19-03-2004 00:11									#61
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Paiktis, you are plainly partisan on this. Do you believe the serbs all to be saints and the ethnic Albanians all to be monsters?

	19-03-2004 00:15									#62
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quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader Paiktis, you are plainly partisan on this. Do you believe the serbs all to be saints and the ethnic Albanians all to be monsters?

Far far from that. There have been horryfying attrocities commited by the Serbs. I'm however always ready to point out other parameters of the conflict which are also proven. There's a lot of guilt to go around to everyone and everyone should admit his own part in it and be judged for it. Lest we create only "demon serbs", innocent victims and benevolent international community carricatures.
Reality always makes better paths to solutions and explains the present and the past.

	19-03-2004 00:31									#63
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc What concern was it of the international community to begin with?

Oh come on. A government is not always free in its decisions - imagine Clinton would have simply said "This is not our problem" while the international media is full of stories about the conflict, and when the horrors of the previous years (Bosnia) are still alive. Once the story is big enough, you can't sit there and do nothing, even when nobody actually wants to do the job.

Just take the "appeasement" rhetorics now. Can you imagine Clinton appearing in the US media as appeaser of Milosevic, as weak leader, etc?

	19-03-2004 00:36									#64
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Oh come on. A government is not always free in its decisions - imagine Clinton would have simply said "This is not our problem" while the international media is full of stories about the conflict, and when the horrors of the previous years (Bosnia) are still alive.

The only substantial difference I can see between Yugoslavia and Sudan (a place with a higher body count) is that the victims were white. I'm sorry but I don't see that as sufficent reason for getting involved in an internal conflict.

	19-03-2004 00:42									#65
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Just take the "appeasement" rhetorics now. Can you imagine Clinton appearing in the US media as appeaser of Milosevic, as weak leader, etc?

Where are the stories about appeasing Omar al-Bashir?

	19-03-2004 00:42									#66
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc The only substantial difference I can see between Yugoslavia and Sudan (a place with a higher body count) is that the victims were white. I'm sorry but I don't see that as sufficent reason for getting involved in an internal conflict.

Maybe for Americans, but for the EU having a civil war ridden country right on your doorstep is not ideal. Considering the US won't let us make our own defense force as it would devalue NATO, the US will automatically be involved if the EU are, as any EU action will run through NATO.

	19-03-2004 00:49									#67
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Coming back to the present for a bit, I think this battle actually concerns the future status of Kosovo. Will it be an autonomous province? Will it remain and be returned to Serbia? The absence of a concrete future plan for Kosovo sends the message that it's up for grabs so to speak and everyone will jump on the occasion.

Granted that this absence of future plan for it was done deliberately but maybe it is now producing more problems that it originally was thought to prevent.

	19-03-2004 00:49									#68
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue Maybe for Americans, but for the EU having a civil war ridden country right on your doorstep is not ideal.

If the French have the ability to deal with a civil war in Africa without bothering us, there is more than enough military might sitting in European countries to meddle in the internal affairs of countries residing on thier continent without involving us.

	19-03-2004 00:51									#69
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc If the French have the ability to deal with a civil war in Africa without bothering us, there is more than enough military might sitting in European countries to meddle in the internal affairs of countries residing on thier continent without involving us.

You wanted to be involved and bomb Serbia that's why US and UK forces were training UCK in terrorist tactics long before there was the erruption of violence in Kosovo.

	19-03-2004 00:52									#70
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Nevermind. I forgot my own pledge about talking to you in this thread for a moment.

	19-03-2004 00:53									#71
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I thought you said you were not going to respond to me. So get on with it?

	19-03-2004 00:53									#72
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After your edit consider my last post non existant.

	19-03-2004 01:05									#73
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DD:

It does not matter if we see now valid reasons when the public opinion at this time, when confronted with the news about the conflict, demanded a solution. Clinton was free to do something, or to do nothing, but doing nothing wouldn't have been without consequences for him. The thing with the superpower status is that people expect all kind of help, and you can only refuse to act if you can sell that to your public. With a civil war of that dimension within Europe, with actions quickly compared in the press to those of the Nazis, I doubt any President would have looked good when doing nothing....

And of course people have another view of things extensively covered in the media, and the entire conflict on the Balkan was indeed covered much more like other conflicts, say in Africa. it may be sad, but it is also a fact, and if we like that or not - it influences people, and it influences politics.

	19-03-2004 01:09									#74
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It's this conflict that makes me wonder about Old Europe's demands for the UN in Iraq.

	19-03-2004 01:15									#75
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As the clash was intensifying Clinton had the perfect opportunity to try and prove NATO was still relevant after the collapse of USSR. This was a golden opportunity which he couldn't pass by. It's amusing that Americans seem to believe they were dragged in on this.

	19-03-2004 01:17									#76
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Wasn't it Albright's War?

	19-03-2004 01:18									#77
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 that's why US and UK forces were training UCK in terrorist tactics long before there was the erruption of violence in Kosovo.

A lie repeated a thousand times is still a lie.

	19-03-2004 01:19									#78
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It's not a lie Oerdin. Would you want the sources again?

	19-03-2004 01:22									#79
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And I'm not saying or blaming everything that happened in the US/UK or Europe, that would be absurd. They did have... considerable aid unfortunately by certain... local people eager to crack down revolts as they saw fit.

