22-05-2004 06:07									#31
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just sent a reminder to CFC about chatting soon along with the save.

	22-05-2004 08:46									#32
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Donovan has been AWOL lately and his term is coming to an end.

Chieftess told me that no one is active on CFC team any more.

	22-05-2004 12:30									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Chieftess told me that no one is active on CFC team any more.

Not even the doughnut king?

	22-05-2004 13:06									#34
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No, he's been really busy lately. Left as C3C consul and he's held up the PTWDGII save many times since he's the only Python turnplayer.

That and he hasn't been doing much with the ISDG for many months.

	22-05-2004 20:15									#35
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I talked to a few CFC'er today and I'll post the logs shortly

Summary of the various chats I had in the last 24 hours:

- Let them know that we need to talk, Croxis and then Bootstoots posted same
- Somehow, the Money was sent, but didn't arrive. ??Double sent, thereby, canceling out??
- Found out that DZ is more or less MIA
- Suggested that they start E-mailing/PMing absent members, to get them involved, with this war coming.
- They did get the map but not the timeline.
- Outlined the plan, with the timeline. Told them when they will be getting techs. Stressed that we need to know what they are taking.
- Told them, the our possilbe Parth Strike and it's success depends on them.
- Stressed the further need for, if anything, updates every turn and a mass chat as soon as possible, to help answer any questions that some of their people might have.

I'm compiling the logs now.

Oh, Apologies to Trip, as I misquoted him to them, to get them moving. Trip was stating, in our Private Chat and in this Forum, how disorganized CFC was, so I used that to help "fire them up" a bit, by stating that he had said that"'they were so disorganized, that they couldn't find the way out of a paper bag". I had also told them, that that wasn't reflected by the other Consuls or the rest of the team. Again, it was something to get them fired up and moving, because, I did talk to one of their Government today.

Link to the logs Several Chats with CFC people, Part 1 of 2

E_T

Last edited by E_T on 23-05-2004 at 00:14

	22-05-2004 22:44									#36
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quote: Originally posted by E_T I talked to a few CFC'er today and I'll post the logs shortly Summary of the various chats I had in the last 24 hours: - Let them know that we need to talk, Croxis and then Bootstoots posted same - Somehow, the Money was sent, but didn't arrive. ??Double sent, thereby, canceling out?? - Found out that DZ is more or less MIA - Suggested that they start E-mailing/PMing absent members, to get them involved, with this war coming. - They did get the map but not the timeline. - Outlined the plan, with the timeline. Told them when they will be getting techs. Stressed that we need to know what they are taking. - Told them, the our possilbe Parth Strike and it's success depends on them. - Stressed the further need for, if anything, updates every turn and a mass chat as soon as possible, to help answer any questions that some of their people might have. I'm compiling the logs now. Oh, Apologies to Trip, as I misquoted him to them, to get them moving. Trip was stating, in our Private Chat and in this Forum, how disorganized CFC was, so I used that to help "fire them up" a bit, by stating that he had said that"'they were so disorganized, that they couldn't find the way out of a paper bag". I had also told them, that that wasn't reflected by the other Consuls or the rest of the team. Again, it was something to get them fired up and moving, because, I did talk to one of their Government today. I'll Edit a link to the logs when I get them up and posted E_T

	22-05-2004 23:56									#37
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Trip and I talked to CFC and he has set up a chat time of 1900GMT on Tuesday, in the #isdgfamtalks room.

Further talks with CFC

E_T

Last edited by E_T on 23-05-2004 at 00:16

	22-05-2004 23:56									#38
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Sorry E_T but I'm not buying that crap.

You and Trip have been getting at each other's throats for quite some time now (dare I say forever) and this is just one more example of one of you throwing dirt at the other. There is absolutely no need to "misquote" people to get their attention since the potential damage of CFC's perception of one of our Consuls next time that Consul talks to them might be worse than not getting their attention for one day.

Frankly, crap like this does not help our team at all, and "firing up CFC" in such a negative way is the LAST thing we need if we are expecting their full cooperation for our war.

*For the last time* (hopefully) whatever differences you and Trip have, settle them in private, not in a way which can tarnish our team or our members.

