14-04-2004 06:10									#181
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Aeson, I really wish you'd include dates (at least approximate ones) in your reports. The reports are nice, but it's hard to get a feel for a game without knowing when things are happening.

	14-04-2004 07:04									#182
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In Egypt's turn in 1395, I discovered a complication: they now have infantry. With Egypt's forces significant'y reduced, I've decided to embark on what I call Operation Razer's Edge, the destruction of all Egyptian cities on the Japanese subcontinent and very possibly beyond. Toward that end, I've broken off all but fifteen of my cannons from my main stack. Depending on how the attack Kyoto goes, I can think about splitting the cannon stack in half (there would still be close to forty in each smaller stack), or I can keep the force concentrated.

By the way, I adopted a naming convention of greek letters for my temporary camp cities on the Zulu continent - and unless I missed a letter or two, I built so many I ran out of letters! And that's just the camps, not including the permanent cities. Scientists, mostly in the Zulu cities but some elsewhere, could have researched Theory of Gravity or Magnetism at about a 25-turn pace with the science slider at zero; as it is, I'm pushing ahead with those techs myself in the hope of extorting industrial techs from Egypt eventually. (Although I didn't think things through all the way when I prioritized Magnetism over ToG, so I've slowed things down a bit until my caravels carrying some additional cannons reach Egypt; when the Great Lighthouse expires, my transport ships won't be able to move as quickly.)

I've decided to see if I can take Egypt without resorting to taking advantage of armies' ability to pillage with impunity. I don't mind taking some advantage of AI stupidity (and I'll certainly take full advantage of their reluctance to go after attack forces with armies in them), but I'll get more satisfaction out of the victory if I engage in something at least halfway resembling a fair fight.

Here's a picture of the Zulu continent with its camps and its wall of units.

Attachment: ad 1400 zululand.jpg
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	14-04-2004 08:23									#183
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I don't have it in front of me, but there is an auto bombardment key. The units will bombard the selected tile each turn.

	14-04-2004 08:33									#184
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So much for that idea. There were somewhere in the neighborhood of ten infantry in Kyoto, at least. I'll have to wear down Egypt's forces - if I can - before I can go on the offensive.

	14-04-2004 09:31									#185
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What are they doing research wise? After they come out of anarchy (short for AI in Sid), do they have a long way to go to modern age? They have to at least do all their own research.

Things get very ugly now with island maps. You have to move massive numbers and invade. Having infantry will be a big problem. The AI is at least willing to attack with them at times.

Can you pillage all the tiles with a few stacks and armies? Trying to get them to draw down the cites reserves and pop?

	14-04-2004 09:32									#186
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I've never been able to figure out the Auto-Bombard feature. I select the tile, point at the target, and I bombard the tile. The next turn, there is no auto-bombard....Beats Me

	14-04-2004 10:44									#187
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Sorry for no dates, but I post details from memory most of the time and don't pay much attention to date in general in my games. My timeline is pretty close to yours in this game (to be expected given the nature of the starting continent), just technologically a bit slower.

--------------

The pillaging from Armies isn't a big deal IMO. That the AI won't target a full health Army in the field is the problem, and would allow you to do the pillaging with regular units in complete safety anyways. It also makes for no risk bombardment stacks and not having to fight your way to the next target.

Egypt could have killed off my landing very easily I think, first turn. But since they won't target Armies the game is basically over. That's the real problem with Armies. To try to play without them on Sid would make the game close to impossible to win*. But, if you can survive until you have them, even on Sid, you have won**. You can limit how much of Army's capabilities you want to use, but it's in the hand of the player how close they want the victory to be.

*Standard victory conditions enabled, on maps where strong Sid AI can develop.
**In any 1 vs 1 scenario. You can still lose due to time and multiple opponents of course.

	14-04-2004 12:23									#188
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 What are they doing research wise? After they come out of anarchy (short for AI in Sid), do they have a long way to go to modern age? They have to at least do all their own research.

