24-02-2004 07:05									#61
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If I may make some suggestions (or rather questions to ask ourselves) on trashing Lucky:

1) How are we going to raise the issue initially at the UN? Right out of the blue or are we going to bring it up along with the WW debate?

2) Are we going to make public the PM correspondance?

3) How will we present our official accusation? (rather, how will we word it?)

With regards to 3) I can only think of a steretopyical court case argument:

A - We present the facts: the impossibly low probability of Lucky's attack results

B - We present the murder weapon: Lucky's knowledge of the RNG and his ability to alter the game for this purpose. His constant experiments with the RNG which means he was more than capable of altering game results.

C - We present the motive: Lucky's desire to win and hamper us at all costs, as evident with his continual excuses on circumventing the WW issue as well as his general attitude towards exploits both in this game and in the C3C ISDG.

Obviously Togas being a REAL lawyer is more than well suited to think of something convincing.

-MZ

	24-02-2004 07:11									#62
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also we point out a very important thing: our case is primarily against Lucky, the person. We do not want to imply that all of GCA are cheaters since they might have very well not been involved in the actual cheating process and just duped by their "flawless" leader into thinking they indeed have extrordinary luck. This might actually get his own team to possibly speak out against him... (at least it's worth a shot)

	24-02-2004 07:14									#63
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I am against us publishing the PM records of my dialogue with Lucky at this time.

I do not believe that would be helpful to the state of the game and I don't believe it would even help Apolyton right now.

If GCA and/or GWT start having absolutely rediculous luck against CGN, that would be a different story.

	24-02-2004 07:18									#64
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Well then I don't see how we can really win out a cheating argument with him. I think what Togas, myself and a few others have been suggesting is that not only do we solve the WW issue but we "drop da bomb" regarding GCA in general.

	24-02-2004 07:40									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Well then I don't see how we can really win out a cheating argument with him. I think what Togas, myself and a few others have been suggesting is that not only do we solve the WW issue but we "drop da bomb" regarding GCA in general.

I think a more opportune time to "drop da bomb" is when there is a FRESH example of GCA potentially cheating.

Right now, I honestly don't think it would help us or the game.

	24-02-2004 07:44									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos I think a more opportune time to "drop da bomb" is when there is a FRESH example of GCA potentially cheating. Right now, I honestly don't think it would help us or the game.

Unfortunately ... this is true.

	24-02-2004 07:47									#67
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there will likely never be a "fresh" example.

Well, back to just negotiating WW... (with everyone BUT Lucky...)

	24-02-2004 08:06									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos I think a more opportune time to "drop da bomb" is when there is a FRESH example of GCA potentially cheating. Right now, I honestly don't think it would help us or the game.

Agreed.

We aren't going to win any sympathy with the "Lucky is cheating" card while we're trying to get WW sorted out...

	24-02-2004 08:22									#69
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draft of PM to Lucky

Lucky,

I have taken over as the primary diplomatic contact between GCA and Apolyton. Arnelos is too exhausted and too frustrated by the failure of the past week's negotiations and has asked me to reassume duties which, by our laws, are really mine to undertake.

I can clearly see that you seem to want to extract some sort of price for peace, and that you feel Apolyton should pay that price.

As you are already aware, Apolyton's economy has paid dearly for your refusal to sign a peace agreement, and we absolutely refuse to pay further for something which should have been concluded long ago.

Furthermore, making demands that we pay you for something that you have no right to extort only exasperates our current relations and opinions of you personally, and has caused quite an uproar amongst our team. The few individuals on our team who praised you for your candor and recent generosity (willingness to disband 50% of your troops for the benefit of peace) have been laughed at and made fools of by your own recantations and levying of further demands upon us.

If you continue to issue demands upon us and refuse to make peace I believe that I have no choice but to bring forth to the UN and to the public, including those who are participating in the C3C Intersite game, your disturbing practice of determining the random seed and using that out-of-game knowledge to unfairly manipulate the odds to your favor.

