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Jaguar is offline Jaguar
King
Montgomery County, MD
Apr 2000
time: 00:35
  Old Post 11-04-2004 22:26
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quote:
Originally posted by joncha
ok, you win Jaguar. Clinton and Bush both suck.

You do realize that you conceded defeat for somebody else, don't you?


I believe that neither Clinton nor Bush were at all prepared. However, they cannot really be blamed.

"Bin Laden determined to attack inside US"

A terrorist who hates America wants to attack America? Oh my ****ing God, what a newsflash! Obviously this wasn't true until August-September 2001, so Bush should have increased security then.

oedo is offline oedo
Prince
and the revolution
Feb 2000
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  Old Post 11-04-2004 23:40 Visit oedo's homepage!
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One interesting fact about the memo is that the page numbers at the bottom are blacked out. An article in the german magazine "Die Zeit" mentioned the 08/06 PDB already more than one year ago. It said

quote:
Crawford, 6. August 2001. US-Präsident George W. Bush macht Urlaub. Den ganzen Monat will er auf seiner Ranch in Texas verbringen. Jeden Morgen steht aber weiterhin das "Presidential Daily Brief" auf dem Programm. Im "PDB", wie es im CIA-Jargon heißt, wird dem Präsidenten von hochrangigen CIA-Mitarbeitern die Sicherheitslage dargelegt. An diesem Morgen unterrichtet der CIA-Direktor persönlich den Präsidenten. Sein PDB-Papier hat statt der sonst üblichen zwei bis drei diesmal elfeinhalb bedruckte Seiten und trägt die Überschrift Bin Laden Determined to Strike in U. S. Der CIA-Chef führt darin aus, dass al-Qaida dazu übergegangen sei, auch innerhalb der USA Anschläge durchführen zu wollen, und sich vermutlich längst Mitglieder der Terrororganisation in den Vereinigten Staaten befänden. Es ist nicht sicher, ob der CIA-Direktor den US-Präsidenten über die Aussagen von verhafteten Al-Qaida-Mitgliedern informiert. Nach ihren Darstellungen denke die Terrororganisation schon seit längerem darüber nach, Flugzeuge zu entführen, um sie als Raketen zu benutzen.
http://www.zeit.de/archiv/2002/41/2...dungspannen.xml

The bolded part says this PDB (titled with...) had 11 1/2 pages instead of the usual 2-3 pages a PDB usually has. That would mean that 10 pages of this PDB are still classified.

I'm also wondering what to do with Condoleeza now for saying under oath, that this PDB would contain no warning. This (declassyfied part of the) memo actually contained warnings as it contains references to other secret service sources. So Condoleeza misspoke again?

joncha is offline joncha
Emperor
North of FOPOG
Jan 2003
time: 21:35
  Old Post 11-04-2004 23:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior

You do realize that you conceded defeat for somebody else, don't you?



Doesn't bother me in the least.

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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Mar 2000
time: 23:35
  Old Post 12-04-2004 00:16
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quote:
APRIL 10--Under pressure from the September 11 commission, the White House today declassified and released an intelligence digest given to President George W. Bush weeks before the 2001 terrorist attacks. The confidential President's Daily Brief (PDB) for August 6, 2001 contained a two-page section entitled "Bin Ladin Determined to Strike in US," and refers to possible hijacking attempts by Osama bin Laden disciples and the existence of about 70 FBI investigations into alleged al-Qaeda cells operating within the United States. The August 6 PDB, an excerpt from which you'll find below, was presented to Bush while he vacationed at his ranch in Crawford, Texas. The digest is prepared by the Central Intelligence Agency, an official from which briefs the president on the report's contents. While Bush critics have described the August 6 PDB as a warning of an impending al-Qaeda attack, Condoleezza Rice, Bush's national security adviser, testified Thursday that the document contained "historical information based on old reporting. There was no new threat information." (2 pages)


It was part of a much larger memo including other topics.

Considering that some were predicting WAR WITH CHINA just a few months earlier, that shouldn't be unexpected.

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 00:17
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BTW Chegitz, exactly what are you saying Dr. Rice lied about?

oedo is offline oedo
Prince
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 00:28 Visit oedo's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Monk
It was part of a much larger memo including other topics.

Remember the title of the memo was "Bin Ladin determined to strike in US", not ""Bin Ladin determined to strike in US and other topics":

quote:
BEN-VENISTE. Isn't it a fact, Dr. Rice, that the Aug. 6 P.D.B. warned against possible attacks in this country? And I ask you whether you recall the title of that P.D.B.
RICE. I believe the title was Bin Laden Determined To Attack Inside the United States. Now, the P.D.B. -
BEN-VENISTE. Thank you.


