06-04-2004 01:31									#1
	epic game PBEM with multi-turn-sessions Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

hi there

there are a lot of PBEMs going on at the moment, but i'm sure there are some who havn't got "enough" games running (or none at all).

i want to start a fast PBEM using epic rules (no scenario) and the newest patch (currently 1.22).

my conditions for other players:
A) you can all find time to play for a few times per week (1-3 times) between approx. 18:00 and 24:00 UCT so we can do multi-turn sessions (especially in the beginning when turns are short). at least 1 turn per day must be possible.
B) you are an advanced, but not too good (PBEM) player. i usually play the AI at monarch or emperor and have only played one PBEM so far (and not yet very far either)
C) you feel dedicated to play the game as long as it takes or you're sure someone will take over your place if you have to abandon.

what i thought about, was a standard game with 8 players of which 3 or 4 (more players makes turnsessions difficult) are human. AI difficulty something around monarch.

all other conditions are open

post soon if you fit the profile and feel like such a game.

regards
sabrewolf

	06-04-2004 02:00									#2
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Im interested and am usually online most evenings from 6pm to midnight GMT and later too sometimes. 2 or 3 multi turn sessions a week is not a problem if my times fit in with yours.

	06-04-2004 02:07									#3
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ChrisiusMaximus
yes, you've been quite efficient in our other game so far
and your times seem to match quite well with mine...

	06-04-2004 02:08									#4
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these terms suit me perfectly, so count me in!

my e-mail: eliitmees[AT]merimax.ee
i would like to play for Portugal

	06-04-2004 04:00									#5
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EliitMees, what about your availabilities?

are you around at the times both chrisius and i can do?

and for playing single turn per day games, what would be your favorite time slot? seeing you are in estonia, i guess you'd be before CM and me.

	06-04-2004 10:35									#6
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Since most people have found the new patch(es) to be a WMD, all my PBEMs are stalled. If there are any survivors able to play with 1.22, I'd like to join.

I'll promise at least one turn a day with the rare exception. If UCT is anything like GMT, I can't make your play sessions during the week, though most weekends would work. During the week I usually check for turns around 15:00GMT and 03:00GMT and am up until 6:00 or 8:00GMT.

I'd suggest 4 humans and 4 AIs on a small pangea map with little (40%?) water to give the best chance of a balanced start without any moderating. Continents would be interesting, but the distribution of AIs would probably favor some players over others, especially at emperor.

I'm playing my first SP game at Diety and just holding on. I can't seem to get a PBEM to move along to the point where I find out how good I am. :-(

	06-04-2004 14:09									#7
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well, 1.20 was a fiasko for multiplayers, but PBEM was fine... 1.22 is a quite good version (despite the things still missing)

rommel2d, unfortunatly your times aren't really suitable for this fast pbem. maybe we could parallel start another PBEM which suits you better (1 turn per day)? i'd volunteer to join in

your suggestion to have 4 humans+4 AI on a small map seems to favour rushing too much. and having an AI nearby of which you can capture 3 cities after 30 turns isn't very fair.

btw, i did a few tests. small pangea and standard pangea... standard size gave the more "average" results as you're not so restricted and can find a better location if you wish. the only advantage of small are the denser luxuries (easier to get happiness). but whatever... we can decide this later... what are the other people's opinions?

	06-04-2004 14:10									#8
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is fiasko an english word?

edit: ah, fiasco is the word

Last edited by sabrewolf on 06-04-2004 at 15:42

	06-04-2004 15:44									#9
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I am usually available for playing during the week from 14:00 to 23:00 GMT and can play multiple turns between that time. As for weekends, I can promise at least one turn a day with rare exception.

	07-04-2004 17:47									#10
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(bump)

let's wait a few more days, then begin the game, even if no fourth person shows up...

EliitMees & ChrisiusMaximus:
which world settings would you prefer? or shall we go for random?

	07-04-2004 20:07									#11
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random everything here is fine by me, should we wait for the patch thats supposed to be here soon ?

