27-02-2004 08:37									#211
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Actually, weren't the Romans really good at documenting things?

	27-02-2004 08:38									#212
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They were predigious record keepers... everything had to be paid and accounted for. What would be the overpowering reason to think that they wouldn't record it?

	27-02-2004 08:39									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Actually, weren't the Romans really good at documenting things?

For the time, yes, but not to the point that there would be records archived in Rome detailing the executions of criminals, which was an incredibly common thing. Any records would have been maintained in Judea, and if they existed, probably lost in the revolt of 69-70 AD, when the city was destroyed.

	27-02-2004 08:40									#214
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc ... still doesn't jive with the fact that no document during the lifetime of Jesus mentions Jesus at all.

No surviving document. Lots of documents have been lost in 2000 years.

	27-02-2004 08:43									#215
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins They were predigious record keepers... everything had to be paid and accounted for. What would be the overpowering reason to think that they wouldn't record it?

We have plenty of records from Rome, none of them deal with executions of criminals in the provinces. What evidence do you have that such a record would be in the Roman archives, when none of the surviving records we have are of that sort?

I think you're also overestimating Roman record keeping. They were prodigious for their time, but nowhere near the level of any post-industrial society. They weren't the Nazis quite.

	27-02-2004 08:43									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov For the time, yes, but not to the point that there would be records archived in Rome detailing the executions of criminals, which was an incredibly common thing. Any records would have been maintained in Judea, and if they existed, probably lost in the revolt of 69-70 AD, when the city was destroyed.

We don't actually know whether they did or didn't report excutions/per date to Rome... or report significant executions, such as the killing of a revolutionary.

Certainly much documentation was archived and transported to Rome, so that the Emporer could keep track of the provinces, to ensure that he wasn't being swindled.

	27-02-2004 08:44									#217
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov We have plenty of records from Rome, none of them deal with executions of criminals in the provinces. What evidence do you have that such a record would be in the Roman archives, when none of the surviving records we have are of that sort?

Plenty. But not all. That would be the only proof.

	27-02-2004 08:44									#218
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The question that always bugged me was this: Was Jesus treated differently from other political criminals? Were they too lashed and beaten all the way to the spot where they were crucified?

	27-02-2004 08:45									#219
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Wierd. Two atheists debating the existance of Jesus.

	27-02-2004 08:46									#220
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins Certainly much documentation was archived and transported to Rome, so that the Emporer could keep track of the provinces, to ensure that he wasn't being swindled.

What does detailing executions of common criminals have to do with swindling? Sorry, but there aren't any precedents here for your position. The Romans executed a LOT of people, and they simply didn't catalogue them all. To really keep track of all the people they were killing would have required feats of bureaucracy well beyond logical means.

	27-02-2004 08:46									#221
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins Plenty. But not all. That would be the only proof.

So in other words, you concede there's no evidence to support your assertions?

	27-02-2004 08:47									#222
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Wierd. Two atheists debating the existance of Jesus.

Its ultimately impossible to have a definitive debate, since too much time has passed.

	27-02-2004 08:47									#223
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Wierd. Two atheists debating the existance of Jesus.

I'm not debating his existence, I'm debating the basis for Tacitus's reference to his existence.

	27-02-2004 08:48									#224
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov So in other words, you concede there's no evidence to support your assertions?

The absence of evidence isn't proof to the contrary. Particularly when you know a situation is incomplete.

	27-02-2004 08:50									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Actually, weren't the Romans really good at documenting things?

Yes they were. But Jerusalem, where the records would have been kept, was destroyed a few years after the events.

I refer you to my earlier post - science is tending to confirm the accuracy of oral traditions. In some cases, stories once thought of as myth are being found to based accurately on historical events. Certainly more than historians ever gave credit going off the written record.

The most famous example was actually a century ago when Homer's Troy was found by a German archeologist. Hitherto Homer's stories had been considered myth and not been thought to be based on historical events.

	27-02-2004 08:50									#226
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins The absence of evidence isn't proof to the contrary. Particularly when you know a situation is incomplete.

You do realize you're making these statements after the previous discussion of empirical evidence, don't you?

There's no reason to think Tacitus based his account on anything other than what was by then the well-known beliefs of the Christian sect. He's not mentioning them to give their history or the history of their beliefs, he's mentioning them because he wanted one more example of why Nero was a *****.