	19-03-2004 01:28									#80
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Nor am I leaving out the Greek government's part in supporting the Milosevic regime for trade benefits and feeding crap to the Greek people about what the situation was.

	19-03-2004 01:32									#81
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DD:

But it is a fact that public acceptance of military action in (most countries) of Europe was there in case of Kosovo, and there was also a basic understanding that the NATO is united in this, and that an UN mandate failed mainly because of Russia (IIRC).

Now in Iraq it was much more difficult from the start, so the basic thought was that a bigger role of the UN would allow it more Euro nations to participate, because it counts as legitimization. However, if that now is still a good idea is another question.

	19-03-2004 01:41									#82
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In my view it was right to intervene. I don't really think there was any commited opposition to it.

Had I been living in the area I would have been desperate for someone to re-impose order.

No one disputes that a whole bunch of human misery was being suffered day after day.

Add to that the fact that historically the Balkans have been a tinder box for European conflict and I believe that all the neighbours of these folk had the right to insist that they stopped what they were doing.

And I am not willing to be judgmental about how the job of making them stop was achieved. No one had a magic wand and giving a lot of weight to minimising the risk to those who were asked to restore the peace lies OK with me. Anyway I know I could have done no better so I do not judge those who were unfortunate enough to have to get the job done.

As for where blame lies my own suspicion is that there were bad guys and less bad guys in every faction. So many criminal deeds were commited it would be a Herculean task to investigate and prosecute them all. I am suspicious of singling anyone out but as a court has been set up I will await its judgments and accept them when they are made. It looks like an honest court doing its best to me.

As for the present trouble it appears to stem from the fact that Mitrovica is the last part of the area which has a substantial serbian population remaining. It is common for ethnic groups which have managed to live side by side to separate out after they fall out badly. When I lived in Cyprus there were Turkish villages next to Greek ones. When I went back after the invasion everyone had withdrawn to one side or other of the dividing line. But people don't leave their homes readily so I guess there will be friction for a long time until that pocket of serbs falls in with that (sad) approach.

The peacekeepers will plainly be there for a very long time indeed. So long we may as well regard them as permanent.

I resent this - it diminishes me in my own eyes. But it is no good being other than realistic. Serb, Croat and ethnic albanian are locked in a bitterness so deep that they just are not going to get on together.

Economic well being is the only cure for this. If the region can get a decent economy going, self interest will bring about co-operation. And maybe a few hands will be less idle.

	19-03-2004 01:47									#83
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quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader The obsession the people of the Balkans have for indulging racial hatreds is naff.

Racial?

I thought the hatred was all about religion. Christian vs. Muslim.

	19-03-2004 01:48									#84
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I also agree that some sort of economy must get going in these parts. I think unemployment in Kosovo is extremely high but I may be wrong. Slovenia is free from ethnic tensions and it has flourished. But unfortunately it is "free" because it doesn't have minorities IIRC. If only in the Balkans the concept of homogenity being strength was somehow eradicated it would do wonders to the co-existance of people, who are in fact not that different and need to be less proud.

	19-03-2004 01:50									#85
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EST: I agree, I also thought it was right to act, for humanitarian as well as pure pragmatic reasons.

	19-03-2004 01:54									#86
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Coming back to the present for a bit, I think this battle actually concerns the future status of Kosovo. Will it be an autonomous province? Will it remain and be returned to Serbia? The absence of a concrete future plan for Kosovo sends the message that it's up for grabs so to speak and everyone will jump on the occasion. Granted that this absence of future plan for it was done deliberately but maybe it is now producing more problems that it originally was thought to prevent.

Why in the world should WE, meaning the UN, decide this issue? As in East Timor, the answer to the question of status should be put to a vote of the poeple concerned, the people of Kosovo.

It seems inevitable that Kosovo will be independent of Serbia. Whether it joins Albania is the real issue.

Why, Why, Why is the UN delaying a vote on this? Why?

	19-03-2004 01:58									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Why in the world should WE, meaning the UN, decide this issue? As in East Timor, the answer to the question of status should be put to a vote of the poeple concerned, the people of Kosovo. It seems inevitable that Kosovo will be independent of Serbia. Whether it joins Albania is the real issue. Why, Why, Why is the UN delaying a vote on this? Why?

Ideally, I think there should be an agreement between the Albanians and Belgrade about the future status of Kosovo. And then this agreement vigourosly enforced by the whole international community. When can such an agreement come is another question though. I fear not soon.

	19-03-2004 02:00									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Why, Why, Why is the UN delaying a vote on this? Why?

At this time independance is not on the table, not as long as the situation is - like we see currently - still so full of hate, because there are fears an independant Kosovo would mean that the Serb minority is driven out by violence. The region needs stability first, and the current events are not a sign of hope in this aspect.

	19-03-2004 02:09									#89
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BeBro, I see no possiblity of an end to hate in at any time soon if ever. There is not justification for the UN to deny people their sovereignty. None.

	19-03-2004 02:13									#90
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Ideally, I think there should be an agreement between the Albanians and Belgrade about the future status of Kosovo. And then this agreement vigourosly enforced by the whole international community. When can such an agreement come is another question though. I fear not soon.

Paiktis, there is no substitute for allowing the people of Kosovo the right to choose their own future.