05-03-2004 22:45									#31
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette If someone is unhappy with the siting of Carthage, please load the game at 4000BC and explain to me what was to be done. (until then I don't feel guilty at all )

not sure how others feel, but (opens up hutfinder and finds a 4 special site 1 space east of the starting settler's location), um, how about 1 space east of the starting location??? granted, 2 of those would have been fish, and the other 2 seem to have been hidden (at least 1 silk), but would make sence to me to be a good starting spot

	06-03-2004 04:18									#32
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Cheater!

	06-03-2004 04:49									#33
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But would you say "cheater" if hutfinder was available for a Mac??

Monk

	06-03-2004 04:49									#34
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The truth is shining: many people play with hutfinder, and when hutfinder tells them "here is a nice site", they settle there.
I play without (even if the author is Stu and Stu is my friend).
I have settled after 3 turns on a coastal site with 5 ocean including one whale, 12 grassland, 4 of them shielded, 3 plains and one jungle. I would never call that a poor site.

	06-03-2004 05:10									#35
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You are absolutely correct, LF; it is not a poor site. But that is not the question you posed. The response was in order, showing what COULD have been done.

When I was at University, before the days of pocket calculators, I thought the folk who used slip sticks were bending the rules, but alas, they were allowed.

Hutfinder, like the sliderule, is an effective tool.

All that is noise, though. The site will do nicely and the game will be fun. And all is well.

Monk

	06-03-2004 10:54									#36
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well put, monk and la fayette did choose an effective site, just not the one i might have (and the point is merely academic as we are playing from his start, not one i might have chosen ) i have no problem with a city with a whale, silk and lots of grass and ocean

	06-03-2004 13:50									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk When I was at University, before the days of pocket calculators, I thought the folk who used slip sticks were bending the rules, but alas, they were allowed.

Most experienced players make use of hutfinder and other helper programs (I remember a post by Elephant where he listed at least 10 programs that he had in use in any game he played).

It is not at all my opinion that those players are bending the rules. I very much admire people like solo or Zenon who make such good use of those programs that they get results I couldn't dream to achieve.

But I have chosen, once and for all, to play the game mostly as it comes and sometimes with self-chosen limits, such as 'no city bribe'. This is a personal choice and I know perfectly well that it forbids me to win some kinds of contests.

I couldn't care less: this is a game after all, and my one and only objective is to have fun
(but I say 'no' to making a trip to The Institute if a helper program says I could have played otherwise ).

	06-03-2004 14:01									#38
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Monk,

May I mention this phrase from Lao Tseu:

" Quand l'homme sage montre la lune, l'imbécile regarde le doigt " ?

	06-03-2004 17:41									#39
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Just for the record - I was on my laptop sans HutFinder when I played my turns and made the comment - and for that matter spent many Settler turns mining a grassland square - just because I believed the site was worth the effort.
HutFinder is certainly of use, but like many here I find that its use in every day games can be both boring and counter productive.

Stu

	06-03-2004 21:20									#40
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette Monk, May I mention this phrase from Lao Tseu: " Quand l'homme sage montre la lune, l'imbécile regarde le doigt " ?

Yes, my Friend, you may mention it. I would have preferred an accompanying translation, though, as I am an ugly American with very limited language abilities. Unlike Master Lao who apparently was also proficient in French; it is French is it not??

I can guess it compares a wise man to an idiot in the context of the moon?? But, maybe you will be so kind as to set me straight ... please.

Monk

	06-03-2004 21:42									#41
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette Most experienced players make use of hutfinder and other helper programs ... But I have chosen, once and for all, to play the game mostly as it comes and sometimes with self-chosen limits, such as 'no city bribe'. This is a personal choice ....

We who have played with you have long known this, and I have long admired this quality in you. Some folk must have their whisky with water, or soda, or ice; you prefer it straight up. Who can object to that??

Except in the very begining of the game, for this very objective, I do not use hutfinder extensively either. It is useful to verify my results in the area of finding "hidden special" tiles though.