	27-02-2004 08:54									#227
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I'd agree with that... as a possible scenario... but not the only possible scenario.

	27-02-2004 08:55									#228
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov You do realize you're making these statements after the previous discussion of empirical evidence, don't you?

And also after discussing Quantuum Field Theory, particularly with regard to perceptive uncertainty.

	27-02-2004 09:00									#229
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins I'd agree with that... as a possible scenario... but not the only possible scenario.

Possible and most probable. What sense would it make for Tacitus to root through the Roman archives to find a document about the execution of a Judean criminal in order to write a single sentence that is tangental to the point at hand, and the information contained therein was commonly known around Rome at the time? He certainly didn't go to such extremes for everything he wrote.

Another problem is that in this passage, Tacitus states Pilate's title wrongly. He wasn't called "Procurator," he was called Prafectus. If he was using an official document, why'd he get the title wrong?

	27-02-2004 09:07									#230
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Possible and most probable. What sense would it make for Tacitus to root through the Roman archives to find a document about the execution of a Judean criminal in order to write a single sentence that is tangental to the point at hand, and the information contained therein was commonly known around Rome at the time? He certainly didn't go to such extremes for everything he wrote.

Common knowledge is a good point. We don't know what verbal sources Tacitus used, either...

or what diary Pilate or other officials might have kept.

	27-02-2004 09:12									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Another problem is that in this passage, Tacitus states Pilate's title wrongly. He wasn't called "Procurator," he was called Prafectus. If he was using an official document, why'd he get the title wrong?

Pontius Pilate was procurator from 26-36 CE

	27-02-2004 09:25									#232
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins Pontius Pilate was procurator from 26-36 CE

No, he wasn't, he was a Prefect. The title "Procurator" for a Roman governor did not come into use until the reign of Claudius (41-54 A.D.). Using "Procurator" to descrive Pilate is a blatant anachronism.

	27-02-2004 09:50									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov No, he wasn't, he was a Prefect. The title "Procurator" for a Roman governor did not come into use until the reign of Claudius (41-54 A.D.). Using "Procurator" to descrive Pilate is a blatant anachronism.

Yep.. you're right... based on that block of limestone.

Interesting... since it casts doubt on the entire passage.

	27-02-2004 09:53									#234
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quote: I refer you to my earlier post - science is tending to confirm the accuracy of oral traditions. In some cases, stories once thought of as myth are being found to based accurately on historical events. Certainly more than historians ever gave credit going off the written record. The most famous example was actually a century ago when Homer's Troy was found by a German archeologist. Hitherto Homer's stories had been considered myth and not been thought to be based on historical events.

Finding a mythical city is a far different thing that a guy dying and rising from the dead, isn't it?

	27-02-2004 09:53									#235
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins Interesting... since it casts doubt on the entire passage.

Indeed!

This is one of the reasons some scholars think the passage is forged, as they can't imagine Tacitus making such a mistake. I don't know about that, however, since Tacitus makes plenty of his own mistakes, and even offers outright falsehoods on occasion. Nobody's perfect.

	27-02-2004 09:55									#236
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Finding a mythical city is a far different thing that a guy dying and rising from the dead, isn't it?

And finding the remains of Troy doesn't lend credence to Zeus, Ares, Aphrodite and crew really being involved in that hanky-panky, does it?

	27-02-2004 09:56									#237
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A few possibilities... Forged, typo, assumption, wrong word of mouth, or being based on an incorrect written account from someone else... perhaps the early Christian writings.

	27-02-2004 10:09									#238
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You also have to take into account the expense and scarcity of paper, and the relative dearth of people able to write. Then again there is the fragility of ancient paper. The ancients didn;t know enough to impregante their paper with toxic chemicals so that the paper wouldn't break down for thousands of years. Stupid Ancients!

When was Tacitus wring his accounts? If it was after Claudius' time maybe he simply unintentionally used the title more common for his era. Once the title was written correcting it would have been very expensive.

	27-02-2004 10:12									#239
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Finding a mythical city is a far different thing that a guy dying and rising from the dead, isn't it?

Agreed. Any more than historians or science will ever prove that Mohammad was handed the Koran already in written form by an angel sent down from heaven riding a horse

	27-02-2004 10:18									#240
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So the Romans believed that the resurrection was some sort of "pernicious superstition", but the belief that the thug who murdered the last thug who sat on the throne subsequently became a God was peachy OK fact? Someone tyell me which group survived the longest?