19-03-2004 15:24									#301
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What about adding...

Block (passing). If a player blocks in a square while another player tries to pass, the pass fails, and the blocker can deflect the ball to a person on the same team within 2 squares.

eg.

Doc has the ball. alva is in the same square with Doc and Hueij is in a square next to Doc.

Doc passes Skanky
alva blocks to Hueij

With these orders the ball gets deflected to Hueij

If the target receiver runs out of the range, the ball becomes loose.

	19-03-2004 15:53									#302
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This isn't like quarterback rushing though. When you block a pass in football then you either have to be extremely skilful or extremely lucky to actually win the ball back afterwards. It usually just flies off in a random direction.

	19-03-2004 17:42									#303
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I have to say I'm a great fan of complex rule systems, but not when I'm the GM

-Jam

	19-03-2004 17:56									#304
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Come on, it's no more complex than Gladiator. Besides, real footballers have an idea of who will beat who to the ball, and we'd learn pretty quickly how good the other players were in which situations.
You'd only need a list of the stats, which wouldn't change throughout the match, and there wouldn't be more than two "calculations" per turn. Well, unless all the players bunched together, and six people all went for the same tackle. Then it'd be silly.

	19-03-2004 18:01									#305
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How do you suggest these stats work again?

I'm not too clear on your system.

-Jam

	19-03-2004 18:31									#306
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I explained it on the last post of the previous page!

Right then, another go:

A = Attacker, D = Defender.
Sk = Skill, St = Strength, Pa = Pace (notice I haven't used Speed to keep things simple?)
In all these examples the A team has the ball

To receive a pass: (ASt + APa) vs (DSt + DPa).
To beat a defender/ride tackle: (APa + ASk) vs (DSt + DSk)
To intercept a pass: (2*ASk) vs (DSk + DPa)

Hopefully this reflects how difficult it is to just intercept passes, but the defending team still have 2 chances to win the ball because although the pass might reach its target, that's no guarantee the intended recipient will come away with the ball. Of course, this will lead to specialists, with your Ruud Gullit able to pass the ball to anyone (Skill 70), but also unable to defend or to receive passes when marked. Your players wwill have different stats according to where you want to play them, but the players shouldn't neglect any of the areas in case they let their team down.

	19-03-2004 19:31									#307
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The new suggestions look interesting

Gold orders sent BTW.

	19-03-2004 19:41									#308
	Got spare money?

* alva goes back playing a simple game..,say CM4...

	19-03-2004 19:53									#309
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*duke sends the Crazy Gang in to rip the sleeves off alva's suit while he's out of the changing rooms

What's wrong with that? It's simple enough isn't it? Also requires a minimum of work from the GM, apart from coding the pitch that is.

	19-03-2004 20:09									#310
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Duke, are you saying that we'd have 6 stats (3 for O, 3 for D) out of the 100? It looks like you tried to balance it, but skill looks to be the load up pick.

Also consider a person that gets a pass in the open with 70 pace, 30 skill, and 0 strength. He could pretty much run it in without getting tackled.

I like the idea of stats, but they need to be thought out for exploits and such.

	19-03-2004 20:12									#311
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I was about to say "great go for it", but Spaced is right. You can make a "tank" player who is almost impossible to tackle and simply run for the goal.

-Jam

	19-03-2004 20:15									#312
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But this person would have far more difficulty if they were faced by 2 defenders, wouldn't they? They'd also find it quite difficult to pass the ball to someone else who could shoot when 2 defenders came to mark him, if he had such high stats. All the numbers for defense are cumulative, apart from interceptions, in which case they are applied separately. However, players in the same square can both tackle an opponent, or they can converge upon him, whereas an interception can be made anywhere if the ball passes through or next to your square, so on a long pass then the opposition can get several bites at the cherry.
Besides, goals are quite frequent in 5-a-side so that would be entirely normal.

And I'm only suggesting that you divide your 100 into three different attributes. The same stats work for attack and defence. If you reckon Skill is the best stat, then by all means make it high, but if all your teammates do then you'll find the opposition will start to just walk through your team to score, because you won't be quick or strong enough to win the ball back.

	19-03-2004 20:52									#313
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Jamski, could you do me a little table with just six squares please, so that I can demonstrate a little of the way that the scores would operate with a proper diagram. I only want a 3 by 2 grid, with player A (Michael Owen, maybe) in the middle of one side, and players B and C (say, Diego Placente and Mauricio Pochettino ) on the two corners of the other side. I hope that this is enough explanation. If you can do it quick enough to PM me, then I'll edit it into this post, but if you want the +1, then post it here by all means.

(You can use whichever player names you'd like)

	19-03-2004 20:56									#314
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What I mean by the load up skill being skill, is that it is in the equations 5 times out of 12. Seems like passing should be strength and skill and not 2*skill.

