31-03-2004 22:41									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Well boo-hoo. Your move from a predominantly white area to a diverse area exactly mirrors my own. Only one of us is looking for racial stereotypes, however. I've got this terrible affliction. I'm a practical and pragmatic sort of bloke, and I form my opinions on people based on their actions. Your history sucks, and you aren't moving away from it. What goes on between your ears is entirely your own business, but once it gets on an internet board, be prepared to have people's opinions of you coloured by them.

Oh well. Nobody here really knows me anyway so whatever opinion they form is inherently ignorant.

I don't look for racial stereotypes BTW, I just call it like I see it. Certain opinions of mine would offend white supremicists just as much as the ones I've expressed here offend you. For example I think race mixing is a good thing biologically, and that whites are one of the most mixed races of all.

You're not interested in any of that though. You'd rather go on a moral crusade against what you perceive as "evil". Sorry, but as much as I'd like to believe the feel-good fairy tale that we are all the same under our skin, I just can't.

	31-03-2004 22:43									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Actually, my stance is that I've never seen crime stats that I couldn't expose as flawed, incomplete or skewed. I'm perfectly happy to be put to the test again. Your stance, as a self-proclaimed scientist, is to provide conclusive proof which is not flawed or skewed. Go to it, because you're heading for a "F".

I don't see you providing any proof for your "racial equality" theory either, so you also receive an "F".

	31-03-2004 22:55									#153
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I've already explained to you why I still treat people as individuals, but you're not interested in that are you Laz? Nope, you'd rather attack me because I choose not to believe as you do. You have zero evidence for your position, yet somehow my supposed lack of evidence is a failing on my part. Put simply, you're a frothing ideologue.

Last edited by Caligastia on 31-03-2004 at 23:03

	31-03-2004 23:35									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue They are. They get their career on the streets, pimp. *snaps fingers*

Need some time off to do other things, Stewie?

	31-03-2004 23:54									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Oh well. Nobody here really knows me anyway so whatever opinion they form is inherently ignorant. I don't look for racial stereotypes BTW, I just call it like I see it. Certain opinions of mine would offend white supremicists just as much as the ones I've expressed here offend you. For example I think race mixing is a good thing biologically, and that whites are one of the most mixed races of all. You're not interested in any of that though. You'd rather go on a moral crusade against what you perceive as "evil". Sorry, but as much as I'd like to believe the feel-good fairy tale that we are all the same under our skin, I just can't.

It seems to me that you always attribute differences to "race" as opposed to popular cultural or social influences. Go up to Boston, and tell me if you see any behavioral or other differences between back bay and Beacon Hill WASPs and Townie or Southie micks?

I've known quite a lot of people from Africa, and they have as little in common with American blacks as with white Americans. Same thing living on both sides of the US-Mexico border, and seeing how Mexican-Americans mostly stick out like sore thumbs in Mexico, just about as badly as gringo turistas. You can go back a ways before a lot of ethnic neighborhoods in the US intermixed to the extent they now have, and find a great deal of differences (and similar prejudices) regarding wops and polacks and hunkies and krauts and micks, etc. etc. Back before there were "colored" people in American urban neighborhoods to notice, there was plenty of the same sort of stereotyping and labelling of behavior in all "white" areas. You just had to listen to the language or accent or know the neighborhood, rather than look at skin color.

You observe different behaviors and social mores and attribute them to some fundamental difference that happens to relate to the melanin content in someone's skin. Unfortunately, for that theory, there's no identifiable anatomic or functional differences in brains between so-called "races" of humans, so if you want to explain behavior, you're barking up the wrong tree.

	01-04-2004 00:19									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Not sure I follow your logic here- are you suggesting that convenience is a justification for prejudice?

No! You don't say "this individual is X race, therefore this individual has such-and-such quality". You say "individuals of this race are more likely to have such-and-such quality".

	01-04-2004 00:21									#157
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quote: You observe different behaviors and social mores and attribute them to some fundamental difference that happens to relate to the melanin content in someone's skin. Unfortunately, for that theory, there's no identifiable anatomic or functional differences in brains between so-called "races" of humans, so if you want to explain behavior, you're barking up the wrong tree.

I reminded of the movie "The Jerk"... "I'm not Black!"