My guess is that they aren't much if any beyond Industrialization and Replaceable Parts, but it's hard to be sure. The real problem is that unless I break down and do massive pillaging with armies, the difference between infantry and riflemen is probably going to mean I'll need a lot more cannons - even beyond the hundred or so I already have - before I can mount an effective offensive. (Or else wait for Egypt to wear itself down to where they don't leave so many units in each city.) That's going to take some time, during which Egypt will keep progressing - and while they'll be slowed down by Fascism, unit support costs won't get in their way at all. Worse, if they bother to land an infantry invasion force on my home continent, I have nothing there that can do a decent job against it and will likely - barring very good luck with my cavalry - have to make peace.

	14-04-2004 14:25									#189
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To me, what makes an exploit an exploit is that it takes advantage of things the game's designers never thought of and therefore never had an opportunity to deal with adequately. Several of the features originally included in Civ 3 had to be seriously toned down or eliminated because while they made sense when used the ways the designers expected them to be used, they could be taken advantage of in ways that provided rather absurd advantages. (One of the more memorable such exploits that I recall was the ability to renegotiate a peace treaty and get towns every twenty turns without firing a shot back in the original Civ 3.)

I do not veiw taking advantage of the power of bombardment units as an exploit because after four generations of previous Civ games (if you count the two CTP games, which Firaxis certainly should have tried to learn from), it's hard to see how Firaxis could possibly have missed the idea of players' building and using massive bombardment stacks. Firaxis had every opportunity to factor the possibility into their design decisions both regarding game balance and regarding AI tactics.

Similarly, Firaxis certainly put some thought into decisons regarding when AIs should attack approaching enemy units and when AIs should wait for the approaching units to attack them. Their decisions might not be the best, but it's hard to see how a competent game designer could include armies in a game and not factor in the possibility that they might be accompanying assault stacks - including stacks with bombardment units. If the AIs are not particularly smart in that regard, it is not because Firaxis lacked opportunity to make them smarter.

In contrast, the idea of using armies to devastate a civ's entire economy without ever attacking or being attacked is completely out in left field compared both with how wars are fought in the real world and (to the best of my knowledge and understanding) with how they are normally fought in Civ. My guess is that the reason why AIs are completely incompetent at dealing with the tactic is that it never occurred to Firaxis that players might use it. In which case, considering the tactic's power, it would fall squrely within my concept of what constitutes an exploit. (Of course using exploits and borderline exploits on Sid level is a lot more understandable than it is on lower levels. )

Nathan

	14-04-2004 21:43									#190
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I have no problem with you concept and I don't use that tactic, because I want to retain the improvement.

I will do it when it is the best/only way to accomplish my goals. I figure that since they had barbs pillage land, they surely are aware of the idea.

It is not that they don't expect pillaging, it is that they continue to determine that the army/stack is too strong to attack. This is where they break down on other fronts as well. You do not have to have an army to get the same result, it just speeds up the process.

If you have a large enough stack in relation to their units types, they will not attack them, even if they contain no army or bombardment units.

	15-04-2004 01:15									#191
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Please ignore the following post, if you already know where and how to use the editor. This was for someone that asked

i see the alcohol 120% icon in the system tray

	15-04-2004 01:40									#192
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay In contrast, the idea of using armies to devastate a civ's entire economy without ever attacking or being attacked is completely out in left field compared both with how wars are fought in the real world and (to the best of my knowledge and understanding) with how they are normally fought in Civ. My guess is that the reason why AIs are completely incompetent at dealing with the tactic is that it never occurred to Firaxis that players might use it. In which case, considering the tactic's power, it would fall squrely within my concept of what constitutes an exploit. (Of course using exploits and borderline exploits on Sid level is a lot more understandable than it is on lower levels. )

Pillaging or not pillaging is entirely optional. With C3C resource model it is often enough to pillage a couple of resource squares to completely neuter an AI.

The big problem is that
(i) AI does not make armies - and I certainly remember AI armies in vanilla Civ, so this is a brand new screwup;
(ii) AI never attacks green armies in the field which basically makes you invulnerable once you have two or three of them and allows a human player to run circles around AI. This I think is an old problem but it is accenuated in C3C since armies are a much greater threat.

