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Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 22:24
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Its the lack of atmosphere and massive CO2 concentrations.

DAVOUT is offline DAVOUT
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 22:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
You got your commie spy bug planted in the situation room again. How was the issue raised?


Bob Woodward

Bush at war

Chapter 4

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
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Dec 1999
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 22:36
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I again go back to my previous discussion.

"Bob Woodward, in Bush at war, writes that on September 12, the National Security Council had two meetings. During the second one, D. Rumsfeld raised the question of Iraq; he asked why the US would attack only Al-Qaida and not Iraq. And he made the assumption that they could take advantage of the opportunity offered by the terrorists attacks to attack Saddam immediately."


Raising the question is not the same thing as advocacy. Do you have a better quote from the book?

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 22:37
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quote:
Ah, but Rummy did say we should go after Iraq



Is that accepted, known or thought to be true by the Commission?

I ask because I really would like to know why they didn't furrow their brows when Rice said something contrary to that.

joncha is offline joncha
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 22:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
I again go back to my previous discussion.

"Bob Woodward, in Bush at war, writes that on September 12, the National Security Council had two meetings. During the second one, D. Rumsfeld raised the question of Iraq; he asked why the US would attack only Al-Qaida and not Iraq. And he made the assumption that they could take advantage of the opportunity offered by the terrorists attacks to attack Saddam immediately."


Raising the question is not the same thing as advocacy. Do you have a better quote from the book?


I bolded the relevant sentence for you.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 22:38 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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Dr. Rice said a lot of something's like that. Follow DrosDar's links on the first page of this thread.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 22:39
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That still does not make a case for advocacy. It is a statement of opinion/fact.

joncha is offline joncha
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 22:41
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*sigh*

So if I said, "We could rob a bank..." and then we just happen to rob one, I wasn't advocating it before???

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 22:45
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Depends.

Did you make a case for robbing the bank because you could get away with it? Or did you legally go into the bank and shut them down for malfeasance?

joncha is offline joncha
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 22:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Depends.

Did you make a case for robbing the bank because you could get away with it? Or did you legally go into the bank and shut them down for malfeasance?


I didn't realise I had that power... or the US had that jurisdiction over Iraq.

If, in our analogy, a private citizen (or another bank!) took it upon themselves to walk into a bank and shut it down for any reason, there would be nothing legal about it.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 23:01
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quote:
Originally posted by joncha


I didn't realise I had that power... or the US had that jurisdiction over Iraq.

If, in our analogy, a private citizen (or another bank!) took it upon themselves to walk into a bank and shut it down for any reason, there would be nothing legal about it.


Depends on what your weapon is. Legal guns for hire to shut down the bank are not unheard of.

joncha is offline joncha
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 23:15
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Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 23:18
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joncha is offline joncha
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 23:20
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Well, it was either that or ...although I suppose would have worked as well.

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
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  Old Post 13-04-2004 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Dr. Rice said a lot of something's like that. Follow DrosDar's links on the first page of this thread.


Maybe I'm not following correctly. So Rice said many things that are potentially untruths, potentially meaning she purjured herself, but the commission didn't get its teeth into her over those issues. That makes things seem even more odd to me.

Or did they cite the contrary evidence, but it did so ham-fistedly that the media in general have said that she acquitted herself well?

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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  Old Post 13-04-2004 00:30
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Note the crickets chirping among the Democrats and the press -- that says it all about how well she did.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
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  Old Post 13-04-2004 00:32
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No news is good news. Which of course is bad new for the Dems.

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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  Old Post 13-04-2004 00:34
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Oh...and about Clarke...

quote:
Clarke book has errors about arrest of Ahmed Ressam

By Mike Carter
Seattle Times staff reporter

The Terrorist Within: A closer look at Ahmed Ressam


Was it "shaking trees" or shaking knees that led to the arrest of convicted millennium terrorist Ahmed Ressam?
As former White House counterterrorism chief Richard Clarke tells it in his book "Against All Enemies," an international alert to be on the lookout for terrorists played a role in Ressam's capture at a Port Angeles ferry terminal in December 1999, his car loaded with bomb-making material.