Personally, I find it a clear and appauling abuse of the save and I cannot wait to see what other civ players think of such a practice, especially in a game as important as this.

end draft

Thoughts? Too harsh?

--Togas

	24-02-2004 08:28									#70
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I don't think it's too harsh at all. It's clear, concise, and honest. If he's going to play hardball, he's going to have to be ready to take a few bruises.

	24-02-2004 08:34									#71
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Too harsh. If we're going to send a PM that harsh, why bother sending one at all?

I'd tone it down a bit.

But that's just my opinion. I imagine the balance of the team probably thinks it's not harsh enough.

	24-02-2004 08:34									#72
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quote: If you continue to issue demands upon us and refuse to make peace I believe that I have no choice but to bring forth to the UN and to the public, including those who are participating in the C3C Intersite game, your disturbing practice of determining the random seed and using that out-of-game knowledge to unfairly manipulate the odds to your favor.

This is so wrong.

Please deal with in-game affairs diplomatically, meta-game affairs through the UN, and inter-game affairs not at all. Publicly defacing Lucky in order to win this game is just bad form (to put it mildly).

Need I remind you all that this was precisely BigFree's tactic recently at the UN? And just look how mad you guys were over that...


Dominae

	24-02-2004 08:37									#73
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the thing about that parragraph in question is that it basically affirms that Lucky cheated. Which of course we are not 100% sure of...

other than that, the letter is fine, he deserves no less.

	24-02-2004 08:40									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae This is so wrong. Please deal with in-game affairs diplomatically, meta-game affairs through the UN, and inter-game affairs not at all. Publicly defacing Lucky in order to win this game is just bad form (to put it mildly). Need I remind you all that this was precisely BigFree's tactic recently at the UN? And just look how mad you guys were over that... Dominae

They must be throwing snowballs in hell. I actually agree with much of Dominae's argument on a diplomacy matter.

The prospect of us NOT defacing Lucky in public is the hitch that's gotten us so much out of him over the past week. His desire to not be defaced in public is SO STRONG that in my view it's been clouding his judgement.

Lucky responds to POSITIVE incentives such as this... you dangle a carrot in front of this guy and he'll willingly jump off the cliff. That's why he fell to the temptation to cheat, that's why he's willing to do quite a bit to have us not defacing his name in rumors and in public.

By contrast, Lucky responds extremely poorly to negative incentives. Berating him will only get a wiseass rebuttal back and no progress on peace.

	24-02-2004 08:45									#75
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Yes, if you to deface Lucky, please do so on your own time.

As Arnelos points out, it would not even have the intended effect.


Dominae

	24-02-2004 08:51									#76
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I dunno... I have a different opinion of Lucky's character.

From what I've seen, Lucky is a person who has a big giant secret. In this case the cheating incident. The more we seem to get close to revealing this, the more willing he is to compromise precisely to avoid it being cut loose to the public. The only reason we've been able to get him to disclose some of the things he has is 1) he gets to show off his knowledge of Civ and thus prove his intellectual superiority by arguing us regarding the RNG 2) the threat that this info if shown in public might lead to GCA's lynching in the demo game community.

With that in mind, the tactic to use against Lucky is to actually present an argument that he CAN'T defend against. So far he has been quite smug in assuming that he can rebuttle any argument about WW/Replaying/Teleporting etc. Why? Because actually has a small bit of argument to cling to. He DOESN'T have this when the cheating argument is brought up which is why he is so willing to compromise on it rather than offer another of his wiseass replies.

Lucky is, in essense, the high-IQ murderer who just got caught. He likes to mess with his interrogators and flaunt his intelligence. BUT, when actually confronded with incriminating evidence, he changes tone. What all these messages have shown is that the cheating issue IS his major weakness, and that if we ever want to get anything out of him is to threaten/corner him with it.

-MZ

	24-02-2004 08:59									#77
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See, I think the prospect of us coming out and trying to help clear his name was what got him to start salivating. It was the idea that he could outsmart us into believeing he didn't cheat afterall... that REALLY got him going.

