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debeest
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SG, I like your new log mode for the concise info presented, and at the same time I agree with JRabbit -- what I really like in a log is to see what the person was thinking, why they made the choices they made.
Not that I've been good about that in the couple of logs I submitted in the dirty game....
I'm amused at your mea culpa, because my own inflexible style has been to go to republic (probably too late, usually) and celebrate my cities on and off, growing to their limits and then raising taxes to increase their limits through white goods. Typically a half dozen or a dozen turns celebrating, and then a similar period fundraising. So I spend LOTS of time focused on when to start and stop celebrating -- exactly what you say you hardly ever do!
I love this game!
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-Jrabbit
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of the Electronic Egyptians
Feb 2002
time: 23:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Grigor
OK, it was my fault about the sleeping trireme. Usually I sleep units like wonderVans just outside a city so I can see them (it is also easier to wake them up). |
I hate when people sleep units!!! The don't come up in the play rotation, so whole turnsets can go by without utilizing them. (I've even duplicated sleeping units in my build orders because they were obviously "needed.")
So yes, at the very least, a log note to your successor. from my perspective, better still to leave it active. (It's really not that much trouble to hit the spacebar, imho.)
quote:
I am never sure in what order the slider setting notation is - tax-science-lux? lux-tax-science? could be anything. |
The game itself is the source of the inconsistency. Personally, I use the "percentage" format found in the Tax Rate dropdown. Top to bottom, these read Tax - Science - Luxuries. Thus, the default start condition would be described in my log as 40-60-0.
Unfortunately, the game uses a "tenths" in the little civ status box on the right of the screen (beneath the world map). In that notation, the starting condition is listed as 6.4.0 -- with Tax and Science reversed from their order on the actual slider chart. (Or is it 0.4.6, as suggested by Grigor's post? Sorry, this is IIRC and I may have mucked it up. I rarely ever look at that notation while actually playing!!!)
Personally, I like the "percentage" convention and use it consistently. So when I say I've moved the faders (sliders), it's in the top-down order they appear on screen.
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloody Monk
I'm always in favor of more details in the logs, especially where it elaborates the thinking behind the actions. So much is learned by "seeing" a thing from another's POV. |
That's my problem: I log all the details, but little of the thinking and reactions - the "why". Once I'm done I want to get it up as quickly as possible, otherwise (like a GOTM or ELCG) I'll spend a few days making it look better.
Good debate on logs here. The "soul-less" nature is mis-directed: compressing the details into something like that gets the critical stuff out of the way, so you should be able to spend more time on "what and why". The biggest complaint I have felt (but neglected to express) in taking over a Succession game is not knowing how many beakers are in the box. Everything else I can look up, but I hate loading ST's utility just to get one silly number. Some of us prefer to keep a Spotless Rep; others prefer not to black-click; I prefer not to waste beakers (if possible). An extra caravan delivery when the box is already full is a major decision for me.
I'll take the other comments about "more narrative" to heart...
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Scouse Gits
Monk,
I'm ashamed to admit that this turnset was almost experimental for me - I'm so used to celebrating non-representative governments that I am p*ss poor at getting a weak Republic in hand (I would probably have stayed in Monarchy myself - which would have been a mistake I readily admit). |
Government switch seems like one of the biggies for Succession Games. We all love to add cities, but that has consequences to happiness and amount of improvements needed.
quote:
It will be interesting to see how the next couple of turnsets go - keep science high and struggle with the pennies or go for gold and rush all the much needed white goods. |
TRADE! for both beakers and gold...
quote:
Similarly, I was uncertain as to the best tech path in this virgin territory - I chose to aim for Invention - but was that right? |
I usually delay Invention. It has the dual effects of shutting down techs from huts (depends on your attitude toward that) as well as killing the doubling bonus on caravan delivery payments. Plus once you get it the AI ask for nothing else, and sometimes get testy about it.
Mono & Steam: sounds like a real Early Conquest plan - Crusaders and Ironclads? And is Lighthouse and SunTzu in there somewhere too? My preference had been for Knights: is the +1 worth the lower defense?
