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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
I do hope you work in management. If you can even delegate your prejudices, you are truly destined for greatness. |
I see you've skillfully avoided giving me a straight answer to my earlier question. Perhaps you should run for office.
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The Mad Viking
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of the Great White North
Feb 2000
time: 05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Kucinich
You're being an idiot.
1. Many people discriminate based on it. Thus, people of a different race will be subjected to different influences based on their race.
2. Those influences change who they are.
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OK, I understand now.
People discriminate based on race.
This discrimination INFLUENCES the race discriminated.
Therefore, we must continue to discriminate.
Thanks for clearing that up.
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No one is claiming that certain races are inherently inferior, they're claiming that certain races, due to culture, average socioeconomic status, etc. perform various crimes in different proportions. |
They're not INHERENTLY inferior, but due to culture, commit more crime.
by the way, Laz:
Crime stats are crap, compiled by people who have something to gain from what they say.
*
Incidentally, Cali, the traffic study did not mention how they "knew" 25% of blacks were speeding.
Have you ever heard of someone being let off without a speeding ticket?
Would an officer's bias influence whom he let off?
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Caligastia
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Laz-
If it was proven to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that these racial differences exist, would you treat individuals differently because of it? If no, then you have no good reason to think that I do. If yes, then the reason for your fanatical belief in racial equality is a result of your fear of how you would treat others if you dared to think differently.
So either your position is morally inferior (you are unable to treat others as individuals without believing their inherent potential is equal to yours), or you must concede that my position is not morally inferior to yours.
Which is it?
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Caligastia
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Whatever. If there's something I didn't make clear enough let me know.
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Lazarus and the Gimp
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Whale-raping abomination
Aug 2000
time: 05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
Laz-
If it was proven to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that these racial differences exist, would you treat individuals differently because of it? If no, then you have no good reason to think that I do.
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Here we have the first flaw in your argument. You have already stated that, while you do not consider yourself to treat individuals differently (I realise that we're overlooking the tendency to post highly derogatory articles, or incidents such as applauding someone for displaying photos that fit a racial stereotype. No matter), you expect the Police to do so on your behalf.
Take a step back and view that from a position of detachment. Can't you see the sheer hypocrisy in that? You consider yourself not to be racist, but want the police to be biased by racial prejudice on your behalf? Even with your blessing?
Even if I take at face value your claim that you don't let your apparent belief (that blacks are more likely to commit crimes than whites) to affect the way you interact with people personally, how is that stance compatible with what appears to be your acceptance (even blessing) of racism by proxy?
As far as I can see, there's only two views open on the subject. Either you think racial prejudice is unacceptable, or you don't. I fall into the first category without question. Where are you?
quote:
If yes, then the reason for your fanatical belief in racial equality is a result of your fear of how you would treat others if you dared to think differently. |
First of all, I fail to see how a desire to see people treated fairly and as individuals, without prejudice, equates to fanaticism. If that was the case, then it would mean that the centre-ground would be one of mild-to-moderate racism. Sorry- I don't buy that. The fanatics are the anti-black racists on one hand and the anti-white racists on the other, for my money. Allow me to nudge you off your presumed centre-ground....
The point you appear to be trying to make is that I'm afraid of what I would be if I was a racist. Well I'd be a different person, for a start. The feelings I hold towards racists are a mixture of pity, contempt, exasperation and anger. If "Racist Laz" came into existance, then "Non-racist Laz" would probably call him a tosser. Anyway, let's recap.
quote:
If it was proven to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that these racial differences exist |
As in an inherent racial tendency to commit crimes (as opposed to reactions arising from enviornmental factors- which I'm sceptical about anyway, as I've already covered in this thread)? Well my first action would be to look at what form of crimes are involved and the social factors arising. If it was an increased tendency to park in restricted areas then I genuinely wouldn't give a ****. I'd also look at the sociological drive behind the laws, which tend to be skewed in favour of the wealthy and powerful. Don't believe me? Take a look at the differences in how tax evasion and benefit fraud cases get treated.
