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Inverse Icarus
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flying too low to the ground
May 2001
time: 00:35
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... I don't like this. Not one bit.
Please only post correspondence in the thread.
Last edited by Lord Nuclear on 26-06-2004 at 05:07
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conmcb25
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Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:35
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Quick chat with PAL to "catch up".
quote:
conmcb25: You there?
PTAGuildmaster: yep
PTAGuildmaster: sup?
conmcb25: Is everything OK?
conmcb25: I have been out of touch recently
PTAGuildmaster: as far as I know....? :: peers at you::
PTAGuildmaster: ah okay
conmcb25: Did the Philo research misunderstanding get resolved sufficiently as far as you are concerned?
PTAGuildmaster: yeah, and we smacked our CDG ambassador in the head
conmcb25: Good
conmcb25: How about us?
conmcb25: Do we owe you any information?
PTAGuildmaster: ::think::
conmcb25: You happy with the attack CDG plan thus far?
PTAGuildmaster: Well, according to your original guess Math is due sometime soon?
PTAGuildmaster: Yeah, the longer they dork around in 2 cities the better
PTAGuildmaster: hehe
conmcb25: Ill check math wait one.
PTAGuildmaster: gotta think they're doing something weird to still be in two cities, but I wouldn't hazard a guess as to what
conmcb25: They are not the best team in the world....... ;-)
conmcb25: Math in three from 1675BC (I think)
conmcb25: Lemme double check
PTAGuildmaster: yar, cool. bold and all
conmcb25: Hmmm, I wonder how I got to bold????
conmcb25: BRB
conmcb25: Yep confirmed, three turns from 1675 BC
conmcb25: And you guys are researching Horseback riding?
PTAGuildmaster: no
PTAGuildmaster: because we already gave it to you
PTAGuildmaster: I was brainfarting
PTAGuildmaster: I sent Togas another note
PTAGuildmaster: didn't he send that one out?
conmcb25: Hmm not sure Im catching up
conmcb25: RL was hell last week.
PTAGuildmaster: oh? what happened?
conmcb25: work obligations vs kid obligations vs my wife still being whacked out because of her dada
conmcb25: Only so many hours in the day
PTAGuildmaster: argh
conmcb25: :-)
conmcb25: So what are you guys researching?
PTAGuildmaster: Map Making
PTAGuildmaster: We're going to sail the seven seas and wear spiffing tights
conmcb25: How many turns to MM?
conmcb25: He He
PTAGuildmaster: 8 I believe
conmcb25: OK cool
conmcb25: Did anyone ever ask you about that lndmass to our east?
conmcb25: Did you ever explore it?
PTAGuildmaster: it's moderate in size
conmcb25: Iland?
conmcb25: Island?
PTAGuildmaster: no, connected
PTAGuildmaster: we sent two warriors down to check it out
conmcb25: To our continent?
PTAGuildmaster: even mix of terrain, nothing special
PTAGuildmaster: yeah, it's SE of your warrior
conmcb25: OK wait one
conmcb25: OK I saw the screenies.
conmcb25: I cant see the connection but I can believe its connected to us, it makes sense
PTAGuildmaster: can you see Wtibia?
conmcb25: No I dont think so
PTAGuildmaster: it's the city near Grog, I think
PTAGuildmaster: land mass connects SE of there, continous mass
conmcb25: I see the warning and some of the jungle to the south and east of it.
conmcb25: Jesus
PTAGuildmaster: hmm?
conmcb25: Nothing but swamp and jungle south of The Warning
PTAGuildmaster: welcome to the Mayan jungle. ;-)
conmcb25: He he
PTAGuildmaster: it extends for a moderate ways
PTAGuildmaster: tapers off in the lower half of the continent, across from CDG
conmcb25: Have you guys gotten to the eastern shore of that "pennisula"?
conmcb25: Any likely crossings?
PTAGuildmaster: only in the SE
PTAGuildmaster: and not by boat
conmcb25: So no possible crossing yet then.?
PTAGuildmaster: dunno. we'll probably put a boat or two in the water post-Maps, though I don't know where or when yet
conmcb25: OK
conmcb25: We were thinking that "landmass'ight be an island and a route to the other continent
conmcb25: Obviously thats wrong :-)
PTAGuildmaster: nyet, no chance of that unless the other continent pokes across
conmcb25: Roger that
conmcb25: Are you still the "official" apoly ambasador?
PTAGuildmaster: yep
conmcb25: OK
PTAGuildmaster: as far as I know, I haven't unappointed myself
conmcb25: And you obviously won the second election as the head of Ladderitedom, correct?