I'm not sure that switching from carrot to stick would work. Or at least we'd have to have something pretty good to use on him. This isn't an interrogation chamber, afterall... Lucky has an audience in the form of the membership of his own team, a membership that probably doesn't fully understand what Lucky did and is extremely insulted by the cheating allegation (and rightly so, THEY didn't cheat... AFAWK, only Lucky did).

	24-02-2004 09:07									#78
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Which is exactly why I mentioned above that if there are any accusations done it should be directed at Lucky the person, not GCA the team.

Btw, I am nost saying that we SHOULD hardball him. I am content with having the WW issue resolved and leaving at that. But if we are to dwell into the cheating issue, it has to be with full force

	24-02-2004 09:15									#79
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I also think a harsh message has nothing to gain, and at least something to lose.

What are we trying to get him to do? Break down and cry and admit he's a horrible person and give us peace immediately?

We say "thanks, but sorry." (if anything) and be on our merry way. Peace in 6 turns (after we sink that Galley).

	24-02-2004 09:59									#80
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There is no "carrot" to offer Lucky. There is only the "stick".

I'll make a few things clear:

I do not agree with the opinion that we should sit in silence about what we know regarding Lucky's horribly damning confessions. I don't agree that we should sit in silence because, frankly, it's not doing us a damn bit of good, nor is it doing the civ community any good.

We're assuming he knows what's good for him and that he'll cooperate if we cooperate by protecting his secret. Are we? Have we agreed to do so, and if so, how can we then become aghast at the obvious consequences of him not cooperating?

We either go the silent route that I mentioned above (go straight to GWT and ignore Lucky) or we play this straight with Lucky. If we have the stomach to suck up to him and keep quiet about his misdeeds, we clearly have the stomach to bring this horrible abuse out into the open.

What's it going to be?

--Togas

	24-02-2004 10:27									#81
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i think we ned to agree on what the goals are first.

Get rid of war weariness and move on?

Or make sure Lucky is exposed?

And if the other three teams and us agree on WW, do we need Lucky?

Lets decide what we want the end state to be first, then decide what we are going to do to get there.

	24-02-2004 10:29									#82
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* Master Zen is currently chatting with mongoose about having a ruling if all 4 non-GCA teams agree to ban WW exploits.

So far so good.