If we're talking theft, assault, rape and murder? Well this is pure science-fiction, written by a dodgy author, but I'll humour it. Under those circumstances, I'd probably be subject to racial prejudices. Which I'd probably attempt to conceal, being a nice chap and all, but they'd probably still creep out in stressful situations.
Fear of this scenario (which I consider to be highly far-fetched) is not the reason why I oppose racism though. That's a terribly negative viewpoint. It's like suggesting I only have children because I'm scared of having nobody to wipe my arse when I'm old and senile. I oppose racial prejudice from others and myself because I believe all humans have the right to be treated as individuals- not pre-judged according to their skin tone. Do as you would be done by.
quote:
So either your position is morally inferior (you are unable to treat others as individuals without believing their inherent potential is equal to yours), or you must concede that my position is not morally inferior to yours.
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Let's not beat about the bush- yes, I think your position (tacit or overt acceptance/promotion) of racism is morally inferior to mine.
If you are convinced that a social group's "inherent potential" (as you put it- I'm not going down the semantics route) is inferior to yours, then on a visceral level I don't see how it's possible to consider them fully as individuals. The gut reaction will be coloured by it. On an intellectual level, one might try to counteract it, but it'll always be there. However that's the mens rea, not the actus reus, and I'll still maintain that I would not put anything into action.
Are you arguing that you can still treat people as individuals whilst believing their "inherent potential" to be inferior. Is that, perchance, done by getting other people to do your racism for you?
However, and it's a very, very big "however", that's the fantasy hypothesis. Meanwhile, back in the real world, I'm opposing racism while you're accepting it by proxy.
So, to sum up, you can take your claims of moral equality, and you can stick them up your arse.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Here we have the first flaw in your argument. You have already stated that, while you do not consider yourself to treat individuals differently (I realise that we're overlooking the tendency to post highly derogatory articles, or incidents such as applauding someone for displaying photos that fit a racial stereotype. No matter), |
I've accepted that some of the articles I've chosen to post in the past were bad choices, and apologised for them.
When did I applaud someone for displaying photos that fit a racial stereotype? I assume you're talking about the photos Asher posted a few weeks ago at CG. To say I "applauded" him for posting them is a gross exaggeration. I merely pointed out that the scene in his photo doesn't help improve the perception of that particular minority. Something nobody can deny.
quote:
you expect the Police to do so on your behalf.
Take a step back and view that from a position of detachment. Can't you see the sheer hypocrisy in that? You consider yourself not to be racist, but want the police to be biased by racial prejudice on your behalf? Even with your blessing? |
No. I don't want the police to be "racist" on my behalf. When I was referring to profiling as a good policing tool, I had in mind a scenario in which a description of a particular perpetrator has been given and therefore those fitting the description are investigated more closely.
For example, if someone with a NZ accent was calling in bomb threats to government buildings on a regular basis I wouldn't be upset if I ended up being questioned and investigated because I fit the profile. As long as I was afforded due process I would have no reason to complain. Yes, I would have been singled out because I fit a profile, but I would understand why NZers are suspect.
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Even if I take at face value your claim that you don't let your apparent belief (that blacks are more likely to commit crimes than whites) to affect the way you interact with people personally, how is that stance compatible with what appears to be your acceptance (even blessing) of racism by proxy? |
I hope I explained this to your satisfaction above.
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As far as I can see, there's only two views open on the subject. Either you think racial prejudice is unacceptable, or you don't. I fall into the first category without question. Where are you? |
Racial prejudice is unacceptable. I'm a reasonable person. I can see that hatred or dislike of others because of the way they were born is irrational.
quote:
First of all, I fail to see how a desire to see people treated fairly and as individuals, without prejudice, equates to fanaticism. If that was the case, then it would mean that the centre-ground would be one of mild-to-moderate racism. Sorry- I don't buy that. The fanatics are the anti-black racists on one hand and the anti-white racists on the other, for my money. Allow me to nudge you off your presumed centre-ground.... |
I'm not equating the desire to see people treated as individuals with fanaticism. I'm equating a rock-solid, moralistic conviction that there are no significant racial differences with fanaticism. As far as I am concerned this is a question of science, not of morals.
quote:
The point you appear to be trying to make is that I'm afraid of what I would be if I was a racist. Well I'd be a different person, for a start. The feelings I hold towards racists are a mixture of pity, contempt, exasperation and anger. If "Racist Laz" came into existance, then "Non-racist Laz" would probably call him a tosser. Anyway, let's recap. |
I think the problem we run into fairly often is our definitions of the word "racist". Your definition seems to be fairly broad.
