24-02-2004 01:16									#1
	Short-Rushing Plans Full PM-box? Change here!

As discussed here: http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...threadid=108823

Shall we accept ET's plans for a short rushing certain items at certain times?

	24-02-2004 01:30									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

This was already voted on via the vote in the other direction... whether we would spend money on the loan over short-rushing.

You are re-polling the same issue. In fact, not a single turn has been PLAYED since we polled this issue last.

	24-02-2004 01:39									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

This poll is also flawed since nowhere have we stated that we will not short-rush in the future (read: after the loan)

	24-02-2004 02:03									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos This was already voted on via the vote in the other direction... whether we would spend money on the loan over short-rushing. You are re-polling the same issue. In fact, not a single turn has been PLAYED since we polled this issue last.

We have never polled whether to accept (or not) ET's plan exactly as he laid it out. I'm sorry if you don't like the poll, but your misrepresentation of the facts bothers me.

	24-02-2004 02:05									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen This poll is also flawed since nowhere have we stated that we will not short-rush in the future (read: after the loan)

We cannot hope that every possible circumstance will be covered by one poll. ET made a pitch for a Short-Rush plan. This poll says either we accept it or we don't.

If we accept it then we do, that's that!

If we don't then ET or someone else can submit another plan for discussion and a poll.

	24-02-2004 13:34									#6
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Please vote in this poll.

	24-02-2004 23:05									#7
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Please include a 'banana' option ;-)

	24-02-2004 23:44									#8
	Got spare money?

for those who have voted yes, if we short-rush during these next few turns we will not have enough gold to loan to CGN which means they will not have enough to upgrade Muskets and you can pretty much kiss them goodbye.

	25-02-2004 00:58									#9
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If both this poll and the other poll pass, what are we to do?

I suppose we honor this poll over the other one since it was passed after the other one, but they are in conflict.

[b]Allow me to explain.

Short-rushing in the next few turns essentially means that we value 2 workers not being joined to Apolyton Prime more than we value 2 CGN Pikeman to Musketman upgrades. The difference is really that simple.

If we use the money that E_T wants to use for short-rushing on another 2 CGN Pike->Musket upgrades, they get 2 more Musketmen and we have to expend ~2 workers to pump up the size of AP for the palace jump. If we use E_T's plan, we spend the money that would have gotten spent on those CGN upgrades on saving all of 2 workers in the south from being joined to AP.

Considering that the money sent to CGN is a LOAN that we could even get back (should they survive) and that helping them (in the event we CAN) is far more critical than 2 stinking workers in the south, this should be obvious.

VOTE NO

Here's what we SHOULD DO:

* If we (team) determine that sending a loan to CGN would be a waste of our money because CGN is going to go down the toilet regardless, we can consider authorizing E_T's short-rushing plan with the same money. Of course, then the question becomes whether 100 gold is better spent saving 2 measly workers or better spent ON RESEARCH, AS ORIGINALLY INTENDED. That said, at least the funds will be available.

* If we (as a team) determine that CGN has enough shot to win the war that a 600+ gold loan from Apolyton so that they can upgrade pikemen to musketmen is advisable, WE DO NOT DO ANY SHORT-RUSHES THAT WILL REDUCE THE NUMBER OF UNITS CGN CAN UPGRADE.

A lot hinges on whether we, as a team, perceive that CGN has a chance of making it and what role our loan would play in helping them do so. Since that time HAS NOT YET COME, it is not yet advisable to give a blanket response of the nation will authorize X over Y. All this would do is tie the Consuls hands down into a potentialy disadvantageous policy when the turn comes that E_T wants to short-rush and CGN happens to need our loan at the same time.

Vote no.

	25-02-2004 03:06									#10
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I'm not voting until Gunpowder is researched, and we get a better feel for how the war is going.

CGN are a bunch of screw-ups. I dont feel confortable lending them money. But neither do I feel comfortable about locking in a vote to spend our money elsewhere at this stage.

	25-02-2004 03:19									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel I'm not voting until Gunpowder is researched, and we get a better feel for how the war is going. CGN are a bunch of screw-ups. I dont feel confortable lending them money. But neither do I feel comfortable about locking in a vote to spend our money elsewhere at this stage.