However, while you are right in many aspects, you ignore the fact that birds of feather do flock together. I don't know about Cali, but I associate behavior and social norms to the society in which one lives. Most of these societies are not as diverse as some of ours, and ARE associated with the melanin content of their skin, or nationality. So, indirectly, behavior prejudices based on skin color is totaly justifiable.

It's why we have Ghettos, Chinatowns, Little Italies, etc... and, it is why it is so funny that Tiger Woods is good at golf.

	01-04-2004 00:29									#158
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Viking OK, I understand now. People discriminate based on race. This discrimination INFLUENCES the race discriminated. Therefore, we must continue to discriminate. Thanks for clearing that up.

I never stated there was some sort of obligation to discriminate there, just that in certain circumstances it is perfectly valid (in the sense that it is ACTUALLY TRUE) to make the statement that "because so-and-so is a member of group X, so-and-so is more likely to have such-and-such quality."

Are you saying it is somehow wrong to say something that is true?

quote: No one is claiming that certain races are inherently inferior, they're claiming that certain races, due to culture, average socioeconomic status, etc. perform various crimes in different proportions.

quote: They're not INHERENTLY inferior, but due to culture, commit more crime.

Yup. The genes for extra melotonin, or whatever it's called, in your skin certainly has no effect on anything else.

However, are you claiming that statistically, black are indistinguishable from white people? That's why we've had several black presidents?

	01-04-2004 00:48									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I've already explained to you why I still treat people as individuals, but you're not interested in that are you Laz? Nope, you'd rather attack me because I choose not to believe as you do. You have zero evidence for your position, yet somehow my supposed lack of evidence is a failing on my part. Put simply, you're a frothing ideologue.

That's because I take my position- treating people as individuals without prejudice- as a default. It's as pure and simple as it gets. As far as I can see, anything else requires clarification and justification.

If you disagree, and feel the default position is prejudice (or, as you would put it, scientific proof of increased propensity to commit crime) then which groups do you need to apply it against, and why? Instantly, your position requires clarification. Mine doesn't.

And you're a racist. Let's bask in our respective labels and see who feels more comfortable, shall we?

	01-04-2004 02:20									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp That's because I take my position- treating people as individuals without prejudice- as a default. It's as pure and simple as it gets. As far as I can see, anything else requires clarification and justification. If you disagree,

I don't disagree with your position of treating people as individuals without prejudice, I disagree with what you base that position on - the belief that all races are equal in any significant respect. That belief is what requires clarification and justification.

The bottom line is that I am able to treat people as individuals without having to believe their racial group is the same as mine in all significant aspects. You, however, require a foundational belief in racial equality (in significant aspects) before you can do this.

	01-04-2004 03:06									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich People discriminate based on race. However, are you claiming that statistically, black are indistinguishable from white people? That's why we've had several black presidents?

There was I thinking that the history of the slave trade, the American Civil War, British colonial history, 'scientific racism' and the lingering discontents after the American Civil War, had rather more to do with why the United States hasn't had black presidents- not the 'inherent' qualities, good or bad, of melatonin.

Gee, you haven't had any women presidents either.

Must be because women are inherently inferior to men.

	01-04-2004 04:43									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Japher It's why we have Ghettos, Chinatowns, Little Italies, etc... and, it is why it is so funny that Tiger Woods is good at golf.

Well, actually, the reasons we historically have had ghettos, Chinatowns and Little Italies is that if some uppity nigger, chink or wop decided to move into a white neighborhood, the good God-fearing Christian white folk of that neighborhood would generally tend to say or do something about it, and even if they didn't technically have the law on their side, they'd most often have law enforcement on their side, or at the least, looking the other way.

The majority indirectly and sometimes directly enforced the creation of those neighborhoods, by violence, by restrictive covenants on real estate sales, and by economic and social isolation. This happened historically in many US cities even outside of "race" unless you think the Irish are colored, too.

As far as Tiger goes, and Lee Elder before him, when things really were tough on the tour, the difference is we start letting 'em come in the front of the clubhouse and let 'em swing clubs, as opposed to having 'em come in the back of the clubhouse and carry clubs.