	24-02-2004 10:50									#83
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quote: [23:14] * mongoose201 has joined #isdgfamtalks [23:14] [mongoose201] Ta Da...... [23:14] [MasterZen] howdy [23:14] [ZargonX2] hey, mongoose [23:14] [mongoose201] greetings all! [23:15] * Trip has joined #isdgfamtalks [23:15] * conmcb25_FTD has joined #isdgfamtalks [23:15] [MasterZen] I see everyone wants the gossip [23:15] [mongoose201] damn... did you lure me in here to beat me up? [23:15] [MasterZen] well... sorta [23:15] [mongoose201] I show up and everyone else does [23:16] [conmcb25_FTD] let the gang bang begin [23:16] [MasterZen] you are just very popular [23:16] [MasterZen] I wanted to talk a bit about the WW issue [23:16] [mongoose201] Say hello to my little friend.... (with my best fake Cuban accent) [23:17] [mongoose201] ok, I'm really disappointed, we were so close to a solution [23:17] [MasterZen] please don't mind the other 6 guys armed with clubs, chains and switchblades [23:18] [MasterZen] we've been trying to reach a compromise on the use of WW as a war tactic [23:18] [MasterZen] so far Poly, CGN, CFC and even GWT seem to agree, the problem is, as usual GCA [23:18] [mongoose201] no! I'm shocked [23:19] * Trip grins rabidly from the corner, sharpening his blade on the wall [23:19] [MasterZen] if you saw some of Lucky's responses to us... you'd laugh, then cry [23:19] [mongoose201] I can imagine.... /me lobs a flash/bang in Trips direction [23:19] [mongoose201] damn..didn't work [23:19] [MasterZen] lol [23:20] * MasterZen is now known as Pinhead [23:20] * Togas is now known as TogasAFK [23:20] [Pinhead] 6We have decided therefore... that Lucky must join us... IN HELL [23:20] * Pinhead is now known as MasterZen [23:20] [mongoose201] lol [23:21] [Trip] never mess with evil medallion-box-things [23:21] * MasterZen is now known as Pinhead [23:21] [Pinhead] 6Lucky played with the RNG box. We came... now his suffering will be legendary! [23:22] * Pinhead is now known as MasterZen [23:22] [MasterZen] ok, now, seriously, what we wanted to see if Poly/CFC/CGN/GWT reached an agreement regarding WW would we get a ruling even if Lucky *****es and moans about it? [23:23] [MasterZen] because we are really sick and tired of arguing him [23:23] [mongoose201] hehe... we could put it to a team vote which is what lucky has always loved because he always thinks he will have GWT on his side [23:23] * MasterZen is now known as Pinhead [23:23] [Pinhead] 6 of course... we have OTHER methods of persuasion [23:23] * Pinhead is now known as MasterZen [23:24] [MasterZen] well in this case, GWT isn't stupid. They know that if they take our two gifted cities, it'll cause them WW [23:24] [MasterZen] they don't want to happen to them what GCA did to us [23:24] [mongoose201] certainly not [23:25] [mongoose201] smart of you to make them come to that conclusion BTW.... much more effective than argueing it [23:25] [MasterZen] arguing it in the UN will only result in another round of flamefests [23:26] [MasterZen] not that I don't find it enjoyable but enough is enough, I want to play the save before I get married and have kids [23:26] [Arnelos_NAP_PBEM] lol [23:27] [mongoose201] yes, that would be nice... if you could get GWT to come along, the GCA can (insert gross reference here) as far as I'm concerned [23:27] [MasterZen] good [23:27] [MasterZen] so, if we reach a 4-way arrangement can you officially rule on it and have Lucky shove it? [23:28] * MasterZen is now known as Pinhead [23:28] [Pinhead] 6of course, we could get more creative in his agony! [23:28] * Pinhead is now known as MasterZen [23:28] [mongoose201] no, because it seems my rulings are considered optional ideas for arguement (partly my fault)... I'm tired of saying something and someone just basically saying shove it, we're not gonna.... We'll put it to a vote [23:29] [MasterZen] exactly, vote would be 4 - 1. Thus it would pass [23:29] [mongoose201] correct [23:29] [Arnelos_NAP_PBEM] GCA are GWT's *****es now anyways [23:30] [mongoose201] yep [23:30] [Arnelos_NAP_PBEM] if need be, they can tighten the leash [23:30] * Arnelos_NAP_PBEM is now known as Arnelos [23:30] [mongoose201] Lucky told me that if GWT wins, then GCA does also by proxy (paraphrased) since they are allied [23:31] [mongoose201] bullshit [23:31] [MasterZen] lol [23:31] [MasterZen] small consolation of being a runt appendage [23:31] [Trip] let them think what they want [23:31] [mongoose201] [23:31] [conmcb25_FTD] Its small cosolatio for him having a 2 inch dick [23:31] [MasterZen] it's pretty obvious that if GWT wins... GWT wins. [23:31] [Arnelos] GWT doesn't even need GCA [23:32] [Arnelos] the investigations probably spent more money than they were worth in any case... the only investigation that would could is a GCA investigation of Agincourt... if they did that, money well spent... but then again, may not be... to many turns in between. [23:32] [mongoose201] nope... Lucky is just their cabana boy [23:32] [MasterZen] in english = ***** [23:33] [mongoose201] don't quote me on that... that wasn't very nice...lol [23:33] * Arnelos is now known as Arnelos_Parliament [23:33] [MasterZen] i'll put it in my sig at CDG, don't worry, no-one will see it since I will never see a turn again and thus never have to post [23:33] [mongoose201] haha [23:34] [MasterZen] well, after this I finally see the light at the end of the tunnel... [23:40] * conmcb25_FTD is now known as conmcb25_sleeping [23:43] * ZargonX2 has quit IRC (Quit: sleeptime)

In summary, if we get GWT to agree that's 4 teams, we put it to vote, and it passes. And thus, Lucky gets to shove it.