This poll only asks whether we should use E_T's plan or not... if it fails, then there are other options for our gold besides the CGN loan. There will be an official poll over the exact terms and amount to send to CGN, so if you don't want the gold to be used for that then you can vote against it there.

	25-02-2004 03:27									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel I'm not voting until Gunpowder is researched, and we get a better feel for how the war is going. CGN are a bunch of screw-ups. I dont feel confortable lending them money. But neither do I feel comfortable about locking in a vote to spend our money elsewhere at this stage.

This poll proposes to hamstring the Consuls into approving E_T's short-rushes BEFORE we actually know the prospects of the CGN-GWT conflict.

We should wait on ALL short-rushes or other expenditures of money until we have made a decision, as a team, on whether to send the loans to CGN.

Vote no.

	25-02-2004 03:29									#13
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Yes, voting no is best for now. It leaves our options open. We may still go ahead with the short-rushing. But we need time to determine what is the best use for our gold.

	25-02-2004 03:44									#14
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I am open to bribes...

Will the consuls name the next city Enamelville ?




OK .. its a no vote.

	25-02-2004 04:56									#15
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Check ET's plan. It does not spend all of our gold immediatley. It spends only some of it over a period of turns. I think ET put alot of work into this plan and he did so not because we have excess gold to spend but because it makes our economy and production power much more eficient.

If an emergency should happen to arise we can always slow research to allow for a loan of larger magnitudes.

Again, please check ET's plan, it is solid and efficient.

	25-02-2004 05:07									#16
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The other poll about Loaning CGN money:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=108437

	25-02-2004 05:16									#17
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I have to question the efficiency of the plan.

What do we want to spend? 120 gold or 2 Workers? Which is worth more to us now?

	25-02-2004 05:18									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Trip I have to question the efficiency of the plan. What do we want to spend? 120 gold or 2 Workers? Which is worth more to us now?

You're going to have to be a little more specific than that Trip.

There are things that happen throughout the plan that may or may not be linked to another part of it. To single out one aspect of it is hardly fair.

	25-02-2004 05:29									#19
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The reason we are against this plan is that it involves spending over 100g in rushes in the next 2 turns. So the comparison between 120g or 2 workers is perfectly valid since it's pretty much our argument: that gold is right now more valuable to us than 2 extra workers, and is also what most people in the discussion thread (including you BF) supported.

Don't get me wrong, we are all in favor of short-rushing, except we don't want to spend this money now since we are as yet unsure of how the CGN-GWT war will develop. If we spend it in short-rushing we won't be able to loan enough to CGN. If CGN does save their asses, then we can definitely use that money for short-rushing.

That said, considering most people in the discussion thread were against the plan, I'd really like to hear why the sudden change of mind.

-MZ

	25-02-2004 05:37									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen The reason we are against this plan is that it involves spending over 100g in rushes in the next 2 turns. So the comparison between 120g or 2 workers is perfectly valid since it's pretty much our argument: that gold is right now more valuable to us than 2 extra workers, and is also what most people in the discussion thread (including you BF) supported. -MZ

:sigh:

quote: Yep, not worth it to short rush things unless you really save a bunch of shields or need it in an emergency. I think CGN could better use the gold to make sure it's a stalemate over there.

First, you did not mention that my post was before ET carefully laid out his plan.

Second, I said "unless..." which ET satified for me.

Third, am I not allowed to change my mind based upon the arguments presented to me after my initial reaction???

Maybe MZ makes up him mind and will never change it; but BF is flexable and will change his opinion at times when the situation merits it.

Are you done with your attacks MZ?

Why don't you go look up some posts from 6 moths ago and tell everyone where I might have contradicted myself at some point. I'm sure everyone is interested in reading about that.

	25-02-2004 05:58									#21
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Can we please stop griping at each other. It's really not productive.

Let's keep this about policy, shall we?

As for the policy, if people really want to spend over 100 gold for the same thing we can use 2 workers for, the Consuls will live with it. We're against it, however, for that reason. We do not believe that 2 or at most 3 workers in the south are worth over 100 gold right now. Sorry, but we just don't value them that highly.