But national-security adviser Condoleezza Rice, in her testimony before the Sept. 11 commission last week, discounted Clarke's version and credited a savvy U.S. customs agent, Diana Dean.

Dean stopped Ressam because "she sniffed something about Ressam. They saw that something was wrong" — not because of some security alert, Rice testified.

The debate over Ressam's capture encapsulates the controversy between Clarke and the Bush administration over which president — Clinton or Bush — took the threat of al-Qaida more seriously, and whether either administration did enough before the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

Disputing Clarke's claim, Rice testified customs agents "weren't actually on alert."

At least one of the agents who helped apprehend Ressam sides with Rice's version of events.

Moreover, others involved in the Ressam case say Clarke's book contains factual errors and wrongly implies national-security officials knew of Ressam's plan to set a bomb at Los Angeles International Airport long before they actually did.

"I've found the exchange over Ressam one of the more interesting aspects of this debate," said Michael O'Hanlon, a senior fellow in foreign-policy studies and homeland security at the Brookings Institution in Washington, D.C. "This whole 'shaking-the-trees' concept has become fascinating," he said, referring to the notion that law enforcement was on the lookout for terrorists.

Ressam's arrest came on President Clinton's watch. Early that month, Clarke wrote in his book, the United States had learned terrorists linked to Osama bin Laden were planning as many as 15 attacks on Americans worldwide as the millennium approached.

Clarke, who worked for both Clinton and Bush, said he convened the Counter-terrorism Security Group, which he chaired, and sent out warnings both overseas and to local, state and federal law-enforcement agencies around the country to be on heightened alert for suspicious activity. "And then we waited," he wrote.




"The break came in an unlikely location," Clarke wrote, describing Ressam's arrest by customs agents during a "routine screening."

According to a former customs agent who was involved, Clarke's version, laid out in one chapter of his book, wrongly implies they were on "heightened alert" and somehow looking for terrorists.

"No," was the terse reply of Michael Chapman, one of the customs agents who arrested Ressam, when asked if he was aware of a security alert.

"We were on no more alert than we're always on. That is a matter of public record," said Chapman, now a Clallam County commissioner.

A review of the trial testimony of Chapman, Dean and two other U.S. customs agents involved in the arrest turned up no reference to a security alert.

Rather, it supports Chapman's assessment that agents thought Ressam was smuggling drugs when they opened the trunk of his rental car and found bags of white powder buried in the spare-tire well. Only after finding several plastic black boxes, containing watches wired to circuit boards, did anyone suspect a bomb.

Dean has said repeatedly she singled Ressam out for a closer look because he was nervous, fumbling and sweating. Ressam has since told agents he was sick, and federal sources have confirmed Ressam had apparently gotten malaria while at terrorist-training camps in Afghanistan.

Clarke's version of that night contains other errors. Some of them are minor. But one implies national-security officials knew more about Ressam's plans than they could have at the time:

• Clarke wrote that Ressam bolted and left his car on the ferry. In fact, Ressam drove off the ferry and ran when he was stopped for inspection.

• Clarke reported Dean ran after Ressam. Actually, two other agents gave chase.

• More significantly, Clarke wrote that agents had found "explosives and a map of the Los Angeles International Airport" in the car, implying the threat to the airport was known almost immediately.

There was no map in the car. A map of Greater Los Angeles was found days later in Ressam's apartment in Montreal. Nobody had a clue for nearly 11 months that Los Angeles was a target.

Circles scrawled on the map around three L.A.-area airports weren't found until October 2000, after the document had been turned over to the FBI. It wasn't until Ressam began cooperating in May 2001 that his actual target was known for sure.

In fact, in the weeks after Ressam's capture, officials in Seattle were so unsure about his actual target that then-Mayor Paul Schell canceled the city's popular New Year's Eve celebration at Seattle Center, thinking the Space Needle could be a target.

• Clarke reported Canadians had somehow "missed" the existence of Ressam's cell of radical Algerian Muslims in Montreal and that, after Ressam's arrest, the Canadian government cooperated.