Considering what a negative term "racist" is, I think it's unfair to apply it to everyone who believes in significant racial differences. "Racists" (as you would define them) are not an evil, one-dimensional borg. As hard as you find it to believe, there are people out there (like myself) who have an honest disagreement on this question that is not based on hatred or malice.
I am just as repulsed by KKK-like groups as you are.
I think the term "racist", considering it is always used so negatively, should only be applied to those who have an irrational dislike or hatred for other races.
quote:
As in an inherent racial tendency to commit crimes (as opposed to reactions arising from enviornmental factors- which I'm sceptical about anyway, as I've already covered in this thread)? Well my first action would be to look at what form of crimes are involved and the social factors arising. If it was an increased tendency to park in restricted areas then I genuinely wouldn't give a ****. I'd also look at the sociological drive behind the laws, which tend to be skewed in favour of the wealthy and powerful. Don't believe me? Take a look at the differences in how tax evasion and benefit fraud cases get treated.
If we're talking theft, assault, rape and murder? Well this is pure science-fiction, written by a dodgy author, but I'll humour it. Under those circumstances, I'd probably be subject to racial prejudices. Which I'd probably attempt to conceal, being a nice chap and all, but they'd probably still creep out in stressful situations.
Fear of this scenario (which I consider to be highly far-fetched) is not the reason why I oppose racism though. That's a terribly negative viewpoint. It's like suggesting I only have children because I'm scared of having nobody to wipe my arse when I'm old and senile. I oppose racial prejudice from others and myself because I believe all humans have the right to be treated as individuals- not pre-judged according to their skin tone. Do as you would be done by. |
So you admit that you would be unable to disconnect your understanding of racial differences from your ideal of treating others as individuals. I should attempt to explain why I am able to do this.
While I do think there are significant racial differences, I must also recognise that the differences are only average differences, and that there are plenty of people out there who will be outside of the norm for their race. Can I tell at a glance, or even during the course of a lengthy relationship, whether an individual is outside the norm for their race or not? Of course not! Therefore it's only fair for me to treat them as I would any other individual.
quote:
Let's not beat about the bush- yes, I think your position (tacit or overt acceptance/promotion) of racism is morally inferior to mine.
If you are convinced that a social group's "inherent potential" (as you put it- I'm not going down the semantics route) is inferior to yours, then on a visceral level I don't see how it's possible to consider them fully as individuals. The gut reaction will be coloured by it. On an intellectual level, one might try to counteract it, but it'll always be there. However that's the mens rea, not the actus reus, and I'll still maintain that I would not put anything into action.
Are you arguing that you can still treat people as individuals whilst believing their "inherent potential" to be inferior. Is that, perchance, done by getting other people to do your racism for you? |
Perhaps another thing I need to explain is that my religious beliefs separate the body from what makes a person a unique individual. As far as I am concerned the "real you" lives on after you die, and the body is just a vehicle. God loves all his children equally, so in the most important way the races are equal because they all carry individuals who have a unique and important part in God's plan.
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Japher
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Ook! Ook! Ack! Ack! Ack!
Jun 2002
time: 05:34
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http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/
"Sixty-four percent of prison inmates belonged to racial or ethnic minorities in 2001. "
"Altogether, an estimated 57% of inmates had a high school diploma or its equivalent. "
"nearly half were sentenced for a violent crime (49%)
a fifth were sentenced for a property crime (20%)
about a fifth were sentenced for a drug crime (21%)"
Which, in my opinion is strange, since on that page they said that 80% of accusations were due to property crime… I wonder a) what such a crime is (theft?), and b) what the normal punishment for such a crime is.