Just as Aeson pointed out, 10 armies or so essentially guarantee an eventual victory.

Wheteher it is an exploit or not - if we write off using armies as an exploit, what would be the "strategy" element of the game that is left? We all know what to research and what to build (or rather not build . There is only so much you can do with better terraforming and a lot of its benefits are eaten away by higher corruption,. So it is pointless to try to outproduce/outresearch a decent AI. So using armies intelligently is pretty much the only strategic option available to a human player.

Imo, if you eliminate each and every thing that a human player uses intelligently and AI does not then what is left is just a simulator, not a strategy game.

	15-04-2004 05:34									#193
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf i see the alcohol 120% icon in the system tray

As they say in MM6 at the guild "won't leave home with out"

	19-04-2004 16:12									#194
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You know what? This time I outdid myself.
I loaded down the 1.22 patch and now I can't access to any of my files any more

Sometimes I wonder why I bought a computer.

Ah well, moving right along... to my next Sid game.

	19-04-2004 21:14									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Mountain Sage You know what? This time I outdid myself. I loaded down the 1.22 patch and now I can't access to any of my files any more Sometimes I wonder why I bought a computer. Ah well, moving right along... to my next Sid game.

You can uninstall the patch and play your saves if you feel like it, but please let us know what you think of 1.22 on Sid if you stick with it.

	20-04-2004 15:01									#196
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I know. I would uninstall it only if I were to play one of my last two saves posted above.

I'm now still on Sid with Spain (archipelago, of course), and 8 other civs. I used a slightly edited map (didn't try to 'cheat' too hard as putting all other civs on 3-tiles islands...). I'll let you know when I've played a bit longer.

	21-04-2004 06:51									#197
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What is the map size MS? Large?

	21-04-2004 16:27									#198
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Yes, large, both of them. Shall I send you privately the map (the Spanish one, of course)?

	22-04-2004 00:06									#199
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If you got the time, I would like to see it. I am not much of a fan of Spain as a civ though.

	22-04-2004 01:26									#200
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 If you got the time, I would like to see it. I am not much of a fan of Spain as a civ though.

	22-04-2004 01:28									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Drachen

	22-04-2004 02:00									#202
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drachen
that's one mean nine tile pillaging monster

	22-04-2004 02:13									#203
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I have taken the last 8-10 days to play a couple of RPG's and I am about to start back at civ. I am interested in seeing what 1.22 has brought us.

	22-04-2004 02:40									#204
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf drachen that's one mean nine tile pillaging monster

That’s what I thought. The problem with this game is that the bonehead commander loaded up an army too full to get it to the enemy in time to save the game a couple of centuries ago.

	23-04-2004 01:51									#205
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Moutain Sage, I like the map and it is not unreasonable. Looking forward to your post.

Like I mention in the PM, I am not a fan of Spain. I feel that Religious trait is not all that useful for Sid. I would make only one switch and that would be to Monarchy or Republic. Mon is the most likely, but it depends on how things are going.

I maybe all alone, but I really don't care for Seafaring on Sid, especially on a large or huge island map. You will still need tech and or wonders to cross ocean tiles to attack. You cannot suicide armies. So you will gain little.

I would prefer Ag and Com. Ag for growth, com for OCN and gold.
You could make a case for Mil to get those promotions, since you will have so many wars and those early MGL's are critical. I would say you can skip it as time goes by you will have so many battles that you need not worry and soon can build armies in the MA city.

I have have games on Demi and above that the lack of an early MGL really hurt me, though.

I have not gotten started yet as I am still trying to figure out if I should play the way I want or take a stab at a pangea map to see if the GL is still available.

	26-04-2004 15:53									#206
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In my first try (the one at the beginning of this thread), I lost 15 turns switching to Monarchy, then Republic. On Sid, it's a killer. This is why I wanted a religeous civ.

