27-02-2004 07:33									#181
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quote: Many non-believers are prepared to accept the movie for what it is.

Actually I don't think they are... there is a reason they are non-believers . Most of them are going to see it to see wha the hype is about.

	27-02-2004 07:35									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Actually I don't think they are... there is a reason they are non-believers . Most of them are going to see it to see wha the hype is about.

And then we have people like MrBaggins who seemingly would go to a Terminator flick and complain about the how fictional it is.

	27-02-2004 07:37									#183
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As I said.. I can suspend disbelief watching a fictional movie.

	27-02-2004 07:38									#184
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Then why all the posts about something you consider fictional? I fail to see the difference.

	27-02-2004 07:40									#185
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Its being BILLED as a historical account... and there were some arguments further up in the thread that the resurrection was a factual event.

	27-02-2004 07:42									#186
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins Its being BILLED as a historical account...

It's being BILLED as a religious movie (something you would consider to be a work of fiction).

	27-02-2004 07:47									#187
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Irrelevent.

The synopsis written by Newmarket says

quote: The Passion of The Christ is a film about the last twelve hours of Jesus of Nazareth's life. The film opens in the Garden of Olives (Gethsemane) where Jesus has gone to pray after the Last Supper. Jesus resists Satan's temptations. Betrayed by Judas Iscariot, Jesus is arrested and taken back to within the city walls of Jerusalem where the leaders of the Pharisees confront him with accusations of blasphemy and his results in a condemnations of death.

It says nothing about fictional representation.

	27-02-2004 07:52									#188
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins The synopsis written by Newmarket says

Are we going to get into a semantic arguement over if it is OK for you to assume that a movie about someone who you might not even believe exists using a book you believe to be a fairy tale as a primary source is fictional or not?

	27-02-2004 07:55									#189
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Are we going to get into a semantic arguement over if it is OK for you to assume that a movie about someone who you might not even believe exists using a book you believe to be a fairy tale as a primary source is fictional or not?

I don't know, yet. Too early to tell.

	27-02-2004 07:56									#190
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Ok just checking because that would be annoying.

	27-02-2004 07:59									#191
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Are you going to actually refute what I said... or? just ask more rhetorical questions?

* MrBaggins chuckles and shakes his head

Make a statement, if you are.

	27-02-2004 08:03									#192
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins Are you going to actually refute what I said... or?

Yes. It is OK for you to assume that a movie about someone who you might not even believe exists using a book you believe to be a fairy tale as a primary source is fictional. I hereby give you permission to treat religious movies as fictional.

	27-02-2004 08:06									#193
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I hereby give you permission to treat religious movies as fictional.

*sighs* Which is fine when you're making the film, and write a synopsis saying...

"This is the fictional account of blah blah blah" or "This is my telling/view/opinion of blah blah blah"

However, we're discussing a specific film where that hasn't been done.

	27-02-2004 08:06									#194
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quote: How can one argue with that?

Not arguing, just providing you with some enlightenment. If it makes you happier, it's some professor of theology.

	27-02-2004 08:09									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov A couple of my coworkers saw it, and their reaction was pretty much what I had guessed my assessment will be: If you're not a believer, you're essentially just watching 2 hours of some guy being horribly tortured and put to death. Since I have a low gore tolerance, I think I'll save it for Netflix.

I think this is a normal reaction. I haven't seen the film, but even I admit I am somewhat queasy.

I remember doing the stations of the cross on Good Friday when I was a kid. I was horrified even then about what happened to Jesus.

	27-02-2004 08:13									#196
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins However, we're discussing a specific film where that hasn't been done.

The fact it is using this "Book of Fairy Tales" as a source should be your first clue to start using the dispensation I gave you.

	27-02-2004 08:14									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo If it makes you happier, it's some professor of theology.

Yes. That is slightly better than some dude.

	27-02-2004 08:15									#198
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For any who are not Christian, this film should be view as an example of a Roman crucifixion of noted provincial criminal.

According to Jewish history, the Romans crucified 250,000 Jews. My God the cruelty of the Empire!

	27-02-2004 08:15									#199
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Btw, I still fail to see how suspending disbelief still changes the fact that you are watching 2 hours of some guy being horribly tortured and put to death. If you aren't a believer you simply can't the same reaction as a believer would to the same stuff, no matter how much you suspend your disbelief.

	27-02-2004 08:18									#200
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There was a historical event, where Pilate adjudicated over a revolutionaries death. This is supposedly that account.

A book of fairy tales is one source of the account, but there are many other pieces of anecdotal evidence. The Romans were predigious record keepers about who ruled what province, when.

	27-02-2004 08:19									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Ned For any who are not Christian, this film should be view as an example of a Roman crucifixion of noted provincial criminal. According to Jewish history, the Romans crucified 250,000 Jews. My God the cruelty of the Empire!

Correct.. but a specific named guy, if you read the synopsis.

	27-02-2004 08:22									#202
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins A book of fairy tales is one source of the account, but there are many other pieces of anecdotal evidence.

Show me.

	27-02-2004 08:24									#203
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quote: Record by Cornelius Tacitus... Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with the most exquisite tortures a class hated for their abominations, people called Christians by the populace. Christus [Christ], from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [AD 14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate. But the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also." Annals 15.44.

	27-02-2004 08:24									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Why should we not like it? We didn't have to suspend belief for it. All of it COULD have happened.

Actually scientific breakthroughs in things such as DNA testing, dating technology etc. are tending to confirm oral history or oral traditions about historical events. In some cases to a quite remarkable degree.

So the gospel accounts, though contradictory and embellished over time, probably have a lot of accuracy as to the events, including on specific incidents, what people said etc.

	27-02-2004 08:24									#205
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quote: While I know it's your standard maneuver to try and put your own spin on people's explanations for their beliefs/actions to suit your particular notions

That's funny; I always thought my standard maneuver was to avoid serious discussion whenever possible...

	27-02-2004 08:28									#206
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins Record by Cornelius Tacitus... Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with the most exquisite tortures a class hated for their abominations, people called Christians by the populace. Christus [Christ], from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [AD 14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate. But the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also." Annals 15.44.

This information could have been derived from Christian material circulating in the early 2nd century and still doesn't jive with the fact that no document during the lifetime of Jesus mentions Jesus at all. So try again.

	27-02-2004 08:31									#207
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins Tacitus stuff

Tacitus was writing decades after the supposed events, and he was basing his description on what the Christians claimed, not on any Roman records. The entire point of this passage was just to show how Nero was a bastard (Tacitus had a particularly nasty bee in his bonnet about the emperors, particularly Nero), not to provide any sort of corraboration for the events of the gospels.

There's also considerable historical speculation that the passage isn't Tacitus at all, but a later insertion by some forger. But that isn't gaining too much traction so far as an argument.

	27-02-2004 08:31									#208
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Since Tacticus said that the Christians practiced "pernicious superstition" why would he trust what they said? Also he had access to the full Roman archives. Why would he use a second-hand source?

	27-02-2004 08:33									#209
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins Also he had access to the full Roman archives. Why would he use a second-hand source?

... still doesn't jive with the fact that no document during the lifetime of Jesus mentions Jesus at all.

	27-02-2004 08:36									#210
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins Since Tacticus said that the Christians practiced "pernicious superstition" why would he trust what they said? Also he had access to the full Roman archives. Why would he use a second-hand source?

Why would the Roman archives have records of the crucifixion, anyway? Executing criminals in a backwater province wasn't something that would normally be documented in Rome.