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Bloody Monk
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austin, tx
May 2001
time: 23:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Scouse Gits
Monk,
I'm ashamed to admit that this turnset was almost experimental for me - I'm so used to celebrating non-representative governments that I am p*ss poor at getting a weak Republic in hand ***snip*** It will be interesting to see how the next couple of turnsets go - keep science high and struggle with the pennies or go for gold and rush all the much needed white goods. I admit I do not know which is optimal.***snip***
Similarly, I was uncertain as to the best tech path in this virgin territory - But this game is shaping up differently and I begin to wonder if my own game is flawed by my prior experience focussing as it does on fairly early conquest and I am becoming (mayhaps I always was) too inflexible.
Stu |
Sorry to chop your post up so, but I wanted to have a referrence for a few comments.
"Weak Republic", a good term BTW, is a very different animal from "our" usual gameplay. Nothing to be ashamed about. We are all a bit at sea with this problem until we learn/experience a bit. A lot of the "best path" choices that Solo talked about were very counter-intuitive for me; for instance, first build for a new city not warrior but temple. Since Republic "charges" shield support, a new city can't afford units. Temple then Market so it can celebrate and grow, is the ticket. If you lose one to Barbs, move on.
Grigor made a very good summary of the main path choices. The idea is to get the SSC bulked up ASAP. Use deliveries to generate the cash needed for its improvements. In this game, with the lack of contact, trade is going to be a problem. Also, without contact, the usual process of getting Wheel and Engineering from the AI will not work. Consequently, these should have been a higher research priorty, in my opinion. Not having a sewer will hold things up greatly. Your alternative, getting Invention, Democracy, and the SoL, has some appeal--"Get me out of this dang Republic, now!!"  But that path misses a lot of SSC growth.
I think it will be a slog for a while, but, by pushing science over cash and getting Sanitation, the SSC can be celebrated up before going Fundy and then using the resulting cash and free support to build in the necessary improvements to allow gross celebrations when the shift to Democracy comes. Until the move to Fundy, having the other cities grow is not a great idea because of the resulting need for Luxuries to keep everyone happy. A slider point or two on Lux is a waste if the SSC can't grow.
The inflexibility thing is why I got busy, for a time, with Early Landing Games. I kept bugging Solo to write his "guide" so I could see my way through all the trees, the fog, if you will allow, of trying to make a "weak Republic" work. The strategy has moved on now, but I am very glad Solo "forced" me to learn, or at least experience, the "Republic Slog."
This will be tedious for a while, but, the sun will come up tomorrow, eventually. 
Monk
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Scouse Gits
Gardens, Lighthouse, Magellan's & Mike's are my target WoWs - I rarely build Sun Tzu - prefer to rely on strategic barracks - the healing is valuable. Little can stand before a vet Crook (7.5) particularly after the Super Clads have decimated the defending forces... I guess the crux of my strategy is turning Science to zero once I've achieved Mono & Steam... Naturally all of this with a largely celebrating Monarchy. |
Since no one is picking up the game, I'll continue the discussion...
I'm trying something like this in CFC's GOTM38. I did the Mon-Tra-Phi-MT rush, then diverted to Feu and Chi for SunTzu and Knights. Then I cranked down the Sci in favor of RushBuying Taxes. I put HG, LH, COL, MC and SunTzu in my SSC, then started mass producing Triremes, Knights and Dips. SunTzu means I can build the Knights anywhere, even a city I just bribed or took. Any Barracks I would have build would have been back on my home island, unable to heal wounded front-line troops unless I convoyed them back. HG and MC kept the cities content, even the new conquers (I added JSB later). I RushBuilt Settlers when they got too large, otherwise kept them cranking fighters or ships till they were down to 5 free shields each, then switched to Dips or Caravans.