That's what also my article said: The whole memo was titled with "bin Ladin determined...".

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 00:38
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How did Ben-Veniste know? Obviously, he had already seen the memo in question. Is he, or anyone else on the committee, complaining about the unreleased sections?

oedo is offline oedo
Prince
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Feb 2000
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 00:44 Visit oedo's homepage!
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No, they're certainly on Easter vacation yet.

But it's most interesting that a German magazine knew the title of that memo already in '02.

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 00:48
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quote:
I'm also wondering what to do with Condoleeza now for saying under oath, that this PDB would contain no warning. This (declassyfied part of the) memo actually contained warnings as it contains references to other secret service sources. So Condoleeza misspoke again?



What actionable warning was there? The last few lines say that the FBI and CIA are on top of the situation and already taking action.

All the specifics mentioned are already three years old at the time the memo was put out. (Davout, that seems pretty "historical" to me)

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 00:53
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quote:
Originally posted by oedo
No, they're certainly on Easter vacation yet.


As if politicians would let a holiday get in the way of a soundbyte.

quote:
But it's most interesting that a German magazine knew the title of that memo already in '02.


quote:
FLASHBACK: May 27, 2002
Graham: We Had Same Info as Bush
by David Freddoso
Posted Apr 9, 2004

Editor's note: This article orginally appeared on the cover of the May 27, 2002, issue of HUMAN EVENTS.]

Sen. Bob Graham (D.-Fla.), chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, told HUMAN EVENTS May 21 that his committee had received all the same terrorism intelligence prior to September 11 as the Bush administration.

"Yes, we had seen all the information," said Graham. "But we didn't see it on a single piece of paper, the way the President did."

Graham added that threats of hijacking in an August 6 memo to President Bush were based on very old intelligence that the committee had seen earlier. "The particular report that was in the President's Daily Briefing that day was about three years old," Graham said. "It was not a contemporary piece of information."

Graham's comments contradicted combative statements made recently by the Democratic congressional leadership, and confirmed White House assertions that the only specific threats of al Qaeda hijackings known to the President before September 11 came from a memo dating back to the Clinton Administration


http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=3558

Not really.

oedo is offline oedo
Prince
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Feb 2000
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 01:02 Visit oedo's homepage!
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Now, appearantly Condoleeza had a hard time avoiding an open lie in front of the comission. And most likely she will get away with what she said. I don't really care if she will be put on trial for what she said or not.
I want to know what happened in 911, before, during and after that attacks. I want to know who are the "weak links" in the administration and why they're still in power. Also I want to know if the attacks were a foreseeable desaster and if some people in the administration or the secret service decided to just let it happen on pupose or not.

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 01:04
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Again: What lie?

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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Mar 2000
time: 23:35
  Old Post 12-04-2004 01:05
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Most of the weak links were in the Clinton holdovers in the FBI.

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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Mar 2000
time: 23:35
  Old Post 12-04-2004 01:14
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quote:
Originally posted by DAVOUT


Rather than having the memo disclosed, the commission should have asked : Is there any reference to the WTC in the memo?


Oh -- and thank you for asking this question.

The answer is simple: They never expected the Bush Administration tocomply.

The release of such a memo, like the public hearing of the National Security Advisor, sets a precedent no administration would normally agree to. They expected the Bush Administration to object, and delay, and fight this thing, just like the Rice hearing, and so drag this entire mess weeks or months closer to election day, while making Bush look more suspect.

Bush outsmarted them by rolling right over.

oedo is offline oedo
Prince
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Feb 2000
time: 05:35
  Old Post 12-04-2004 01:34 Visit oedo's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Monk Again: What lie?

Again, I don't really care if Condi lied or not when she said, this PDB contained no warning. If the president was warned before and the memo would contain nothing, but information the goverment already knew before, then it truly wasn't a warning. The actual warning would have been made before this PDB then.

That, however,would provide that the president already knew even before 08/06 that AQ was planning attacks inside the USA and that preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York were going on.

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
Emperor
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Jan 1970
time: 05:35
  Old Post 12-04-2004 01:35
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quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Bush outsmarted them by rolling right over.


It was clever, but I sincerely doubt it was Bush's who came up with it.

DAVOUT is offline DAVOUT
King
AUERSTADT
Jun 2002
time: 05:35
  Old Post 12-04-2004 01:43
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quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Monk


Oh -- and thank you for asking this question.




The WTC is mentionned in the first paragraph.

quote:

Bin Laden implied in US television interviews in 1997 and 1998 that his followers would follow the example of World Trade Center bomber Ramzi Yousef and "bring the fighting to America".


