14-03-2004 23:11									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris And before having any you shut up, and don't play upon a tragedy for the sake of political gain.

No... YOU CHILL... be civil or don't bother discussing things on these forums.

	14-03-2004 23:17									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Ming No... YOU CHILL... be civil or don't bother discussing things on these forums.

Ming, I was referring to Aznar, not OliverFa. His administration did accuse the ETA mere minutes after the explosion, without any kind of proof of involvement at all. What I meant is, when a politician doesn't know about who commited the deed, he should shut up till he has some proof.

	14-03-2004 23:19									#93
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA By going against the law?

How can a justified law be against demonstrations?

	14-03-2004 23:21									#94
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You have the basic right to make them, but not always, in any location, and under any circumstances, since there might be situations where this right collides with other rights.

	14-03-2004 23:21									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Logics never pointed in the direction of the ETA. The ETA's goal is not to kill civilians, but official.s

Officials like teachers, painters, students, housewifes, plumbers... I suppose that all your other affirmations are as truth as this one...

quote: Enlightened leftists were suspicious of Aznar's accusations in the first place, and especially because they had a strange way of confirming the validity of his anti ETA policy.

Which accusations? Aznar didn΄t named ETA. And by the way, I remember again that the other parties also did. Specially important is the declaration of Ibarreche (The head of Basque government) on the morning of Thursday balming ETA. You can say that I lie or you can and watch the video. If you can stand knowing the truth of course.

quote: We don't know what they were going to do with these explosives.

How many things can you do with explosives? A children party? A neighbourhood celebration? Refurnishing a building?

	14-03-2004 23:26									#96
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA Officials like teachers, painters, students, housewifes, plumbers... I suppose that all your other affirmations are as truth as this one...

Cites? From what I know of the ETA, those people were never the targets, but victims of collateral damage. Which is still tragic, BTW, but points in the direction that the ETA does not willingly target civilians for the sake of it.

quote: Which accusations? Aznar didn΄t named ETA. And by the way, I remember again that the other parties also did. Specially important is the declaration of Ibarreche (The head of Basque government) on the morning of Thursday balming ETA. You can say that I lie or you can and watch the video. If you can stand knowing the truth of course.

Remarkably, the Security council did, as did Spanish ambassadors in the world. I guess Aznar has been a victim of their boldness?

quote: How many things can you do with explosives? A children party? A neighbourhood celebration? Refurnishing a building?

Plant bombs in a building and warn the police, as they usually do. Not in the train.

	14-03-2004 23:28									#97
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro You have the basic right to make them, but not always, in any location, and under any circumstances, since there might be situations where this right collides with other rights.

Yeah, but the Spanish law seems overwhelming in this domain. What's wrong with text messages? Did they have to ask for the police's authorization? Especially in the case of a tragedy like this, letting your citizens express themselves is the least thing you can do.

	14-03-2004 23:36									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Cites? From what I know of the ETA, those people were never the targets, but victims of collateral damage. Which is still tragic, BTW, but points in the direction that the ETA does not willingly target civilians for the sake of it.

They did target all this kind of people. Again. you just need to go to the library and look for old newspapers for it.

Isn΄t surprising for such a vocal member like you to be so much misinformed? Please inform yourself better before saying anything so much vocally.

And even if ETA didn΄t target civillians... a life is a life. And officials are still innocent.

	14-03-2004 23:41									#99
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OK, Oliver, I'm leaving because if I keep on with this conversation I'm going to say something that could get me banned.

	14-03-2004 23:43									#100
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You're right, I don't know much about the ETA, I just read what sometimes transpire in American news sources. Though, since the opinions on this seem to be clearly polarized left/right, I can't take your word for it, and neither can I take the word of the left. I will suspend my judgement for now.

However, the vastly dominant opinion in Canadian sources is that Al-Qaeda was guilty, and the reasons given looked valid.

	14-03-2004 23:48									#101
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I think Oncle Boris means the ETA tries to make a difference by striking fear among the political class, by directly targetting it, whereas Al Qaeda tries to strike fear in the general population by killing as many people as possible, without discriminating with their ties to the political class.

Don't get me wrong: I hate the ETA, this group is pure fascistic scum that will only help the Basques become a backward mafia nation But the murder of so many people without even the remote targetting of a politican doesn't look like their modus operandi

	14-03-2004 23:55									#102
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Is it not already 90% sure that the whole "blame ETA" thing was a cover-up by the Francoesque Spanish Govenment?

-Jam

	14-03-2004 23:58									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Is it not already 90% sure that the whole "blame ETA" thing was a cover-up by the Francoesque Spanish Govenment?

PP yeasayers refuse to accept it.

	15-03-2004 00:08									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I think Oncle Boris means the ETA tries to make a difference by striking fear among the political class, by directly targetting it, whereas Al Qaeda tries to strike fear in the general population by killing as many people as possible, without discriminating with their ties to the political class.

Yes.

quote: Don't get me wrong: I hate the ETA, this group is pure fascistic scum that will only help the Basques become a backward mafia nation But the murder of so many people without even the remote targetting of a politican doesn't look like their modus operandi

I think the ETA is outdated as things are. But there were many national groups in the 60s and 70s, and those had not wholly unjustified causes. Since I don't know much about Basque history, I will not pronounce myself on the ETA.