The one after 1.22 ?

I have 1.22 so can go with that if you like but there is another coming is'nt there ?

	07-04-2004 20:09									#12
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If you guys still want players, I'm game.

	07-04-2004 20:12									#13
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are you sure there's goint to be another one?
1.22 has come out as standalone version.. do you mean this one?

afaik, the beta community is still trying to find out if there's going to be a patch at all (it was planned, but atari is pushing civIV..

	07-04-2004 20:20									#14
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jshelr, you're GMT-5... would you be able to play the mentionned times (your early afternoons until early evenings)?

	07-04-2004 22:09									#15
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2000 GMT to 0800 GMT is my usual times, then again I'm around sometimes earlier, and sometimes later.

I can easily do a few turns a day without problem.

so can i play too?

btw, what about 4 human players, playing 2 civs each?

	07-04-2004 22:24									#16
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i like that idea with 2 AI civs per player a lot!

but then, shouldn't we go for large land mass? or squash in 12 civs on standard (in that case, a 60% water map).

and then i'd recommend getting a neutral person to set up the game that 2 humans don't end up next to each other. (maybe 4 equal sized islands with 1 human+2 AI?).

smellymummy, imho a great idea!

	07-04-2004 22:26									#17
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IIRC, paddy the scott's idea, not mine

	08-04-2004 02:18									#18
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ok, so far we've got the time between 20:00 and 23:00 GMT that suits 4 of us (smellymummy, EliitMees, ChrisiusMaximus and sabrewolf). most start earlier (except smellymummy) and most can do at least an hour longer (except EliitMees).

the currently likely succession would be
EliitMees --> sabrewolf --> ChrisiusMaximus --> smellymummy
or
EliitMees --> ChrisiusMaximus --> sabrewolf --> smellymummy

no answer so far from jshelr. i guess he'd fit in somewhere before CM or me... jshelr, please do answer about your availabilities soon...

to all: could we even have 5 human players or is this overkill? multi-turn sessions could be quite difficult.
so far i can vouch for chrisiusmaximus and smellymummy as i've seen them to be very efficient and reliable with their turns. i havn't been bad so far an never missed out a day's turn, (except when the save came 4 hours late and i was in bed already ).

	08-04-2004 08:54									#19
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf well, 1.20 was a fiasko for multiplayers, but PBEM was fine... 1.22 is a quite good version (despite the things still missing)

Well there's still confusion over upgrading old games and holdouts against moving them to 1.22.

quote: rommel2d, unfortunatly your times aren't really suitable for this fast pbem. maybe we could parallel start another PBEM which suits you better (1 turn per day)? i'd volunteer to join in

I'll take you up on that, but I'm not interested in starting any new games unless all players would be able to check for turns daily. This could mean a maximum of 2-3 days per turn, but hopefully at least 1 per day on most days. Availability to do play sessions on the occasional weekend (evenings GMT/UCT) would be good, too.

quote: your suggestion to have 4 humans+4 AI on a small map seems to favour rushing too much. and having an AI nearby of which you can capture 3 cities after 30 turns isn't very fair.

My thought was that a small map with 40% ocean would have at least as much land as a standard at 70% (3840 vs 3000 land tiles). Plenty of room for 8 tribes to grow and develop.

Alexman offered an explanation for the stated 40% ocean condition of the MPTournament.biq: less chance of someone starting on a peninsula and being stuck with a remote palace. This sounds like the most likely explanation to me. Unfortantely, I've been unable to test it out. When generating maps with MPTournament, I'm only given the options of 60-70-80 for oceans, and it is pretty clear the results are not 40%. Am I generating maps wrong, or is this feature missing from 1.22? Is it possible Jesse meant 40% land, not ocean?

	08-04-2004 09:04									#20
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf i like that idea with 2 AI civs per player a lot! but then, shouldn't we go for large land mass? or squash in 12 civs on standard (in that case, a 60% water map).