-MZ

	23-05-2004 00:31									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Sorry E_T but I'm not buying that crap. You and Trip have been getting at each other's throats for quite some time now (dare I say forever) and this is just one more example of one of you throwing dirt at the other. There is absolutely no need to "misquote" people to get their attention since the potential damage of CFC's perception of one of our Consuls next time that Consul talks to them might be worse than not getting their attention for one day. Frankly, crap like this does not help our team at all, and "firing up CFC" in such a negative way is the LAST thing we need if we are expecting their full cooperation for our war. *For the last time* (hopefully) whatever differences you and Trip have, settle them in private, not in a way which can tarnish our team or our members. -MZ

Well, I'm getting tired of Trip always stating that CFC is so disorganized and such, especially if we are counting on them to support us in this mission. He has made several references, not only here, but in chat about this. The thing is, you do what is needed, to make sure that they get involved, not berate them. That is a sign of real leadership, IMHO. I just got tired of it and used that to our advantage. Was it a low blow, yes. Do I feel like it was effective, yes. DID I Apologize for using that tactic, yes, because if I didn't feel like that, I would not even had said something in my post about it, and just let someone find it in the logs.

IS CFC suffering from lack or interest and losing people to builders blues, sure. We have been having the same. Has OUR FAM been getting a bit disorganized, SURE. Just because one person's perception of a particular team's is of disorganization and lack of leadership, doesn't mean that it's entirely true. Granted, they aren't as fortunate as us, to have such people as Trip or myself (or a lot of other people in out team), but sometimes reality mirrors perception and you need to do something to kick them awake.

Frankly, if it was totally up to him, we wouldn't even have CFC join us in this venture. But that is His opinion and not the majorities.

E_T

	23-05-2004 00:51									#40
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quote: Originally posted by E_T Well, I'm getting tired of Trip always stating that CFC is so disorganized and such, especially if we are counting on them to support us in this mission. He has made several references, not only here, but in chat about this. The thing is, you do what is needed, to make sure that they get involved, not berate them. That is a sign of real leadership, IMHO. I just got tired of it and used that to our advantage. Was it a low blow, yes. Do I feel like it was effective, yes. DID I Apologize for using that tactic, yes, because if I didn't feel like that, I would not even had said something in my post about it, and just let someone find it in the logs. IS CFC suffering from lack or interest and losing people to builders blues, sure. We have been having the same. Has OUR FAM been getting a bit disorganized, SURE. Just because one person's perception of a particular team's is of disorganization and lack of leadership, doesn't mean that it's entirely true. Granted, they aren't as fortunate as us, to have such people as Trip or myself (or a lot of other people in out team), but sometimes reality mirrors perception and you need to do something to kick them awake. Frankly, if it was totally up to him, we wouldn't even have CFC join us in this venture. But that is His opinion and not the majorities. E_T

I don't see how that could aid Apolyton or CFC for that matter. All it does is put down Trip and his reputation to CFC. Whether or not Trip talks about them being disorganized in the chat and/or the forum, THAT'S WHY IT'S PRIVATE! Why not make our forum public if everything we say will be brought to the other teams by one of our team members?

	23-05-2004 01:27									#41
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quote: Originally posted by E_T Well, I'm getting tired of Trip always stating that CFC is so disorganized and such, especially if we are counting on them to support us in this mission. He has made several references, not only here, but in chat about this. The thing is, you do what is needed, to make sure that they get involved, not berate them. That is a sign of real leadership, IMHO. I just got tired of it and used that to our advantage. Was it a low blow, yes. Do I feel like it was effective, yes. DID I Apologize for using that tactic, yes, because if I didn't feel like that, I would not even had said something in my post about it, and just let someone find it in the logs.

A sign of real leadership is showing respect not only for other teams but to your own teammates. I learned this the hard way a few months ago and I'll kindly point out that YOU were one of the people who had issues with teammates slamming other teammates. Now the pot is calling the kettle...

quote: IS CFC suffering from lack or interest and losing people to builders blues, sure. We have been having the same. Has OUR FAM been getting a bit disorganized, SURE. Just because one person's perception of a particular team's is of disorganization and lack of leadership, doesn't mean that it's entirely true. Granted, they aren't as fortunate as us, to have such people as Trip or myself (or a lot of other people in out team), but sometimes reality mirrors perception and you need to do something to kick them awake. Frankly, if it was totally up to him, we wouldn't even have CFC join us in this venture. But that is His opinion and not the majorities. E_T

This is still no excuse for the fact that there are many ways to call another team's attention and get them more active. Misquoting your teammates in a derogatory fashion is hardly the most innovative one. And I would be saying the exact same thing if Trip had done this to you. Whatever perceptions of our team towards others can be freely stated here, it is not diplomatic to say these things in public, period.