	15-03-2004 00:09									#105
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BTW, according to French TV, there will be no serious estimates of the election's results until the "end of the evening". I would guess that's three hours more to wait, or so.

	15-03-2004 00:14									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I think the ETA is outdated as things are. But there were many national groups in the 60s and 70s, and those had not wholly unjustified causes. Since I don't know much about Basque history, I will not pronounce myself on the ETA.

The anti-Franco ETA was quite different from today's ETA. They did not only fought for freedom of the Basque country, they fought for freedom in general. With the arrival of democracy in Spain, their methods have become useless, and a great many Basques don't want their violence anymore.

Since then, the ETA has degenrated into a mafia-like organization that makes money and gets members thanks to violence. They are pressuring the Basque intellectual elite, and do fearmongering among the Basque population, even those who want to achieve autonomy through political means.

They are scum

	15-03-2004 01:07									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Is it not already 90% sure that the whole "blame ETA" thing was a cover-up by the Francoesque Spanish Govenment? -Jam

Yes....

But being honest, one can't really call it a "cover-up" in the full sense of the word, considering that the government and the police began to release information pointing to AQ quite soon after their earlier declarations (in other words, with plenty of time before the elections), and even in those first declarations there are remarks where they say stuff like: "ETA is (was) our main suspect, but we are still going to pursue all the other possibilities in the investigation as it progresses".

So they really didn't close the door on AQ, they just spoke too soon about ETA, admittedly knowing that would be the possibility that'd benefit them the most for the elections....and then they began to realize their mistake and backtracked.

So one could still call it a "cover-up", but a very sloppy and premature one that was gradually aborted.

Btw, about ETA's "modus operandi"...like one Spanish commentator said on tv, one can't really pretend to argue that ETA has always played or will forever play 100% by those so-called "rules" (or actually generalizations), as there have been times when they have not done so. Their "record" did indeed make their responsability quite unlikely, but not impossible.

	15-03-2004 01:23									#108
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I will repeat my observation from thread one: the news of this attack was the very first thing I hear when I woke up, which was 7am Eastern ST on the day it happend-it was the first thing cause my alarm is the radio going on unto a news station. The very first thing I heard, after the announcer saying hundreds of people have been killed by simultanous bombings (and at this point, no number was given, I though that meant 2, not 10), the Spanish Government blames ETA for the attacks- and just like I said on the previous thread-it struck me how the government could be saying it was ETA so quickly, when the MO (simultanoues bombings) was something that struck me as Al Qeada.

Now, DD keep positng evidence that woul posit some links to ETA-fine. The question was, why so soon? It took a couple of days after 9/11 for the consensus to become solid behind the notion Osama was behind the attacks. The Spanish government could have said little the firt day as to whom they thought had done it, and all the accusation coming out now would not be able to stick. But I do think the government was too quick to blame ETA-I don;t think it was for calcualted political reasons-I think they wanted it to be ETA and not Al Qaeda, and shot their mouths off too early.

	15-03-2004 01:25									#109
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Does anyone know how the polls have the election now?

	15-03-2004 01:27									#110
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Yes.

	15-03-2004 01:29									#111
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I haven't seen any numbers yet, but it seems the PP has lost somewhat, but currently it seems unclear if they lost that much that they'll lose the entire elections.

	15-03-2004 01:30									#112
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Correction: a German news site has both sides currently at ca. 40%

	15-03-2004 01:32									#113
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Sounds like a nail biter.

	15-03-2004 01:33									#114
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Another one says Aznars PP has lost (36%), PSOE wins (43%).

Hm, seems we have to wait a little until it is clear.

	15-03-2004 01:45									#115
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Seems PP is still ahead on the polls but only slightly.

	15-03-2004 01:47									#116
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τηλεοπτικό δίκτυο Telecinco δίνει 40,6% στο Λαϊκό Κόμμα και 38,3% στους Σοσιαλιστές, ενώ η κρατική τηλεόραση 41,4% στους Σοσιαλιστές και 36 % στο Λαϊκό Κόμμα και το Radio SER, 40,5% στους Σοσιαλιστές και 39,5% στο Λαϊκό Κόμμα.

	15-03-2004 01:47									#117
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It depends which poll. I'd say "too close to call" is the safe bet for now.

	15-03-2004 01:48									#118
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telecino: 40,6% to PP 38,3% to socialists
state TV: 41,1 socialists, 36 PP
radio ser 40,5 socialists, 39,5% PP

	15-03-2004 01:48									#119
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 τηλεοπτικό δίκτυο Telecinco δίνει 40,6% στο Λαϊκό Κόμμα και 38,3% στους Σοσιαλιστές, ενώ η κρατική τηλεόραση 41,4% στους Σοσιαλιστές και 36 % στο Λαϊκό Κόμμα και το Radio SER, 40,5% στους Σοσιαλιστές και 39,5% στο Λαϊκό Κόμμα.

Dude, that's all Greek to me.

	15-03-2004 01:49									#120
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I'm guessing it says something similar to:

State television: Socialists (SPOE): 154-158 seats; Popular Party (PP): 150-154 seats
Cadena Ser radio: SPOE: 151-159; PP: 154-160
Telecino television: SPOE: 141 seats; PP: 169 seats
Total number of seats: 350