I know I'm not in on this one, but I think the idea was no AIs, each human plays 2 civs for 8 total.

Can you play MP with more than 8 tribes using a mod or something?

	08-04-2004 12:49									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Rommel2D I know I'm not in on this one, but I think the idea was no AIs, each human plays 2 civs for 8 total.

ah, now i get it! (after rereading smellymummy's post)
well, i that case i don't like the proposal as much as before because imho the AI is nice for tech trading, etc. in MP games you're often locked centuries in wars and diplomacy agreements and trade contracts against the other humans hardly ever get done (is it even possible in PBEM?).

quote: Can you play MP with more than 8 tribes using a mod or something?

i don't think so. iirc, multiplaying is limited to 8 human players, maybe even 8 players in total.


2 civs per player sounds good if you want to have a more likely chance of a good start. i'm worried because i can imagine the turns per day going down with this.
what do the others think?

	08-04-2004 12:54									#22
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in the other game I'm in that's 2 civs per player.. it's pretty much just as fast. it's still very early though.

imo, the AI sucks, and if a player starts near one, the more likely that player can take advantage of the AI cheats. Not that I'm against having AI, with or without, suits me fine.

I just want to play

	08-04-2004 12:54									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Rommel2D My thought was that a small map with 40% ocean would have at least as much land as a standard at 70% (3840 vs 3000 land tiles). Plenty of room for 8 tribes to grow and develop.

are you sure it's 40% water?
i think it's 40%, 30%, 20% land (and therefor 60%, 70%, 80% water). i've never seen 40% water (=60% land!).

btw: a standard map has a total of 50'000 tiles (100*100/2), small maps have 32'000 (=80x80/2). your number seem a bit too low.

	08-04-2004 20:50									#24
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From the current MPTournament.biq:

quote: v1.18 Changes: No Scientific Leaders, Retain Culture on Capture, 40% ocean,

From the 1.22 readme:

quote: * MPTournament: Map sets Oceans to 40%

When playing with the editor, I don't see a 40% option listed, but when I've checked into it before, I've been told MPTournament.biq has special, uneditable features.

Again, I think the theory is that with a high percentage of land, the odds of being stuck on a peninsula or isthmus at the start are less.

quote: btw: a standard map has a total of 50'000 tiles (100*100/2), small maps have 32'000 (=80x80/2). your number seem a bit too low.

You've added an extra 0 to your numbers. If dividing by two is how you get the total for an isometric map, the figures would be 1500 land tiles on standard with 70% ocean vs. 1920 tiles on small with 40%.

	09-04-2004 13:05									#25
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so what are we playing here and are we ready to go

	09-04-2004 20:17									#26
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well, the 2 others (jsheld and elliot) have been quiet for quite some time. i thought we'd give them a day or two to answer or otherwise start without them.

what are we going to play? well... your opinion counts too... what would you want/suggest?

	09-04-2004 20:27									#27
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I like big maps the bigger the better and I like archipelogo's especially.

I like the seafaring civs and particulary Byzantines. My favourite civ is Rome but I know its not the best civ in the game.

we could play all one trait or two civs each x 4 players.

Im really easy though as I just want to play mostly. I dont mind random everything for a challenge.

	10-04-2004 00:01									#28
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so if i understand you correctly, you want something like this:
large map, archipelago, you playing byzantines and romans.
right?

and what do you mean with play all on trait? everyone eg. having seafaring civs?

to me one thing is important: i want a few AI civs who make our lives a bit different. if we play small, standard or large doesn't really matter (but just not huge or tiny).

i prefer randomness so you really don't know where you are and what civs to take (eg. expansionist sucks on archipelagio but rules on pangea). as a matter of fact, i wouldn't even mind 100% random stuff (even our civs), but i can imagine that you guys wouldn't agree on that

	10-04-2004 00:09									#29
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Totally random is OK with me, and I like to have AI too

	10-04-2004 00:18									#30
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all random and 4 AI civs is good too

standard, or large map size though?