The report has either been prepared further to a specific request from a top executive (or even Condi Rice or the President), or spontaneously prepared by Clark. In both cases it shows that the admin was seriously concerned about Bin Laden, nobody believing that memos *for the President only* can be lightly issued. So I dont understand why the admin preferred to say that the President receives useless reports from unreliable executives.

As for historical, this adjective refer to events that are not only past but settled, which cannot be the case for three years old events relating to a terrorist threat.

DAVOUT is offline DAVOUT
King
AUERSTADT
Jun 2002
time: 05:35
  Old Post 12-04-2004 02:08
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quote:

BBC : Key points of 9/11 testimony
...
Following 11 September 2001 attacks, none of Mr Bush's advisers counselled doing anything against Iraq, the focus was on Afghanistan.
...


Bob Woodward, in Bush at war, writes that on September 12, the National Security Council had two meetings. During the second one, D. Rumsfeld raised the question of Iraq; he asked why the US would attack only Al-Qaida and not Iraq. And he made the assumption that they could take advantage of the opportunity offered by the terrorists attacks to attack Saddam immediately.

If Woodward described faithfully the meeting, on this point at least Condi Rice lied to the Commission.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:35
  Old Post 12-04-2004 21:08 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Monk
BTW Chegitz, exactly what are you saying Dr. Rice lied about?


See DrosDar's post on the first page of this thread. Partially I am engaging in the same sort of behavior as those who similarly disparaged Dick Clarke. According to DrosDar's links, however, I am also correct.

The diplomat is offline The diplomat
King
Terre Haute, IN USA
Sep 1999
time: 23:35
  Old Post 12-04-2004 21:23
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quote:
Originally posted by DAVOUT


Bob Woodward, in Bush at war, writes that on September 12, the National Security Council had two meetings. During the second one, D. Rumsfeld raised the question of Iraq; he asked why the US would attack only Al-Qaida and not Iraq. And he made the assumption that they could take advantage of the opportunity offered by the terrorists attacks to attack Saddam immediately.

If Woodward described faithfully the meeting, on this point at least Condi Rice lied to the Commission.


How did Condi lie? She said that they discussed Iraq but decided to focus on Afghanistan. From Woodward's book, this is indeed what happened. Rumsfeld brought up Iraq, and it was discussed, but it was decided to focus on Afghanistan.

Ramo is offline Ramo
King
Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:35
  Old Post 12-04-2004 21:25 Visit Ramo's homepage!
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On NPR, Clarke said that Condi basically agreed with him on the facts, but disagreed with him on interpretation (which once again demonstrates, BTW, that Clarke is a rabid partisan that can't be trusted ).

DAVOUT is offline DAVOUT
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 21:45
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quote:
Originally posted by The diplomat


How did Condi lie? She said that they discussed Iraq but decided to focus on Afghanistan. From Woodward's book, this is indeed what happened. Rumsfeld brought up Iraq, and it was discussed, but it was decided to focus on Afghanistan.


Condi Rice said :
quote:

none of Mr Bush's advisers counselled doing anything against Iraq, the focus was on Afghanistan.


In this sentence, CR is not stating about the NSC conclusions, but about advisors counsels. D.Rumsfeld clearly, the day following 9/11, was focusing on Iraq as much, or even more on Iraq than on Afganistan.

As I dont believe that Rumsfeld opinion was ignored by Rice, particularly when expressed during an official meeting of the NSC, I am obliged to conclude that C.Rice lied.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
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Dec 1999
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 21:55
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Focusing on Iraq and advocating action against them are two different things.

The day after 9/11 things were very murky. The intel was coming in and the subject was still out there whether Iraq had any involvemnt.

No discrepany IMO.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
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quote:
Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Focusing on Iraq and advocating action against them are two different things.


You are mkising the point. She was asked a direct question. She gave an answer which was contrary to the facts as she knew them. Hence, she lied.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 22:02
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I don't see it that way. Raising the question is posing a set of actions that allows for a group consensus. How strongly did Rummy advise teh course of action? Was it a simple "What do you think?" or was it a "We should do this now while we have the chance!"

Two different framings of the subject. In the first I would say it is not an advocacy of action, hence not lie.

You know the definition of "is".

GePap is offline GePap
King
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Nov 2001
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 22:03
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Set willy free!

re: aggie

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 22:03
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If it was known that Rumsfeld did raise the issue of Iraq on 12/9, why was Rice's comment that no-one counselled on action on Iraq not questioned there and then at the Commission Inquiry?

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Ah, but Rummy did say we should go after Iraq.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 22:19
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You got your commie spy bug planted in the situation room again. How was the issue raised?

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
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You conservatives have such short memories.

 
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