-MZ

	23-05-2004 02:38									#42
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quote: Originally posted by E_T Well, I'm getting tired of Trip always stating that CFC is so disorganized and such, especially if we are counting on them to support us in this mission. He has made several references, not only here, but in chat about this. The thing is, you do what is needed, to make sure that they get involved, not berate them. That is a sign of real leadership, IMHO. I just got tired of it and used that to our advantage. Was it a low blow, yes. Do I feel like it was effective, yes. DID I Apologize for using that tactic, yes, because if I didn't feel like that, I would not even had said something in my post about it, and just let someone find it in the logs. IS CFC suffering from lack or interest and losing people to builders blues, sure. We have been having the same. Has OUR FAM been getting a bit disorganized, SURE. Just because one person's perception of a particular team's is of disorganization and lack of leadership, doesn't mean that it's entirely true. Granted, they aren't as fortunate as us, to have such people as Trip or myself (or a lot of other people in out team), but sometimes reality mirrors perception and you need to do something to kick them awake. Frankly, if it was totally up to him, we wouldn't even have CFC join us in this venture. But that is His opinion and not the majorities.

Gee, now you're misquoting me within our own team, how mature.

Are they disorganized? Yes.

DZ, their only real committed member is retiring.

Their activity level is about so low they barely send the turn on any more.

Can you dispute this? Of course not.

No where have I said they shouldn't be a part of the invasion. Why do you think I just frickin spent 20 minutes while I was late to head back to my apartment rounding them up for a meeting for Christ's sake?

Don't use me against the other teams for your own selfish agenda.

I'll tell you one thing, if it were entirely up to me, I know who I wouldn't have involved with this invasion. And it wouldn't be CFC.

	23-05-2004 02:41									#43
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	23-05-2004 02:42									#44
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OK, guys CALM THE F*CK DOWN

Trip, it's done now, the only way back is for ET to apologise, and to contact CFC asap, and for him to tell them the truth about your opinion.

	23-05-2004 02:45									#45
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Yeah right, him do that?

He'll make up some BS about how doing that would "weaken our position in their eyes."

The only thing he'll do is spout more lies about me to them.

	23-05-2004 02:49									#46
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Trip, let me just say you are not really helping your cause with those last two posts.

I rest my case.

-MZ

	23-05-2004 02:51									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Yeah right, him do that? He'll make up some BS about how doing that would "weaken our position in their eyes." The only thing he'll do is spout more lies about me to them.

You have a reason to be angry Trip, but by make this into a big sh*t, you just make the team WORSE. We get disorganized, we don't focus on the REAL game issues, and it is hard to work with someone that is angry with you. This can easily be undone.

	23-05-2004 23:22									#48
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E_T,

For future reference, please leave plans for "disinformation campaigns" to the discretion of the FAM. If you have an idea for spreading such disinformation to other teams, it needs to be passed through and approved by proper channels. FAM Togas should have at least SOME role in such a campaign, as should the Consuls.

We've been over that issue before and agreed that the Consuls and others would agree to submit ourselves to the advice and in many cases the consent of the FAM. That rule applies to others as well.

Now, I know that the FAM hasn't been terribly active of late, especially where CFC is considered, but that doesn't mean that NON-FAM ministers should be engaging in FAM policy decisions without consulting anyone in either the FAM or the Consulate about them.

So in the future, please pass such issues by the FAM and the Consuls for approval before engaging in them.

Aside from that one note, I have little else to say on this issue. Frankly, I'm growing very tired of the Trip-vs-E_T ***-for-tat mess.

EDIT: LOL! ti*-for-tat was censored!

	24-05-2004 19:42									#49
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OK guys enough.

Trip is correct, CFC is disorganized. At least IMHO.

But telling CFC that was probably not the best approach we could take with them.

Lets work on communicating with them like we have been trying to do, and hopefully they wil get organized enough to contribute to the GWT operation.

Lets focas on the issues. Not internal politics, OK?

	27-05-2004 11:21									#50
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O.k., here's the deal. CFC expressed that they wouldn't have enough money to send us AND get their forces ready. Cheetah and I have been working together to reduce the expenditures and see what they absolutely need to send us.

So, I've been running my sim, up to the point of Navigation. And I have found this out.

They are sending us 80 gold this next turn. After that, they send us 3 turns at 40 gold per turn and then either 3 turns of 60 Gold OR 40-60-80 gold. The rest of the money will come from that one Barb Camp and proper research slider changes.

