01-03-2004 02:12									#1
	Should we abandon "Hello Leute!" this turn? Increase the size of your Attachments

It is possible for GCA to capture "Hello Leute!" on their turn following ours if we do not disband it this turn.

"Enjoy your War Weariness" does not share the same fate.

I would not have started this poll if if were not a decision that needs to be made now.

	01-03-2004 02:17									#2
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According to the recent amendment which just passed, this poll is invalid.

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...threadid=109245

	01-03-2004 02:22									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Trip According to the recent amendment which just passed, this poll is invalid. http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...threadid=109245

No, that poll was invalid since it was started by a Consul!

The Constitution is very clear on that.

Besides, what did MZ mean exactly when he said "(This is a meta-poll )"

	01-03-2004 02:28									#4
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Like this amendment, BF?

	01-03-2004 02:53									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

poll invalid

care to start a discussion thread FIRST? Other than that, this is merely an OPINION poll, and doesn't necessarily have to come into effect.

	01-03-2004 02:54									#6
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As an official poll, this poll is indeed invalid. However, it could serve as an opinion poll.

I fear, however, that given how fast events have moved on this subject that it will not be a terribly enlightening opinion poll without a discussion thread (the reason one is required).

Oh well. We await the ruling of Mongoose.

	01-03-2004 02:55									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Is there any benefit whatsoever to keeping either of them at this point?

It's obvious now that GWT is not going to attack us, GCA is. Why wait......

	01-03-2004 02:56									#8
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I agree with Wervdon. Whether this poll is valid or not, or whether the amendment is valid or not, this is my opinion.

	01-03-2004 02:57									#9
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GWT will be building a road through what is currently our territory. While we hold the city GWT can't use the roads and will de delayed by at least 1 tile if we hold the cities this turn.

	01-03-2004 03:04									#10
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for the record, we have every intention of disbanding them NEXT turn, but we felt it was best if we kept them this turn.

	01-03-2004 03:13									#11
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Ok, apparently we have the ruling from Mongoose and it is in our favor. Personally, I'm leaning toward an abandonment of the cities, just in case, but if keeping the cities delays GWT's road project by a turn, might be worth the small risk.

It all depends on what GCA may have lurking behind that GWT city and whether GWT would gift GCA the city to take us out this turn.

	01-03-2004 03:43									#12
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Stop screwing around with GCA....just disband it, and get peace.

	01-03-2004 03:57									#13
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abandon them now.

This game is more than a personal grudgematch.

	01-03-2004 04:10									#14
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umm.. this is NOT because of a personal grudgematch, the reason for keeping the cities is purely military. Like I mentioned we had every intention of disbanding them next turn plus, mongoose's ruling appears to be FAVORABLE to us so it's not like we're not getting peace anyway

	01-03-2004 04:27									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen umm.. this is NOT because of a personal grudgematch, the reason for keeping the cities is purely military. Like I mentioned we had every intention of disbanding them next turn plus, mongoose's ruling appears to be FAVORABLE to us so it's not like we're not getting peace anyway

You need to take a step back.

You are now using the moderator to force a peace that by his own rules, is not required. You are only able to do this, force this peace if it comes, purely because the moderator is no longer a neutral party. This whole garbage was unneccessary, we could have disbanded the cities immediately and there would have been no ruling required. However, the consuls saw fit to hold the cities a turn. the cities do hold some limited military value, this is true. But you guys have been aching to have mongoose put the hammer to GCA for the past 20 turns. And now he is doing so for illegitimate reasons. Before the holding of the cities, it would have been the correct ruling, but maintaiining those cities changes everything. There is a present capacity for GCA to go to war with Apolyton, thus satisfying one of mongoose's requirements for an ongoing war.

While GCA/GWT have gone to great lengths to destroy this game's credibility, Apolyton has done her fair share by manipulating both the game and the moderator to do her bidding.

	01-03-2004 04:38									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Trip GWT will be building a road through what is currently our territory. While we hold the city GWT can't use the roads and will de delayed by at least 1 tile if we hold the cities this turn.

Does GWT have enough workers in the tile for a one turn road? If so, then...

they build the road and all their reinforcements can get out of the way of GCA.

They give Hi Guys to GCA. GCA DoWs on GWT and captures the workers. GCA uses a second horse to capture our city.

GCA sends peace accepted with both cities to GWT.

GWT accepts peace and the cities.

GWT then DoWs on GCA and recaptures their workers. The road is now clear for GWTs military use. They move their workers along and peace returns.

Why screw around?

	01-03-2004 04:42									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Trip According to the recent amendment which just passed, this poll is invalid. http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...threadid=109245

Whether this poll is invalid as a law or not is not too big a deal. Whether a constitutional amendment launched by a Consul is valid or not is not too relevant either (although it is a damn good question).

What is relevant is if the Consuls ignore the team, we get burned, then whether or not the CoC(s) is(are) valid or not.