My player from above would:
have a 70 on getting a pass
have a 100 on not getting tackled
have a 60 on getting a pass to another player

(all minus defensive bonuses)

and
have a 70 on blocking a pass
gets run over trying to tackle at 30
but intercepts almost all passes at 100

You may want to make a rule that no more than 50 in any stat. I did that in gladiator to keep people from loading up.

Don't get me wrong Duke, I like your idea, and I want to see it work. I'm also pretty good at finding holes in things.

	19-03-2004 21:01									#315
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code:












Player
B
(Placente)


Player
A
(Owen)







Player
C
(Pochettino)

	19-03-2004 21:16									#316
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Yes.

Thanks.

Now the stats are as follows:
Owen: Pace 50, Skill 35, Strength 15
Placente: Pace 30, Skill 30, Strength 40
Pochettino: Pace 35, Skill 15, Strength 50

Owen has the ball and is darting toward the Argentinian goal. The defenders think that he will go directly for goal, and so both move into the square between them.
If Owen goes here, then he will be tackled by both of them: ASk (35) + APa (50) < DSk (15+30) + DSt (50+40)
He loses the ball, and Argentina go on to win easily.
If, however, both defenders move towards Owen, but he goes around them, moving into the square vacated by either of them, then only the player Owen goes round can tackle, and he can carry on to score!
ASk (35) + APa (50) > DSk (15) + DSt (50), or
ASk (35) + APa (50) > DSk (30) + DSt (40).
Argentina go on to win on penalties instead.
If the defenders had stayed where they were (B&C), then Owen could have taken them both on by going between them, or taken one on. If one defender had moved to the square between them (B to middle), and the other did not (C), then Owen would have to face two tackles if he either went through the centre or onto the corner square still occupied by the defender (C). Otherwise, he'd only be tackled by one as he headed for the space (B).
Or he could have given the ball to Heskey, who'd have fallne over and given it away.

	19-03-2004 21:25									#317
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Strange, so the safest move is to actually run at a player, not to open space where the possiblity of getting gang tackled exists.

As the defender here you are totally hosed, as you'll need both of your guys on Owen to stop him. Hense Owen could run wither right or left and then run it in. Right, or am I not seeing this all the way yet?

	19-03-2004 21:31									#318
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But you only have to have the players in squares adjacent to where Owen is going to put in a tackle. If Owen runs to square B, and both defenders move to the centre, then only the defender who has moved from B can get a tackle in. Defender C can't move 2 squares to tackle. If they wanted to really do him, no questions asked, then Defender C could move into the square Owen is in, and Defender B moves to the middle square between where they start. This way, wherever he chooses to go, he will have 2 players in squares next to him and will lose the ball. And to be honest, Brian, in that situation he really ought to have passed.

(Sorry about the last bit - it's a football commentator cliché over here)
I'm off home. Zop is taking my moves for the weekend, and I'll be back on Monday with more dumb ideas.

	19-03-2004 22:18									#319
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quote: Originally posted by duke o' york If Terry Butcher (skill 20) had passed the ball, then (35+45>55+20) Koeman comes away with the ball, but since Beardsley was a magician with an ugly face, then he manages to thread the pass through into space for Lineker to run on to. (55+20>35+45-10) Is that clear?

No. Why would Beardsley has a 10% bonus?

	19-03-2004 22:37									#320
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I think the formulae need tuning, say:

Passing: (Skill of passer + Pace of receiver) vs (Strength and Pace of defender)
Tackling: (Pace and Skill of dribbler) vs (Pace and Skill of tackler)
Interception: no need, if a pass fails, the defender gains control of the ball.

	19-03-2004 23:23									#321
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quote: Why would Beardsley has a 10% bonus?

Because he's an ex-Toon, and to make up for his face.

-Jam

	20-03-2004 05:14									#322
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hmm getting better all the time

	20-03-2004 18:02									#323
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Book the entire Red team for stalling!

	20-03-2004 18:25									#324
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Well I thought it wise to see whether we are continuing with the current rules.

Also to the rules discussion above I'd add that this game needs refining in the order dept as well. Otherwise it's just the captain playing, at least for our team.

	20-03-2004 19:07									#325
	Inflate your Upload Space

Say, instead of rething how the players work, how about changing how the ball act.

What I mean is, why not change this game into something more similar to subeteo?
I think this might wok better with the format we have to work with.

	20-03-2004 21:02									#326
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Well, propose how that would work, alva!

	21-03-2004 09:07									#327
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quote: Originally posted by Zopperoni Book the entire Red team for stalling!

Book them all, now!

	21-03-2004 10:25									#328
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wow that's pretty complex. why not a chess type thing instead so there's no number crunching...

	21-03-2004 15:54									#329
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We like complex rules

And we like statistics even more

Red team are all booked

-Jam

	21-03-2004 16:24									#330
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quote: Originally posted by Doc Well I thought it wise to see whether we are continuing with the current rules. Also to the rules discussion above I'd add that this game needs refining in the order dept as well. Otherwise it's just the captain playing, at least for our team.

Ffs, I'll send orders as soon as it's confirmed all your ideas lately are for the future.