27-02-2004 12:07									#121
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Fully agreed.

whomever has Mongoose's direct line please contact him (and post that you did). Tell him that we need to know that if we disband those two cities and offer peace to GCA, would they have to accept it now that there's been 5+ turns without war, and there's no reasonable way for a war to continue between us.

Tell him we need a ruling before we send off our turn. Let him know that we'll wait, if necessary.

--Togas

	27-02-2004 12:52									#122
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I'll try and catch Mongoose if he logs into MSN. He's a bit irregular but perhaps I'll get lucky tomorrow

-MZ

	15-06-2004 07:30									#123
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Got this from Lucky about the war. (Posted by Trip)

quote: Simple question, did Apolyton declare war on us again? At least the game thinks so, since we are at war. If that was not intended, we might have run into a bug here, since we did not declare war. This is further underlined by the fact that GWT saw a message that we declared war on you, but thatīs definitely not the case. I didnīt even touch the diplo screen and neither did I attack any of your units (as thatīs not possible atm ). If the state of war was intended, then it would have been common courtesy on your part to at least drop a small note our way, so that no confusion arises. We know you are traitors, but at least respect the ISDG rules and declare war instead if secretly activating it. So, please clear this up, as weīd need to replay if it is bug and therefore not too much time and turns should pass that need to be replayed. Thank you. Lucky Gamecatcher Alliance

Here is the proposed reply:

quote: Lucky We did not declare war or attack any of your units. After discussion we came to the conclusion that since 20 turns has passed since the peace treaty it simply cancelled itself out. And this is an oversight on both our parts. We dont believe a replay is necessary and will certainly be happy to accept a peace proposal after 5 turns has past per the rules we have agreed upon for this game. conmcb25 Deputy Foriegn Affairs Minister Apolyton

I say let him chew on this and scream a little

All we have to say is this is our rules interpretation, if we want to cjhange it then we need to discuss it at the UN, that should delay this for a while at least.

	15-06-2004 07:37									#124
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I think we should send this as is. It's perfect for the bunghole!

	15-06-2004 07:44									#125
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Leave out the "oversaight on BOTH our parts". It was not an oversight on our part, it was theirs.

We will not replay simply because it is a mistake that GCA should've have noticed immediately. Other than that, the message is fine.

	15-06-2004 07:48									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Leave out the "oversaight on BOTH our parts". It was not an oversight on our part, it was theirs. We will not replay simply because it is a mistake that GCA should've have noticed immediately. Other than that, the message is fine.

Do you agree to the waiting 5 turns MZ, at least as our starting position in negotiation?

I can change the oversight issue, no problem

	15-06-2004 08:10									#127
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Looks like we are polling this

Ill change my response, Ill have it up in a minute......

	15-06-2004 08:16									#128
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quote: Lucky We did not declare war or attack any of your units. After discussion we came to the conclusion that since 20 turns has passed since the peace treaty it simply cancelled itself out. This seems to be mearly an oversight on your part. We do however take exception to the tone of your corrospondence. It unfortunately does nothing to try and bring any semblence of civility to this game. We are currently polling what we should do about this issue and will get back to you as soon as we have answer. conmcb25 Deputy Foriegn Affairs Minister Apolyton

	15-06-2004 18:58									#129
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What a ****ing *******. I think I actually hate that guy.

We should still give them peace ASAP (without having any cities go into disorder as a result, though).

-Arrian

	15-06-2004 19:05									#130
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I'm not sure if I'm out of line here, but here is my proposed re-draft (including a couple of typo fixes):

quote: Lucky We did not declare war or attack any of your units. After discussion we came to the conclusion that since 20 turns has passed since the peace treaty it simply cancelled itself out. We take exception to the tone of your correspondence. It does nothing to try and bring any semblence of civility to this game. We are currently polling what we should do about this issue and will get back to you as soon as we have answer. conmcb25 Deputy Foriegn Affairs Minister Apolyton

What I really WANT to say is something else entirely: how in the hell can that cheating bastard insinuate that WE are breaking the rules!

-Arrian

	15-06-2004 19:14									#131
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The consensus in chat last night Arrian was that this was his oversight.

He initially offerred us peace.

So he should have re-offerred it, after it expired.

But if everyone believes I should leave that sentence out, then its fine with me

	15-06-2004 19:19									#132
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Well, I just think that we either don't sink to his level by including any snide remarks at all (my version) or we return fire and just let him have it (the version I'd LIKE to write). The adult in me says just send the sanitized version and, other than a comment on his tone, ignore his childish taunts.

-Arrian

	15-06-2004 19:21									#133
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Point well taken

	15-06-2004 22:44									#134
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Arrian's draft is good.

--Togas

	16-06-2004 01:51									#135
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I like Arrian's draft as well. My only addition would be the word "an" before "answer" in the final sentence.

	16-06-2004 01:54									#136
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Doh, missed that! I read right over it.

-Arrian

	16-06-2004 05:09									#137
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I believe that this message does not relay our "point" most effectively. We must ensure that they clearly understand what we mean.