	01-04-2004 20:12									#163
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat It seems to me that you always attribute differences to "race" as opposed to popular cultural or social influences. Go up to Boston, and tell me if you see any behavioral or other differences between back bay and Beacon Hill WASPs and Townie or Southie micks? I've known quite a lot of people from Africa, and they have as little in common with American blacks as with white Americans. Same thing living on both sides of the US-Mexico border, and seeing how Mexican-Americans mostly stick out like sore thumbs in Mexico, just about as badly as gringo turistas. You can go back a ways before a lot of ethnic neighborhoods in the US intermixed to the extent they now have, and find a great deal of differences (and similar prejudices) regarding wops and polacks and hunkies and krauts and micks, etc. etc. Back before there were "colored" people in American urban neighborhoods to notice, there was plenty of the same sort of stereotyping and labelling of behavior in all "white" areas. You just had to listen to the language or accent or know the neighborhood, rather than look at skin color.

I don't think it's accurate to say I always attribute differences to race. I just think it's one of many factors. Other than that, everything you've said so far I agree with.

quote: You observe different behaviors and social mores and attribute them to some fundamental difference that happens to relate to the melanin content in someone's skin. Unfortunately, for that theory, there's no identifiable anatomic or functional differences in brains between so-called "races" of humans, so if you want to explain behavior, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Again, I would never try to explain human behaviour purely with race. I just don't think environment explains everything. A human baby is not a "blank slate".

	01-04-2004 22:54									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia The bottom line is that I am able to treat people as individuals without having to believe their racial group is the same as mine in all significant aspects. You, however, require a foundational belief in racial equality (in significant aspects) before you can do this.

No I don't. Go back and read my posts again.

	01-04-2004 23:36									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Lifetime chances of a person going to prison are higher for -- men (11.3%) than for women (1.8%) -- blacks (18.6%) and Hispanics (10%) than for whites (3.4%) If your a black male your screwed.

Let's ignore all the other factors that contribute to crime and assume these numbers are valid (a big assumption).

The vast majority (81%) of black American men will likely never commit a crime and go to jail.

Yet people like you say black men are screwed?

White folks look at blacks and think "criminal".

People say black culture creates criminals, and yet the majority of blacks will not commit a crime.

We got people saying they treat everyone as individuals and then they turn around and say them blacks can't be trusted.

Seems to me the problem isn't black people, but how others perceive them.

	01-04-2004 23:38									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp If you are convinced that a social group's "inherent potential" (as you put it- I'm not going down the semantics route) is inferior to yours, then on a visceral level I don't see how it's possible to consider them fully as individuals. The gut reaction will be coloured by it. On an intellectual level, one might try to counteract it, but it'll always be there. However that's the mens rea, not the actus reus, and I'll still maintain that I would not put anything into action.

To save repeating, I'm going to use the term "racial equality" to mean "races are equal in all significant biological aspects".

If your actions would be the same whether you believe in "racial equality" or not, then where is the moral superiority in believing in "racial equality"? Determining whether a belief in "racial equality" is accurate or not is soomething that only geneticists or biologists can do. If you are honest you will admit that you don't know for sure whether or not "racial equality" is a biological truth or not. You lean towards the idea that it is, I lean towards the idea that it isn't. Neither opinion has anything to do with morality.

You say that the mind would still be guilty even if the actions weren't, but guilty of what? Guilty of having an opinion on a biological matter? If the opinion doesn't affect the actions then how can the opinion be "guilty"? How can a moral judgement be placed on an opinion that doesn't affect you enough to stop you from treating others as individuals? Considering someone as a unique individual is not incompatible with recognising that they may or may not have similarities to others of their kind.

I still think your tendency toward a belief in "racial equality" is just a mental crutch to make it easier for you to treat others as individuals.

	01-04-2004 23:46									#167
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quote: Yet people like you say black men are screwed?

18% is high IMO... this is probably the reason behind AA.

quote: White folks look at blacks and think "criminal".

1 out 5 are, apparently.

quote: People say black culture creates criminals, and yet the majority of blacks will not commit a crime.

A much smaller majority than of other communities.

quote: We got people saying they treat everyone as individuals and then they turn around and say them blacks can't be trusted.

Don't put words in my mouth.

quote: Seems to me the problem isn't black people, but how others perceive them.

Good point. How do you change this perception? By idolizing rappers who think it's cool to dress and act like a ganster? Perception is determined by public image, and the black community has done a poor job at best. Of course there have been many positive black roll models, several of which I admire. However, their efforts are hindered by those they considered to be "on their side"... Yes, it is perception that is the problem, and it is the black community, since they make their own image.