Sometimes, I have quickly laid down the first city on the "one off tile" where two specials are visible, in the hope of getting a second city on the other two, and thus, getting a quick start toward Monarchy. Having the SSC further down the list makes it easier to get multiple tech discoveries later in the game, I think.

Monk

	07-03-2004 01:13									#42
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette " Quand l'homme sage montre la lune, l'imbécile regarde le doigt " ?

" When the wise man points at the moon, the idiot looks at the finger "

(if the moon were 'better gameplay', the finger might be 'helper program' )

Lao Tseu was in fact Chinese AFAIK, but my knowledge of the Chinese language is not proficient enough to post the original.

	07-03-2004 01:37									#43
	Got spare money?

Chinese he was and I am grateful you used FR over Chinese.

Mandarin is not easy for me. Thanks for the translation.

If I have locked in on the right Chinese fellow, the english is Lao-tse or Lao-tzu. Founder of Taoism, 604-531bc.

Monk

	07-03-2004 03:02									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk If I have locked in on the right Chinese fellow, the english is Lao-tse or Lao-tzu. Founder of Taoism, 604-531bc.

Exactly

... and you seem to have been able to borrow his long beard. Congratulations.

(I guess you don't need that much of his wisdom, since you have accumulated so much by means of civ2)

	08-03-2004 18:20									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk But would you say "cheater" if hutfinder was available for a Mac?? Monk

I would use only in MP games, and only when competing against others who use it.

	09-03-2004 00:25									#46
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette (I remember a post by Elephant where he listed at least 10 programs that he had in use in any game he played).

My list was of only 3 "utility programs" (CIV2PLAN, HutFinder, and MapEditor), but I also mentioned several useful "pages" I kept in NotePad windows, such as a Terrain Transform chart, Samson's City Supply/Demand criteria and Bonus Payment formulas, Solo's City Wildcard patterns, the Oedo list, etc. I am often playing in short spurts, so they function more as "memory aides" to speed a decision.

	09-03-2004 00:47									#47
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I see that no one has picked up the mantle, so I have downloaded and will assay to play 20 turns tonight (should complete the "BC" portion of the game).

	09-03-2004 15:30									#48
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Played:

La Fayette
Grigor
SG[1]
Old n Slow
-Jrabbit at bat

All welcome - come on down

Stu

	09-03-2004 18:21									#49
	Completing the B.C. years... Increase the size of your Attachments

Well, it's 1 A.D. and we've yet to meet another civ.

Biggest accomplishments were establishment of 2 colonies on new continents and the building of the Lighthouse.

Herewith the zipfile, with turnlog to come...

Attachment: th_01ad.zip
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	09-03-2004 19:26									#50
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In 500 BC, a new monarch is installed. Dean Rabbit surveys the kingdom, noting 390K ppl across 8 cities, with 114 GP in the treasury. Standard sttings of 30/70 net 10 GP/turn and a new tech every 8 turns. Seven cities are breeding camels, while the capital is just finishing a huge statue sporting the unmistakeable visage of Dean Old n Slow.

We are about to discover Literacy, which would yield access to Philosophy and The Republic. Other possibilities:
--Astronomy (Cope's), which requires Masonry and Math first.
--Navigation (Magellan's), with the same requirements, plus Seafaring.
--The Wheel or Polytheism, for a better fighting force.

The Rabbit Dean sees little else to do but hit ENTER...