Currently, I have 50% up to 680 AD, then 30% for one turn, then 0% for the next and then back to 50%. All in all, this will leave us with 7 gold at the end of the major Upgrade turn.

Now that I have hard figures for the different turns, I'll see if I can tweek a few more gold out for us. But, between now and the Upgrades, CFC only needs to send us 100 gold more than the normal 40 GPT (total of 440 up to the Upgrades, counting this coming turn).

Also, I have talked to Micco and he is going to be sending us his treasury every turn, and we send it back, at the end of our turn. This keeps GCA/GWT from getting any money from them and we will have it available, if need be, to send to CFC or use ourselves, if absolutely neccesary.

MoI E_T

	27-06-2004 00:36									#51
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Proposed quick response:

quote: Sorry we haven't gotten back to you. We ultimately decided not to send anything at Parthemunde and send it all at Ruhrpott instead, in case they have Ansar waiting in the area - a possibility with Micco's early fall... You might also want to reconsider your target. GWT's slowmovers could end up just a little south of Sudspitze at your time of landing, and they might prevent you from taking Flammburg simply by stacking more units there than you have Riders. Even Longbows could be used to delay so that they could get additional units there, if they have enough of them. One idea that's been suggested in our forum is that you head further south and strike GCA's new developing core instead. For now, I suggest you set up to launch on an intermediate path that would allow you go to anywhere from Flammburg to GCA's south.

	28-06-2004 06:01									#52
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I could take over the CFC diplomacy if Con or Togas could tell me what they exactly want me to do.

Aidun

	30-06-2004 23:28									#53
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Sent a message to Cheetah and Annak of CFC

See Correspondences thread for full text

About the Upcoming strikes
About a possible sliding scale for then funding our research efforts
About Luxury trade stuff for CGN.
About them to look out for a "Lucky" Suicide force to take and hold atleast one of the Islands AND/OR a small strike after our strikes.
About how to further cut their Iron for building Upgradeable Units.

E_T

	01-07-2004 06:41									#54
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Just got this from Cheetah:

quote: I've been trying to reach you guys for some time. We would like to know what you are planning to do. Please respond by PM or mail ASAP.

Responding now.

	01-07-2004 06:44									#55
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err... nevermind. See Kloreep and E_T's posts in the FA Correspondance thread.

	21-07-2004 07:56									#56
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I've been discussing the CFC cash issue with Kloreep in chat. I suggested that we base the future cash flow on a minimum percentage of beaker count we would be willing to accept as aid from CFC.

So, if we research a tech that costs XXX beakers and we agree on, say, 25% or 30% support from CFC, then CFC would have to provide the equivalent in cash. The debate will be over what % will be acceptable for us, and obtainable for them but we definitely need to touch this issue in chat.

	21-07-2004 08:42									#57
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After Zarn and Cheetah's most recent pm (and email) I replied, telling them to come see us in #isdgfamtalks to chat.

Thus far nothing tonight. It's no secret to these guys how to contact us, however it does seem that they don't really prefer to "chat" ... they prefer to have dialogues via email.

As such, anyone could be ambassador. No mIRC needed. Just need to be active and Aidun would fit that role very nicely.

--Togas

	21-07-2004 09:14									#58
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For some reason, I know that several of them have problems connecting to our IRC server.

Also, Cheetah used to have DSL, but now only has ISDN, which he pays for Internet connection, by the minute. As for several of their other members, it seems that the more active of them all live in Europe (from what I've gathered from Idle chatter with Annka & Cheetah).

E_T

	21-07-2004 20:24									#59
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If they are Europeans, I could do a chat with them, but not this evening, because I have a test tomorrow and have to get up at 5 AM for that.

Aidun

	22-07-2004 10:49									#60
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I think Togas wrote a perfect letter to CFC.

If they have any more questions about our current arangement we might consider giving them the infomation that E_T put together that demonstrates that we are pulling most of the weight (rightly so) and that CFC will not be losing anything from our mutualy beneficial arangement.

We just need to decide on particular numbers that CFC will provide; we being CFC and APO. We need to make sure it's fair and that CFC isn't feeling "used" by us. I also think this strike that they are going to try on GWT will spark some interest in their team. Maybe some of their guys could start sending out PM's letting their member's know of the impending dual strike of CFC and APO.

It's a good idea to give them screen shots and such of our actual invasion; perhaps it will inspire more action/participation from CFC's membership.