	25-02-2004 06:16									#22
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My post was directed at the team in general. There are 8 votes in favor of this poll when there was no-one really supporting the plan in the discussion thread since most people considered gold to be of more use to us now. All I asked for is to see the reasons on why the change of mind so we can compare the arguments of the yay crowd and nay crowd.

	25-02-2004 06:53									#23
	Got spare money?

MZ, i have not voted. But when i saw the first post from BigFree, my initial view is to vote yes. There is nothing wrong with E_T shortrushing, many players have done it in their games and shortrushing does help us in getting our infrastructure up faster at mimimal cost. There also isn't a specific reference to when to shortrush, so i believe we would leave it in the good hands of E_T and the Consuls to decide.

Maybe that's the reason so many have voted yes.

But the Consuls now have brought up a lots of other issues. Honestly, I am confused. So it may end up as a absentee or banana vote for me.

P.S. As a less active member in the team, maybe i am not exactly qualified to say this. But there are too many personal attack posts between BigFree and the Consuls recently and that does not help the game. I would suggest some restraint.

	25-02-2004 06:54									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen My post was directed at the team in general.

Yep, uhuh, sure, whatever you say....

That's why you said "(including you BF)"

You were not trying to single me out by naming me specifically. BF must be an acronym I'm just not familiar with. I apologize MZ for thinking you were addressing me most especially. :P

Arnelos: It stops when you and MZ stop. Trip has been smart enough to stay out of this; considering he's up for re-election, not a bad move on his part.

	25-02-2004 07:08									#25
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Arnelos: It stops when you and MZ stop.

I've already stopped, BF.

	25-02-2004 07:23									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos I've already stopped, BF.

Thanks. I appreciate it.

I would rather be posting constructive thoughts on Apolyton policy.

MZ

	25-02-2004 07:49									#27
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Thanks. I appreciate it. I would rather be posting constructive thoughts on Apolyton policy. MZ

and I've posted twice asking for some constructive debate and twice you've responded as if I were attacking you and instead of offering that constructive debate you've attacked back.

I will repeat the Consul's position:

We are against this plan because it invovles spending a significant amount of gold in the next 2 turns, gold that we feel would better used for a loan to CGN so that they may upgrade a number of mustkets. Rest assured that if GWT's attack is suddenly halted and they appear to be "safe" we can use that money for short-rushing. Also, if we end up loaning that cash to CGN, then we can use any excess cash in the future for short-rushing.

I repeat, WE ARE NOT AGAINST SHORT-RUSHING, we think it is a wonderful idea and encourage E_T to plan for considerable short-rushing in the future. But right now our priority is to save CGN's butts before they cave in and if we can use our gold for that purpose, then it is for the better.

Voting yes to this particular poll limits us greatly towards the amount of monetary assistance we can offer CGN. Why not wait to see what will happen BEFORE we commit to the loan, or using it for short-rushing?

-MZ

	25-02-2004 09:35									#28
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My basic question goes unanswered by MZ. Oh well. I do not need it.

I will also not repeat my reasoning nor will I go through ET's plan point by point just to satisfy MZ. I will not explain how both are not mutually exclusive, although MZ clearly thinks they are.

Will CGN even have GP or the resource SP in the next 2 turns? How many Pikes will they have available to upgrade MZ? How much gold do they need by what turn and each following turn in order to get the most Muskets to the front ASAP?

	25-02-2004 10:24									#29
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Will CGN even have GP or the resource SP in the next 2 turns? How many Pikes will they have available to upgrade MZ? How much gold do they need by what turn and each following turn in order to get the most Muskets to the front ASAP?

We don't know any of this yet, which is why it's wise to wait and see if we do have the opportunity to assist with a large loan. If GWT slows down, CGN has Saltpeter hooked up and gets units in place before GWT arrives... then it's in our best interests to loan as much gold as we possibly can to CGN for the purpose of upgrading Muskets. If they can stop GWT cold, then it is greatly to our advantage.

	25-02-2004 12:49									#30
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BUT...

How many Pikes can they have available for upgrade on the next 5 turns. I want to know how many for each of the next 5 turns. IE: How many at 450 AD, how many at 460 AD, and so on. They must be able to forcast troops movements and builds.