	02-04-2004 00:17									#168
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom There was I thinking that the history of the slave trade, the American Civil War, British colonial history, 'scientific racism' and the lingering discontents after the American Civil War, had rather more to do with why the United States hasn't had black presidents- not the 'inherent' qualities, good or bad, of melatonin. Gee, you haven't had any women presidents either. Must be because women are inherently inferior to men.

Have I made any value judgements?

I've pointed out inequality, I've not assigned any values like "better" to them.

	02-04-2004 00:51									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I still think your tendency toward a belief in "racial equality" is just a mental crutch to make it easier for you to treat others as individuals.

While I think your long-established practise of posting articles giving unfavourable "facts" (that you fail to back up) about blacks in general comprehensively shafts your claims to treat them fairly as individuals. I also don't notice you correcting anyone using your "facts" in more overtly offensive ways

There is no balance. Even when you reassure us how groovy and non-racist you are, you're still keen to reassure us that your opinions of general black inferiority were kicked off by personal experience.


You'll notice I'm not alone in thinking your actions on race issues are, to say the least, distasteful. This is not some grand conspiracy against you- it's just based on how you act.

	02-04-2004 14:38									#170
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I don't remember seeing that many articles from Caligastia that were anti-black..

	02-04-2004 20:22									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp While I think your long-established practise of posting articles giving unfavourable "facts" (that you fail to back up) about blacks in general comprehensively shafts your claims to treat them fairly as individuals. I also don't notice you correcting anyone using your "facts" in more overtly offensive ways There is no balance. Even when you reassure us how groovy and non-racist you are, you're still keen to reassure us that your opinions of general black inferiority were kicked off by personal experience. You'll notice I'm not alone in thinking your actions on race issues are, to say the least, distasteful. This is not some grand conspiracy against you- it's just based on how you act.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find any article posted by me (besides the one in this thread) within the last two years that was specifically negative towards blacks. These days I usually argue the existence of race more than any differences between them.

I was a bit hasty in posting the article in this thread because I assumed speed camera data would be fairly reliable. I actually came across that article by accident while looking for an article about NJ police arrest rates by race.

	02-04-2004 23:26									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue I don't remember seeing that many articles from Caligastia that were anti-black..

PAthetic: That's because you're an idiot who probably can't remember many nazi articles that were anti-semetic.

	02-04-2004 23:32									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Japher How do you change this perception? By idolizing rappers who think it's cool to dress and act like a ganster? Perception is determined by public image, and the black community has done a poor job at best.

And next you'll be telling us that whites have a bad public image cause white kids listen to Marilyn Mansion. Of course that not true because... well they're white.


Yeah, you're one of these people who says rap music is violent and that's why black kids are violent.

But, someone says violent video games create violent kids, you'll go that's stupid. If someone says violent moves creates violent people, you'll say no way.

	03-04-2004 00:56									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I was a bit hasty in posting the article in this thread because I assumed speed camera data would be fairly reliable. I actually came across that article by accident while looking for an article about NJ police arrest rates by race.

I believe the expression used by the youth of today is "Pwned". And with that, I bid you "Goodnight".

	03-04-2004 01:08									#175
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Whatever turns you on Laz.

You haven't proven a thing.

	03-04-2004 13:32									#176
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...and given that my argument was "We don't know" that's a good result for me. Meanwhile, how are your "scientific proofs" holding up?

	05-04-2004 19:48									#177
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If your argument really was "We don't know" then I'd just leave it at that. The problem is that you go on to state (without proof) that all racial groups commit crimes at the same rate, and that your views make you feel morally superior. I'm not accusing you of being morally inferior because even though I think your opinion is wrong, I know your intentions are good.

I'm not the one claiming moral superiority, you are, therefore you're the one who needs to explain himself.

	05-04-2004 20:31									#178
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quote: If your argument really was "We don't know" then I'd just leave it at that. The problem is that you go on to state (without proof) that all racial groups commit crimes at the same rate, and that your views make you feel morally superior. I'm not accusing you of being morally inferior because even though I think your opinion is wrong, I know your intentions are good.

It is absolutely retarded to claim, as an article of faith, that all groups commit crimes at the same rate, despite the fact that those groups have significantly different cultures, socioeconomic status, etc.