I built Knights rather than Crusaders because of the better defense. I did not have to bring along Legions or RushBuild Phalanx/Pike to defend new conquered cities, or stacks of wounded Crusaders. Rarely did anything stand my Vet Knight onslaught - I think only two Legions have survived out of 50-60 attacks, and they were on bonus defense terrain. I probably should not have waited for the Knights, but I was building Wonders at the time anyway and really wanted SunTzu.
Magellans and Ironclads are much further down the tech path, and you have to go through Nav and Inv to get there. Part of my funding plan was to deliver caravans to keep up the bribery treasury, so I was leery of those techs. I did end up taking Nav later in the game, but Magellans was too late to really help the ships.
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:34
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MT= MonoTheism; Machine Tools=Too (from RULES.TXT)
I'm usually well off the home continent by either Trade or Philosophy. I send out "scouts" (ships&dips), but delayed building the Main Force till SunTzu blessed them with Vet status.
I guess I'm just a novice at executing the mass continent attack. I'm getting a fair amount of counter-attacks, which Vet Knights are for the most part withstanding. Need to work on making sure I have enough force to finish things I start...
Any suggestions on doing this in a Republic?
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:34
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On a different bent, the "Free For All" system breaks down if there are not more than 6-8 players, due to the "Last Four Out" rule. What if you modified it so that after 1 day, it becomes "Last Three Out", after 2 days "Last Two Out"?
This particular game may be daunting some potential players due to its map size. Consider a Medium or Small for the next FFA game.
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debeest
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I second Elephant's suggestions. In the first free-for-all we eased the restriction and I thought it worked well. And I agree about the map size. Each turn often takes longer on a big map, and certainly it takes longer to hunt down all those distant civs. I could probably join in a bit more if the maps were smaller.
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debeest
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I'd like to take a turnset this weekend, but if someone else wants to go first and can finish by Saturday afternoon, jump in.
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debeest
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Us Against Them Free-for-All, 600 - 780 AD
There’s a new Pro Vice Chancellor in town!
Let’s see: republic, 21 cities, 26 techs, researching engineering. Even more of a ribbon world than the Dirty Game! Thus far, we’ve found only the Babylonians -- I guess we’ve had no difficulty maintaining our spotless rep. Supreme, already built most of the important early Wonders. Looks as if the Pro Vice Chancellors of olde have this world well in hand, even if they did miss out on MPE – oh, right, that’s all part of the plan….
I experiment with the trade allocations, currently at 10-80-10. The 10% devoted to luxuries, which is entirely wasted outside Carthage, is roughly balanced by the effect in Carthage alone. Not a lot of cities would gain by WLT(PVC)D, so I keep it at 10%, even though it feels wrong. Pro Vice Chancellor Stuart has left the republic very much the way I would hope to leave it to my successor, with practically nothing to change.
600 AD -- By my calculations, the gems caravan from Cartenna to Rusicade would only get us about 60g, so I turn it around to feed into a Wonder.
Boat turns around to pick up a captain from Caralis.
Settler finishes planting mulberry bushes for silkworms near Cartenna and begins irrigating near Carthage.
There are dramatically fewer active units in this game than I am used to. Not much to do. Turns will go fast for awhile. We’re in the medieval plodding phase of the game.
620 AD -- No news.
640 AD -- We learn engineering. We’re given a choice between banking, invention, sanitation, theory of gravity, or warrior code. I ponder gravity for Isaac, but that’s a dead end tech for now, and we have little cash and few caravans for Wonder-building, so I opt for invention, which leads to guns and steamboats and Leo’s.
Feh. A caravan organizes in Leptis Parva with no boat to take it anywhere useful.
I find some land far to the west.
Um. Carthage is size 12 already. Suddenly I wonder if I should have studied sanitation. Well, until we finish the harbor, the city is going hungry, so I guess there’ll be time.
660 AD -- Village at 398, 224 (south of Western Station) yields three barb horsemen. Sigh. So much for the value of having gone back to pick up a captain.
680 AD -- Barb horsemen kill warrior.
Carthage finishes harbor, sets to work on university.