500bc -- We complete the Colossus of Carthage.
475bc -- We learn Literacy, choose Philosophy over Masonry, Polytheism, Seafaring, and The Wheel.
450bc -- Barbs land 3 archers at Carthage. A royal horsie is dispatched and kills them all.
425bc -- Germans complete the Pyramids at Hamburg, move cap to Berlin, continue working on Great Wall.
400bc -- Camels begin converging...
375bc -- We now have over half a million ppl, and Toynbee declares us Largest.
350bc -- We complete The Lighthouse of Panormus (location saved 2 turns). Romans --> Oracle.
325bc -- Coal mine finally completed outside Malaca. first trireme launched, eastbound.
300bc -- We discover Philosophy, but no Golden Age. Rabbit belatedly consults history books, sees that OnS noted Germans had it 500 years ago! Masonry next...
275bc -- Land ho!
250bc -- Germans change to Marco Polo's Embassy. (Don't those evil heathens know MPE is strictly taboo??)
225bc -- 2nd trireme launced, westbound.
200bc -- Sioux move cap to Little big Horn. Cartenna grows, blows up. We start a temple or two...
175bc -- Romans switch to GW. We grow to 600K. Landlocked city of Gades founded.
150bc -- Masonry completed. Math not offered. We pick Seafaring over construction. Landfall east.
125bc -- Our 10th city, Rusucurru, is founded on a nearby continent. Demanded goods are Wine, Silver, and... HIDES! accompanying diplomat enters hut (inside city limits) and finds Legion.
100bc -- Romans buy a vowel, move capital to Veii. Malaca completes Temple. Western trireme landfall.
075bc -- New colony of Girba is founded. We do the in-city hut trick again, get another Legion.
050bc -- North and South borders of our ribbon world now confirmed. With 11 cities down, temple construction begins in earnest (Rusicade done). Hides (d), Carthage to Rusucurru, 64 GP. Not bad for delivery to a Size 1 city! another trireme ready.
025bc -- Babylonians complete the Geat Library of Ninevah. Germans establish the evil MPE in Liepzig.
001ad -- Wise men learn secret of Seafaring, begin the study of Math. Panormus temple. We repeat the delivery of Carthage hides to Rusucurru, get another 64GP and accompanying beakers.

Population = 740,000
Treasury = can't remember, but more than I started with...
Reseaarch rate = 9 turns, but 2-continent trading should truncate that considerably.
Taxes currently yield 18/turn, but that will drop as infrastructure grows.

Our best opportunity is represented by the massively repeating Hides commodity (3 or 4 cities IIRC), which should help us rush through the tech tree and gain access to Magellan's and Copernicus. Cope's should come first (based on typical AI behavior).

Temples will become crucial with the next city. The settler seen irrigating in the north is scheduled to drop that (12th) city on the forest just inland, to take advantage of the Unused Silk that I somehow missed.

We're now free to explore, and with three boats on the water and another under construction, that should now begin in earnest.

	09-03-2004 22:33									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits ...We may never establish Embassies - no Marco or UN. ...

May I assume that ai cities with these wonders are to be razed?

	09-03-2004 22:40									#52
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That question occured to me while playing last night.

Fortunately, we have ample time for SG[1] to render a ruling, since we haven't met any aliens yet...

	09-03-2004 22:45									#53
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Yes - we must never possess such evil entities!

	10-03-2004 16:24									#54
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Played:

La Fayette
Grigor
SG[1]
Old n Slow
-Jrabbit

All welcome - come on down

Stu


Rule clarification and extension

We may never build or possess whilst still active Marco's, the UN, or the Wall.

	10-03-2004 18:40									#55
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Still @ 20 turns?

	10-03-2004 19:05									#56
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No - I think 10 turns each now.
Thanks Jr for that.

	11-03-2004 04:47									#57
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Hmmm - looks like I am the first to download JR's SAV, so I'll "call the ball" for tonight. Should be pretty safe, with only 10 turns and no contacts yet; then again, I'm new to MGE Diplomacy issues. No MPE, GW, Dips making direct embassies, peace or ceasefires... piece of cake... (guess that means no accepting AI offers of war alliances or map exchanges - sigh).

	11-03-2004 18:29									#58
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Welcome, Elephant -- and enjoy!

	11-03-2004 19:06									#59
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President: Ponderous Pachyderm...