Still open to debate is whether we bring up the cheating incident.

	24-02-2004 13:33									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Need I remind you all that this was precisely BigFree's tactic recently at the UN? And just look how mad you guys were over that... Dominae

Go figure!

A hero...a dog... it all changes so quickly.

	25-02-2004 00:05									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae This is so wrong. Please deal with in-game affairs diplomatically, meta-game affairs through the UN, and inter-game affairs not at all. Publicly defacing Lucky in order to win this game is just bad form (to put it mildly). Need I remind you all that this was precisely BigFree's tactic recently at the UN? And just look how mad you guys were over that... Dominae

You don't have to publically deface someone by resorting to insults and provocations. If we feel we have a case against him, we do with the facts, let him respond and then let the people judge him.

	25-02-2004 05:10									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen You don't have to publically deface someone by resorting to insults and provocations. If we feel we have a case against him, we do with the facts, let him respond and then let the people judge him.

So I didn't state the facts in my posts?

I said Lucky lacks common sense. Fact or Not?

I said Lucky most proably cheated. Fact or not?

I said GCA ran away from our battles like a chicken? Fact or not?


Definition:
chicken=afraid to fight a battle because you fear you will lose more than your opponent.

Now, could I have inserted the above words instead of the shorter version of "chicken"? Probably, but it lacks zip. Why not let them know our feelings? Are we ashamed of them? Was i intending to be 'nice' about it? Absolutely not. Was I as insulting as i possibly could have been? You ain't read insulting yet from me!

Does every situation call for such tactics? No. But sometimes it just feels right.

	25-02-2004 06:09									#87
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Um... let's try to keep this thread about GCA diplomacy. MZ's response was directed at Togas' PM, not you, BF.

	25-02-2004 07:05									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos MZ's response was directed at Togas' PM, not you, BF.

It was?

I don't see how I was advocating any sort of public insults and provication. I was posting a DRAFT copy of a PM designed to counter-threaten Lucky, a PM that received a happy reception in our chat room, and one that I was asked to write as no one else seemed to have the stomach for it.

I'm p*ssed off that Arnelos would assume or imply that I'd advocate publicly insulting or provoking someone.

I'm annoyed at the current state of things on our team and the level of conflict that seems to be brewing. There seems to be too much politicing going on and too much finger-pointing. I much prefer to stay out of this and will discontinue getting involved in any sort of future Lucky manipulation schemes.

Arnelos, you can deal with him yourself.

--Togas

	25-02-2004 07:14									#89
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:sigh:

Togas,

I'm not the one saying you're trying to degrade Lucky in public. Even then, MZ simply meant your post was not appropriate... he obviously doesn't think any less of you and neither do I. Calm down, man.

I do disagree with the tone of your post, as I already posted above. I don't think it would be productive to our goals to send Lucky a PM which includes your last paragraph or so about how we will threaten to out him in public. I just don't think Lucky responds well to threats.

You asked for feedback and we've given you feedback.

All I wanted was for you to revise your PM to take that part out.

Is it just me or is everyone, (admittedly myself included of late) rather oversensitive lately? We need to get back to discussing issues we disagree on without assuming that every time someone disagrees with us on an issue, it constitutes a personal attack... it doesn't.

I'm not trying to discredit you or your work Togas, you should know that.

- Arnelos

	25-02-2004 07:17									#90
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Togas: I think Arnelos was not really thinking cleary when he posted what he did. I don't think he was saying so much that MZ or him feel your proposal was "advocating any sort of public insults and provication." In so much that he was merely trying to critisize my post that rebutted MZ's post.

Arnelos was trying to say that MZ's post was not directed specifically at me and thus was not an attack. Arnelos made the mistake of assuming it was directed at you instead. Frankly, I don't think he really read MZ's post carefully because it was not directed at you, but instead me or to those that would be in favor of such "public insults and provication."