700 AD -- Population reaches 3 million.
Belatedly, I realize what I think we need here. We’re in republic, but we’re not celbrating. We need more cities! More blackfaces! Easier WLT(PVC)D celebrations! Let’s see if we can do something about that.
Also, we’re forging ahead in science faster than we can use it. With the SSC, we get much more production with a high science setting than with a high tax setting, but what we really need right now is cash. Have to consider resetting the sliders.
Trireme, healed in Treveste, loads up a captain and goes exploring to the south.
720 AD -- Learn invention (need 1040 for next tech). Out of banking, chemistry and physics, I choose physics.
Village at 469,9 (north of Babylonian Ellipi) yields 100g.
740 AD -- Rushbuy university in Carthage.
Now that some amenities have been built, I shift the sliders to 20/20/60. 10 of 21 cities will celebrate and grow.
760 AD -- Village at 325,19 (far western island) yields 50g
780 AD Village at 481,11 northeast of Ellipi yields 50g.
Frustratingly, I leave the republic largely as I found it. 7 of 21 cities are celebrating and growing -- my worthy successor will probably want to change the 20/20/60 settings after the next building period, or maybe even this turn. No new cities, two new techs. Modest exploration, disappointing villages. We have too few caravans, too few settlers, too few boats, and too few exploring units, and we need lots of improvements in order to take advantage of republic growth. We seem to be way out in front of the AI, but stuck in the doldrums. I don’t know that I could have done things a whole lot better -- I feel as if I didn’t really have many choices to make. Hopefully the little population growth spurt will help kickstart things.
The caravan west of Caralis was headed toward Carthage to build Wonders, but I think it can generate about 116g in Cartenna if silver is still demanded at that point.
Best of luck to the incoming headmaster.
 Attachment: th_a780.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).
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Bloody Monk
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austin, tx
May 2001
time: 23:34
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Good turns, debeest, though I think Sanitation would have been my choice. Time will tell if other Civs could get Leo.
Why not use this relatively expensive time of celebrating Republic to churn out some settlers?? After they do some irrigation locally, the city can grow back that pop point, maybe more.
Also, did you check what the effect this WL_D growth will have on attitude levels when the slider is backed off. For example, maybe a Market would be better in Cartenna than the Aquaduct it is building, or even a settler. For, without the SSC being able to celebrate, Lux settings are a drain.
BTW, that's two more hints for your question about "how" in the "fun game." Sequencing is a big consideration I think.
Loved your log. "Planting mulberry trees", getting a captain for a ship; very nice touches.
Monk 
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Grigor
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Oberlin, Ohio
Jan 2000
time: 00:34
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Great to see the game forging ahead, debeest. It is certainly interesting to see otherwise accomplished civ warriors struggling with early republic. 
But there are some questions from the star chamber at the Institute (and by the way, where is the Institute?)
quote:
640 AD -- We learn engineering. We’re given a choice between banking, invention, sanitation, theory of gravity, or warrior code. I ponder gravity for Isaac, but that’s a dead end tech for now, and we have little cash and few caravans for Wonder-building, so I opt for invention, which leads to guns and steamboats and Leo’s. |
Invention???? 
A plan mentioned above : Sanitation, Sewer, Shakespeare, grow Carthage. That was definitely possible in your turnset. You built a University in Carthage, which could have been a sewer. There are also IIRC 4 or 5 caravans in Carthage now, and with judicious partial rushbuying there is no reason to assume that the sixth 'van could not have been rushed at least in time for your successor's institutional growth spurt. This would not be cause for toothbrush detail if there had not already been mention of this strategy in the threads. 
Although this is probably your predecessor's decision, I am surprised to see the Eastern trireme still sporting its caravan captain with the Babylonians still unexplored. We cannot find AI city demand for big trade bonuses without finding their cities. And without MPE or embassies or peace treaties, maps are going to be hard to come by. The information gained by a wandering caravan should be valuable, even if the Babs eventually whack it before it can deliver itself.
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17-03-2004 00:36
can't believe you mean Machine Tools!???
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