According to testimony at Ressam's trial and interviews with Canadian intelligence officials, Ressam and the cell in Montreal had been under surveillance for at least two years before Ressam's arrest. But the Canadian Security Intelligence Service never told anyone.

U.S. prosecutors have complained bitterly about Canada's foot-dragging as the Ressam case proceeded. Canadian prosecutors blocked U.S. access to at least one crucial witness — an Algerian who gave Ressam a gun and talked about blowing up Jews in Montreal.

Indeed, the U.S. came within hours of dropping charges against Ressam on the eve of his March 2001 trial because the Canadian government attempted to withdraw the witnesses.

King County Superior Court Judge Steven Gonzalez, who, in 2001, was one of three federal prosecutors who tried Ressam in Los Angeles, agreed some of Clarke's assertions "are not consistent with the evidence at trial."

Martha Levin, a publicist at Free Press, the Simon & Schuster subsidiary that published "Against All Enemies," said Clarke had no comment about the errors. "Free Press makes it a policy not to discuss internal editorial processes," she said.

Another Brookings scholar, Stephen Hess, a senior fellow on governmental studies and an authority on Washington and the media, said errors in memoirs are not unusual or particularly significant unless they affect the broader point or conclusion the author is drawing.

"So it's hard to say what the significance of these errors are," Hess added. "Whether you agree with him or not, I don't think anybody has accused Dick Clarke of being sloppy."

And Clarke's conclusion remains valid. Al-Qaida, he wrote, was here — and actively attempting to attack the United States.



Poor Clarke. They're going to make him refund all his book money at this rate.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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quote:
Originally posted by Dauphin
Maybe I'm not following correctly.


You'll have to figure that out for yourself when you read the links.

As far as crickets chirping, the media takes its cue from Washington, and the Democrats tak their cue from the people around Kerry, and he's too cowardly to attack the Prez. So it's unlikely we're gonna see anything made about Rice's "misstatements of fact." She performed well, and since the tv likes form over substance, that's all she wrote.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
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  Old Post 13-04-2004 00:47
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Was the book ghost written by Jason Blair?

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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  Old Post 13-04-2004 00:56 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Was the book ghost written by Jason Blair?


Which one, Rice's answers to the Commission? Must have been considering everything she made up.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
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  Old Post 13-04-2004 00:58
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Rice has a book out? Cool finally the truth.

GePap is offline GePap
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  Old Post 13-04-2004 01:04
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What I find pathetic is that 4 bullet point mistakes on one incident are found-and of course, it means the book its all lies! And of course, this on the same thread we are discussin whether bringing up Iraq is the same as giving advice on...

Please.

Either challenge the core of Clarkes accussation, or give it up.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
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Oct 2001
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  Old Post 13-04-2004 06:14
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Yet another example of why one should never underestimate the tendency for pinkos to focus ad nauseum on issues that have no traction with the public...

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
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  Old Post 13-04-2004 06:32
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... or any other overly opinionated people, for that matter.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
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  Old Post 13-04-2004 06:34
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Quiet, you!

You're ruining my troll with your reasonable opinion...

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
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  Old Post 13-04-2004 06:37
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Oops. Sorry.

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
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  Old Post 13-04-2004 06:46 Visit Alexander's Horse's homepage!
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troll

Datajack Franit is offline Datajack Franit
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  Old Post 13-04-2004 22:13 Visit Datajack Franit's homepage!
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quote:
Hey, are you trying out for the Italian Fez role?


NO WAY

Giancarlo (Fez, whatever) I am a gay republican, sounds strange isn't it?

Most of the times I am tempted about becoming a democrat I think:

is it better for myself to live in a country that supports gay rights and ecology or national security and people incomes?

And about Israel:

what would they do to me in Israel?
what would they do to me in Palestine?


Think about it

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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  Old Post 13-04-2004 22:17 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Yet another example of why one should never underestimate the tendency for pinkos to focus ad nauseum on issues that have no traction with the public...


You mean like Bush's desertion? I was flogging that sucker for a year, and low and behold, it becomes an issue. Not saying I caused it, but face facts, if we keep shoutng the truth long enough, someone might accidentally pay attention.

 
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