it does take the PC folks to task, though.

Firelad is offline Firelad
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Haifa, Israel.
May 2002
time: 07:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 03:56
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About humour etc. - we tell holocaust jokes all the time. At least my friends do. The kind of people I hang out with. They do get carried away with it occasionally, forgetting that there are other funny things in the world apart from holocaust-themed Audience Participation Lines at Rocky.
NM.
I like that joke btw. It's quite amusing.
And it's 10,000 BANJO PLAYERS at the bottom of the ocean, please!
(Me amateur banjo player btw. Only banjo players like banjo jokes.)

Wernazuma III is offline Wernazuma III
Emperor
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Wernazuma:

It's a fricking joke.


Yes, and a bad one, because a racist one.

quote:
I admit it does take the PC folks to task, though.


I didn't get a moral outrage because of the joke however, I just stated that it is racist, which in fact is true. I think it's opinion-Nazi to try to disavow my opinion by labeling it "PC".
If disapproving racist jokes makes me a PC loon, then be it so.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:34
  Old Post 21-02-2004 04:19
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quote:
Yes, and a bad one, because a racist one.


Damn, if you think that's a bad one because it is racist, then you miss out on a LOT of good jokes .

quote:
If disapproving racist jokes makes me a PC loon, then be it so.


You're a PC loon .

What happens if someone like Chris Rock tells a racist joke against blacks? Is that wrong.. does him being black matter?

Pax is offline Pax
Chieftain

Feb 2003
time: 05:34
  Old Post 21-02-2004 05:14
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This joke is not funny.
I heard it a long time ago.
Not racist in present form. I did not see a black person. If you mention cannibals I think of the Pacific Islands. Probably from too much gilligan's island. When I hear sodomy I think of Greeks and Romans.

Comedians like Chris Rock may make everyone laugh but they are not saying the same things to every person that hears it. A lot of his comedy speaks on things that are bothering him as an 1. American 2. Black 3. Man 4. New Yorker and etc. You may connect on different levels. Lastly, his comedy speaks to things to change, to discuss, to think about. It's without malice or hate.

The BMW joke. Black man's wish racist
The Womback joke, Black guy helping a guy back his car in "Womback!!!" racist
Archie Bunker personifying bigotry to show American society how ridiculous it is- not racist

Last edited by Pax on 21-02-2004 at 05:20

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:34
  Old Post 21-02-2004 05:17
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quote:
It's without malice or hate.


Indeed, but I don't think this joke is with any malice or hate... it's just to get a laugh.

Wernazuma III is offline Wernazuma III
Emperor
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
You're a PC loon .


The PC loons I know would counter the joke by denying the possibility of cannibalistic cultures in the Congo itself.

quote:
What happens if someone like Chris Rock tells a racist joke against blacks? Is that wrong.. does him being black matter?

I don't know Chris Rock, so I can't tell, but a joke remains racist if it's racist, no matter whether the performer is black or white. It can change the meaning, however, depending on the larger context in which it is told. To discover the real meaning one has to know the circumstances, that's called hermeneutic analysis.
In the ordinary "pub-5-beers-harhar" situation the joke would be racist.
The topos of a connection black people-cannibalism is part of a tendentially hateful and demeaning image of Africans. A few months ago I came across an American Nazi or KKK site and on top of the page there was a collage of a photo with a black man and a cooking pot and a white man in it...

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:34
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quote:
The topos of a connection black people-cannibalism is part of a tendentially hateful and demeaning image of Africans. A few months ago I came across an American Nazi or KKK site and on top of the page there was a collage of a photo with a black man and a cooking pot and a white man in it...


Actually I think you may be more racist than the joke. It said NOTHING about cannibals!

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Firelad
About humour etc. - we tell holocaust jokes all the time. At least my friends do. The kind of people I hang out with.


For shame.

 
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