Then, I needed Pottery and Masonry asap for Granaries and Palace pre-builts. This is why I chose seafaring, for the early curraghs and trading possibilities.
Half-prices harbors are just a by-product of the trait.
Of course, I could have chosen a commercial/industrious civ, but Spain has Alphabet, and you can't get to Philosophy and the GLibrary without it.

I also wanted to have my GA in the late Medieval Times (if I got that far, that is . Magellan's Voyage would be perfect.

Maybe next time I'll play France or the Dutch....

As for the map, I did a bit of 'overkill' by keeping most of the other civs isolated as long as possible, but we'll see...

You'll get a post by the end of he week (not much time to play).

Last edited by Mountain Sage on 26-04-2004 at 16:03

	26-04-2004 21:30									#207
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I have found that I do not need a palace prebuild. I have not tried it on a huge map though. It may be harder there due to the increased research cost.

I have also found that 1.22 has made it harder to get the beeline to work. Anyway here is what I have done to get the GL. Go hard for Writing-Phil and just time the arrivial of Phil to sell of my granary with 5 or 6 turns to go. This is that max amount of time it takes to rebuild it. I switch it to the GL and then add in workers. Usually it will take 6 workers to get to size 12.

You should have 12 tiles improved and mined. Maybe you have to get by with one irrigated cow or wheat. On large maps I have found that is enough. On std maps it is tougher. The key to me is that the AI will break the wonder cascade well before GL and have no prebuild.

In an island map you can control the GA for most civs as you do not have wars early, since you do not have contact. If you get one, you can still fight without your UU as the number of troops is small until you invade.

By then you have better units to use in most cases and just hold your UU till you want to trigger. Iroq works very well here. You get to use the UU to bust barbs and hold it for upgrades. Saving a few for triggering.

I would be surprised if you can get the Voyage built as they should beat you to all tech in the first three ages and will have better production with their bonus.

Sid is really a stone warmongers game. You must build troops and ships to haul them endlessly. The numbers are staggering. It is hard to be disciplined enough to not make improvements in your cities for a long time.

You must do all you can to keep research at a slow pace or the AI will run away. I have been in first place in score in the 1400-1500AD time frame and then looked up to see they have moved from close in tech to nearly a full age ahead. Landing tanks to fight my calvs.

Looking forward to your game and go get em.

	27-04-2004 12:25									#208
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You know vmxa, a few months ago I learned a very useful thing from you: to use one's brain.
Remember AU Total Eternal War Forever and Damn the Torpedoes?
We were 3 to win that AU. Two of us had the 'brilliant' idea of playing it rough (that was the idea, after all). The 3rd one, meaning you, just forgot the 500+ military units and won the game culturally. Clever. Very clever.

I'm doing exactly that. I forgot the military build-up and I'm going for either a diplomatic win or the space race.

Yes, I built Magellan's Voyage, ToE and am 5 turns from Hoover Dam. Things are going moderately well...

	27-04-2004 21:22									#209
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Wow, I never managed to get much more than GL/Zues. I had a few close shots for Leo's, but that is it. No SGL's either.

Once the GL stops, I fall way off the research race, no matter if I have all civs in contact, as I now have. I was toying with the idea of using a palace prebuild to get to another wonder, but have too much to do to risk it.

Trying to bounce the top AI off my land and they have brought in a few other civs. I am holding back my UU trying to get more cities and mines and switch to monarchy before triggering it.

This is a huge map so the cost for research is painful for humans.

	30-04-2004 03:12									#210
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From the Third Holy Book of Civilization:

'Verily, verily, I say unto you, the day is nigh when the voice of peace will thunder down from the snow-capped peaks of a distant land, and the Prophet will cometh forth.
The multitude will follow his footsteps and the new faithful shall tread on the shining path of illumination, exclaiming in rapture: ' Closer to thee, Sid!'

Mountain Sage, the Perfect Peacenik Prophet


Diplomatic win in 1984 AD, and a Perfect Peacenik game too

Attachment: diplo.jpg
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