I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds when I give suggestions. However, here, is my draft of our message to Lucky:

quote: ..|.. [Poster] [Deputy] Foreign Affairs Minister Apolyton

	16-06-2004 06:46									#138
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my much harsher suggestion

quote: Lucky, We did not declare war or attack any of your units. After discussion we came to the conclusion that since 20 turns has passed since the peace treaty it simply cancelled itself out due to your team's failure to renegotiate the deal in-game. Because of this, we are sending peace to your team accepted this turn. However, we will not agree to a replay since it is not a bug, but rather an oversight on behalf of your team. Nevertheless, we take exception to the tone of your correspondence. It does nothing to try and bring any semblence of civility to this game. Given the technical nature of this problem we find it rather deplorable that you imply that we are breaking the ISDG rules, not to mention your accusation of treachery which has nothing to do with the issue at hand. In short, let us continue with our normal relations and try to act in a way to make this game more enjoyable for both our sides. conmcb25 Deputy Foriegn Affairs Minister Apolyton

That should piss him off a bit, and he really can't whine about it since we ARE sending him peace

	16-06-2004 07:08									#139
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I think Arrian's draft (probably with a new last sentence since the poll seems decisive) is best. But if we want to get in to another pointless argument - err, I mean, if we want to try to annoy him, MZ's works.

	16-06-2004 07:12									#140
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Eh, not matter what letter we send. Mention nothing about a bug, because IT IS a bug in the game. :-/

	16-06-2004 07:20									#141
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Is that the one we really want to send MZ???????

	16-06-2004 07:32									#142
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Send Arrian's.

--Togas

	16-06-2004 07:34									#143
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Arrian

	16-06-2004 09:30									#144
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Send mrmitchell's.

	16-06-2004 11:51									#145
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I would like a subdued response, but given his past expressions on how an 'expert' can anticipate the nuances of the game and produce several straight victories of horse over mercs without a single loss, not to mention GLs out of a hand full of combats, I would like some mention of how an 'expert' might have realised that he would be in exactly this situation in a PBEM after a peace expired. That is if he is 'expert' after all.

	16-06-2004 12:07									#146
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit Eh, not matter what letter we send. Mention nothing about a bug, because IT IS a bug in the game. :-/

No it's not a bug. This happens when you don't click on "automatically renegotiate deals" in the Ctrl-P screen. Lucky missed it, his mistake, he pays for it



btw, my proposed letter was meant in jest, it is of course, rather harsh

	16-06-2004 16:22									#147
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I would like a subdued response, but given his past expressions on how an 'expert' can anticipate the nuances of the game and produce several straight victories of horse over mercs without a single loss, not to mention GLs out of a hand full of combats, I would like some mention of how an 'expert' might have realised that he would be in exactly this situation in a PBEM after a peace expired. That is if he is 'expert' after all.

I liked the sentence: "This seems to mearly be an oversight on your part." Sentence but that was removed in the Arrian rewrite and everyone seems to agree with that edit.

I thought it was civil, yet a subtle to jab to this "expert Civ player".

But thats OK, Ill wait till we get closer to playing the turn then Ill send it.

	16-06-2004 18:43									#148
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I actually thought about including exactly what NYE suggested: a shot at Lucky's "expert capable of producing magical battle results" status, but left it out of my draft.

Reason being that I think it ultimately serves no useful purpose.

Look, I hate Lucky as much as anyone, and I'd love to write him a long note about how ridiculous he's being, and how he's an ******* for suggesting WE'RE cheaters when he's the one who clearly cheated, etc, etc.

Thing is, that will not solve a thing. The question before the team really is: do we wish to attempt a speedy resolution of this issue, or do we wish to get into a pissing match with Lucky?

If we wish the former, I suggest we send a short, simple note with as little Lucky-baiting as possible. We all know he's capable of pettiness in the extreme. Do we really want to pick a fight over this? I'd rather just ignore his bullshit and just try to get past this thing.

Since it appears we agree we don't want to replay any turns, I'd send this redraft:

quote: Lucky We did not declare war or attack any of your units. After discussion we came to the conclusion that since 20 turns has passed since the peace treaty it simply cancelled itself out. Had the "automatically renegotiate deals" option been on, the game should have given you a popup to renew the peace treaty, but that appears not to have occurred. Since you did not renew it, it lapsed and we're at war again. The simple solution to this for all concerned is to simply make peace ASAP. We will offer you peace accepted as soon as we can, you can accept it, and the issue should be resolved. We take exception to the tone of your correspondence. It does nothing to try and bring any semblence of civility to this game. Apolyton was as surprised by the state of war as you were. There was no need to accuse us of cheating. conmcb25 Deputy Foriegn Affairs Minister Apolyton

How's that?

-Arrian

	16-06-2004 19:02									#149
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I agree and Im adding a change just to make sure the letter "flows" better:

quote: Lucky We did not declare war or attack any of your units. After discussion we came to the conclusion that since 20 turns has passed since the peace treaty it simply cancelled itself out. Had the "automatically renegotiate deals" option been on, the game should have given you a popup to renew the peace treaty, but that appears not to have occurred. Since you did not renew it, it lapsed and we're at war again. The simple solution to this for all concerned is to simply make peace ASAP. We will offer you peace accepted as soon as we can, you can accept it, and the issue should be resolved. Now that we have that settled we feel the need to take exception to the tone of your correspondence. It does nothing to try and bring any semblence of civility to this game. Apolyton was as surprised by the state of war as you were. There was no need to accuse us of cheating. conmcb25 Deputy Foriegn Affairs Minister Apolyton

I think that just makes it read and flow better.

	16-06-2004 20:52									#150
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Send it.

--Togas