	01-03-2004 04:47									#18
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel You need to take a step back. You are now using the moderator to force a peace that by his own rules, is not required. You are only able to do this, force this peace if it comes, purely because the moderator is no longer a neutral party. This whole garbage was unneccessary, we could have disbanded the cities immediately and there would have been no ruling required. However, the consuls saw fit to hold the cities a turn. the cities do hold some limited military value, this is true. But you guys have been aching to have mongoose put the hammer to GCA for the past 20 turns. And now he is doing so for illegitimate reasons. Before the holding of the cities, it would have been the correct ruling, but maintaiining those cities changes everything. There is a present capacity for GCA to go to war with Apolyton, thus satisfying one of mongoose's requirements for an ongoing war. While GCA/GWT have gone to great lengths to destroy this game's credibility, Apolyton has done her fair share by manipulating both the game and the moderator to do her bidding.

It is not an ILLEGITIMATE reason. Technically combat between us and GCA can still exist due to the presence of GCA's galley in the lake and our galley which are just one turn from sinking it. If Lucky's argument is that the "possibility" of conflict eliminates any ruling on peace, then that GCA galley pretty much presents a perpetual possibility. Now with regards to this turn:

- We cannot attack GCA's galley.
- GCA cannot attack our two CGN cities.

Thus, there exists no combat possibilities for this turn by which mongoose's original ruling still holds water and is quite valid if you ask me which is the reason why mongoose still ruled in favor.

But anyway, this whole argument is moot. Given how most people feel on this issue I think the best idea then is to replay and disband those cities.

-MZ

	01-03-2004 05:18									#19
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I don't think there is any argument that really justifies GCA being forced to make peace with us while we have cities on their continent regardless of the # of turns we were screwed with WW in the past. If we want peace (and we do) and we don't want to come off looking like jerks manipulating the game administrator to our advantage (and I hope we dont) then we need to abandon those cities ASAP.

	01-03-2004 05:24									#20
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I'll also say that once we get peace, I think we might be well served to step back and re-evaluate our foreign policy (the policy not the policy makers).

It's looking (to me) like CGN is going to lose this war and lose harshly, and it also looks like there isn't a whole heck of a lot we can do about it. Do we want to go hard line perpetual war with GWT/GCA (hopefully with CFC as our ally) for the rest of the game? It's probally inevitable, but we might be best served stepping back and putting it off.

	01-03-2004 05:31									#21
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For the record.

I believe "Enjoy your WW" cannot be attacked by anyone this turn ??
I have no problems on holding it for another turn.

But given the possibility (even though it is remote) that "Hello Leute!" could be taken this turn, then it should be abandoned.

If GCA wants to take "Enjoy your WW" and restart the war... then thats fine.
We get the happy bonus, which should offset our war weariness.
And we get another shot at killing that galley in the lake.

And we can easily wait out the 5 turns for peace again.
-Or work to an agreement to ban WW abuse for the rest of the game.

	01-03-2004 05:47									#22
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Disband it. It's not worth the risk of GCA taking it.

	01-03-2004 06:16									#23
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Whether this poll is invalid as a law or not is not too big a deal. Whether a constitutional amendment launched by a Consul is valid or not is not too relevant either (although it is a damn good question). What is relevant is if the Consuls ignore the team, we get burned, then whether or not the CoC(s) is(are) valid or not.

See, this was my point when I said that even if the poll is invalid (it is), it is still an opinon poll.

I don't believe that any of the Consuls have any intention of ignoring the result.

EDIT: MZ has just replayed the turn abandoning Hallo Leute and sent the turn to CFC.

	01-03-2004 06:40									#24
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for the record I abandonded BOTH cities, just so GCA doesn't have a single excuse not to send peace.

	01-03-2004 06:44									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen for the record I abandonded BOTH cities, just so GCA doesn't have a single excuse not to send peace.

Yay!

	01-03-2004 07:48									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen for the record I abandonded BOTH cities, just so GCA doesn't have a single excuse not to send peace.

yes.

In football, when there is a loose ball in your penalty box, you will just kick it away as far as you can. You won't want to mess around by dribbing out of the box.

	01-03-2004 08:36									#27
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quote: Originally posted by rush yes. In football, when there is a loose ball in your penalty box, you will just kick it away as far as you can. You won't want to mess around by dribbing out of the box.

Soccer is a tough game!
Kicking someone in the nuts should be illegal.

	01-03-2004 08:41									#28
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btw, I am proud to say I was the only person to vote NO

	01-03-2004 11:53									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen btw, I am proud to say I was the only person to vote NO

It was most likely out of spite because of whom posted this poll that you voted that way. Otherwise you are just a bad Civ player if you think giving GCA a chance to capture/raze a city in our possesion is acceptable. And I know you are not a bad Civ player so....

If I said the sky was blue you'd likely want to argue that with me as well. Your skills as a leader are sorely lacking. I only wish that I had time to run against you when your term comes up. I don't think you'll run the team into the ground or anything like that, but you sure could do a lot better.

	01-03-2004 12:14									#30
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I already stated the reasons why I was in favor of keeping the cities for another turn, if that is not sufficient for you (and it never is) that is frankly, not my problem.