REVIEW: At AD1-
looks like another, wider RingWorld...
Researching 14th(17th-3starters) tech: Math 9t@37b
11 cities: 1x6, 2x4, 5x3, 3x1
Monarchy: 30Tax/70Sci
got 2 Settlers(?),3 ships, 2 Dips, 5 caravans (1 Food)
only 3 Temples?
got HG, Col, LH (why LH? NP/SP easy reach...)
346g, 21g/t
Gades FBF, Panorm -1, Rusu -2

5 caravans active:
-Cart Hides by Caralis,
-Panormus Hides in Caralis,
-Caralis Beads on ship heading east,
-Rusicade Beads on ship heading west,
-Malaca Food (sleeping) in Carth

LeptParv and Rusu demand Hides, lots of supply (low payoff)

MAJOR unhappiness issues: Carth should be celebrating, most
cities size 3/4, several with 1st citizen red

We have lots of gold: why few Temples?
We have Horse and Philos: why no PT-MT?
We have HG: why no ICS?

ACTION PLAN:
-Make Temples, Hides, settlers & ships
-Boat near each settler pick up and take east/west
-Convoy Hides to Rusu for g&b
Tech Plan:
-finish Math, then PT-Ast-MT

PLAY:
RB Temple LP
20ad(1): 301g,~120b,8t@42b/304b
...Eastern ship picks up Settler (keeps Beads in hope)
...Western ship finds new continent, drops Dip
...RB Temple Utica 76g, Cartenna 70g
...Panorm FBF

Hides Carth
POP>800K
40ad(2): 157g,~165b,7t@45b
...Hides to Rusu: Panorm 40g/b,+1TR; Carten 36g,+1TR
...East ship finds Whale, Barb Chariot (and no Dip!)
...(where there's Barbs, there's usually AI...)
...RB Temple Caralis 70g
...Rusu FBF

(Romans abandon GW)
60ad(3): 132g,~285b,7t
...Hut(417,11): MATHEMATICS!
...RB Temple Carth 64g
...Malaca FBF

(Romans restart GW; Chinese too)
start PT
WLT(Senior Lecturer?)D in Carthage! (temple done...)
POLYTHEISM; start Ast (vs Cst/Med/Rep)
80ad(4): 52g,0b,8t@45b/352b
...Hut(411,11): Legion(Pan)- NOBODY NEARBY!
...Carth Hides to Rusu: 92g/b,still only 1TR
...Build Leptis Magna(417,11)+4F,4-1T,1Sh: start Settler
...Caused 1st unhappy in Carth: Lux 10%

(Roman capital moved to Pompeii...)
Settler Rusu, Hides Rusicade
100ad(5): 105g,147b,7t@55b
...Found a river in eastern continent, drop Beads to explore

Hides Malaca
120ad(6): 90g,202b,7t
...Hut(441,17): 100g (needed a Legion...); drop the Settler

Settler Gades
140ad(7): 148g,257b,7t
...Build Carthago(438,16)+4F,3-1T,2Sh: start Phalanx
...Malaca Hides to Rusu: 32g/b,+0(sigh)
...Rusicade Beads to Rusu: 20g/b,+0

Copper Girba, Hides Cartenna, Panormus
ASTRONOMY; start MT!
160ad(8): 174g,0b,8t@56b/425b

(Germans start GW: popular tourist attraction, or do they suspect?)
180ad(9): 99g,56b,8t

Dye Caralis, Hides Carth
200ad(10): 66g,113b,8t
...Rusicade Hides to Rusu: 40g/b,2nd +0TR

REMARKS at AD200-
-11->13 cities
-still 2 Settlers, but 5 in production now
-4 ships & 2 dips (for the Brits); both west, load for new continent
-7 caravans (mostly Hides) with 8 in production (Girba Copper for Carth)
-153/425 beakers towards MonoTheism
-all cities content, Carthage WLT(SL)ing (size 7 will lose it)
-2 new empty(?) continents (with rivers!) "under development"
-research rate now 8 turns, got Math, PT, Ast & 1/3 MT
STILL NO CONTACT WITH AI!

Successor: Copes or Mikes? infrastructure for Republic? RBing?

And the SAV: th_a200.sav

WARNING: Upload gave it extended filename; concatenate to 8 characters by removing "21954_"!

Last edited by Elephant on 11-03-2004 at 21:08

	11-03-2004 21:35									#60
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Good stuff -- great log! Welcome to the sxn community, Elephant -- these guys stretch MGE to all sorts of shapes!