Lifetime chances of a person going to prison are higher for
-- men (11.3%) than for women (1.8%)
-- blacks (18.6%) and Hispanics (10%) than for whites (3.4%)
If your a black male your screwed.
With these numbers in mind:
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t02.htm
2002
White 5.4% unemployment
Black 10.5% unemployment
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Does poverty cause crime? Hispanic unemployment for the same times was about 7.5%.
I would say that poverty and crime have an interaction, that’s for sure. How much does racism play into the sentencing of minorities? That’s hard to say. Yet, is it racism, or prejudices against unemployed people?
Y=0.32+4.41X, where X=Chance to go to prison, and Y=unemployment… R^2 of 0.997
I also did a regression analysis on these values:
Equation: Prison = -13.6 + 3.08Unemployment
with a p-value of 0.034 for unemployment, indicating that unemployment status is a statistically significant factor for your odds of being put in jail.
Seeing as the unemployment rate is higher for minorities it would suggest that they would have higher odds of being put in jail... The real question is why aren't they working?
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Caligastia
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What? You don't have any comments on my previous post?
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
A few questions, Cal. I think it's my turn now.
1- Before this thread started, did you think blacks were more likely to commit crimes than whites? |
Yes, but not necessarily because of their genetic makeup.
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2- Have your views changed since then? |
No.
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3- When it comes to posting on racial issues, what would be your estimate as to the proportion of your posts (or the quotes from articles that you post) that portray blacks (as a group) in a negative sense, as opposed to a positive one? |
I would say that most of my posts on racial issues are usually arguing that racial differences exist rather than actually expressing what those differences are.
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4- If your "scientific" convictions about race extend to propensity to commit crimes, why are you apparently unable or unwilling to provide effective proof of this? |
I could spend a lot of time compiling the most convincing evidence I have, and post it, but I don't think it would be worth it. Nothing will convince you to change your mind on this.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Yet I'm not ignoring your "proofs", am I? Please do feel free to post more. |
Contrary to the impression you may have of me, I'm not out to make my racial group look better at the expense of others. What would be the point in that?
I'm more interested in finding out why so many are convinced that all races are equal when it comes to anything of significance.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions. See Synonyms at predilection.
Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion
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Are you saying I haven't examined any facts? Of course I have. But that's not the only thing that has helped form my opinons.
I used to think the way you do Laz. Then I moved to the US. My environment became far more racially diverse. At first I held onto my ideas of racial equality, but eventually I was no longer able to ignore my experiences. I realized from my experiences that races have significant differences after all. But one thing has not changed - the way I treat individuals.
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Japher
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Ook! Ook! Ack! Ack! Ack!
Jun 2002
time: 05:34
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I agree with Cali, of course...
Prejudism, no matter how you define it, is an assumption or an interpretation of thoughts based on preconceived notions disillusioned as fact.
IMO, that is a hypothesis.
Dismissing factors without basis to do so, especially when the factors seem significant, is bad methodology. Even if those factors are insulting.
I have performed many experiments that have proven to me that the factors I were using were not the right ones... However, in the case of crime, we are not allowed to address race as a factor without being called racist. Yet, every Justice Bureau DOES count race as a factor. Why? Because it is a blatantly obvious factor.
Is it genetic? Probably not. Comparing economic stature to the race however gives a better understanding. An understanding that would not, however, of come unless we address race as a factor.
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Why are you professing a belief that blacks commit more crimes when you can't back it up, Cal?
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Blacks are CONVICTED of more crimes than other races. Whether or not they COMMIT more crimes is not a discreet and easily measurable factor. I have seen no proof one way or the other.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Where's your proof, Cal?
Cal? Where's your proof?
Why are you professing a belief that blacks commit more crimes when you can't back it up, Cal? |
I could back it up, but you've already stated that no crime statistics are good enough for you. You'd rather believe anything else (conspiracy!) your fertile imagination can come up with. Therefore I can see you are not prepared to be reasonable.
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More to the point- why? |
Let's just put it down to experience.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:34
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deleted
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All times are GMT. The time now is 05:34.
Apolyton Time is 00:34. |
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30-03-2004 04:01
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