PTAGuildmaster: unanimous, no less. Crazy bastards
conmcb25: He He
conmcb25: I have an idea.
conmcb25: Lets trade who is who in the various positions
PTAGuildmaster: arungh?
conmcb25: Then lets try and get some cross conversation going.
PTAGuildmaster: oh
PTAGuildmaster: 'righto
PTAGuildmaster: Heroic- MoI
PTAGuildmaster: Alski-MoW
conmcb25: MoI is interior?
PTAGuildmaster: yah
conmcb25: OK
conmcb25: Foriegn affairs?
PTAGuildmaster: Cobra
conmcb25: Anyone else?
conmcb25: Do you have a deputy?
PTAGuildmaster: MoInt is Maxfin
conmcb25: Maxfin?
PTAGuildmaster: Quasi-VP-who-is-largely-uninvolved - MotownDennis
PTAGuildmaster: yes
conmcb25: Whats Maxfin?
PTAGuildmaster: Minister Intelligence
conmcb25: Ah, OK
conmcb25: Here is ours:
conmcb25: Current Government
Consul OctavianX (Voting for this consular seat starts September 8th)
Consul Donegeal (Voting for this consular seat starts August 8th)
Consul Togas (Nominations for this consular seat are open; voting starts July 8th)
Vice Consul and Minister of Information Kloreep (Appointed)
Minister of the Interior GodKing (Appointed)
Deputy Minister of the Interior Krill (Appointed)
Minister of Defense UberKruX (Appointed)
Minister of Foreign Affairs conmcb25 (Elected)
Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs Beta (Appointed)
conmcb25: I guess I will remain the ambassador for right now.
PTAGuildmaster: the MoFR likely to eject you? ;-)
conmcb25: If he had half a brain he would ;-)
conmcb25: Ok thats all I can think of, can you think of anything else we need to discuss?
PTAGuildmaster: nope, life is good
conmcb25: Ok then Im going back to catch up, Ill be on for about another 90 minutes if you need anything :-)
PTAGuildmaster: I'll probably be gone shortly
conmcb25: OK good talking to you again, its been a while :-)
PTAGuildmaster: Yeah - sorry I'm distracted, ten things at once at the moment
conmcb25: No problem, CYA :-) |
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conmcb25
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Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:35
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Sent to PAL
quote:
F-P
This is answer to your email inquiry a few days ago:
By the way quite a few of us appreciate the little love notes you send in the save emails. A few guys have mentioned that in the forums. 
OK the official part:
"Hail to our gracious allies, the Ladderites!
You are not the only ones with a little bit of information to share.
We currently possess Mathematics, if you are interested in recieving it. Additionally, we'll have researched Philosophy in about ten turns. However please hold off on sending us map making for right now. We eventually want it and need it of course but for right now holding off on getting the tech will only make our deception plan with CDG a lot easier.We encourage you to do the same on mathematics, but for the sake of good relations we will send it along if you dont want to hold off on it. This by the way is probably a topic both teams need to discuss in the future. And we are thinking the post CDG/ we have encountered the other continents scenario. There may come a time when we have a tech lead and we deliberately hold back techs from one another so we dont make it easier for the other guys to research. Then as we know they have researched a tech we then gift it to one another. As you know the more civs that know a tech, the more it gets discounted. I just bring this up now, because it maybe something we will eventually need to discuss in the future.
As for Ur, well, we know about as much as you. It's probable that they labor on some sort of Great Wonder.
CDG has in fact been active. We recently noticed a drop of one pop in Zarigueya, and two in Minnesota. They founded a new city last turn, south of Minnesota, named Possumopolis (and I thought we had boring city names...).
We are always glad to hear from our northerly neighbors, the grand People's Army. Please, keep in touch!
conmcb25
Foreign Affairs Minister and Ambassador to PAL for Apolyton " |
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conmcb25
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Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:35
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quick talk with Fr (OAL) tinight
quote:
conmcb25: Jesse are you there?
PTAGuildmaster: yeah sup
conmcb25: You got a few minutes?
PTAGuildmaster: fire away, responses will be slow but I'll be here
conmcb25: OK
conmcb25: First thing is answer the mail from a few turns ago about CDG,
conmcb25: We have not seen any movement north of there capitol towards the Ivory
conmcb25: But then again we have not had any units near enogh to that general area to see anything.
conmcb25: We have seen nothing to indicate that they maybe moving a settler up there but to be honest we have not watched the pop that closely since the founding of the third city, possumopolis (sp?)
PTAGuildmaster: shouldn't be a problem
conmcb25: Ok mail answered
conmcb25: :-D
PTAGuildmaster: they screwed up if they were trying to blockade us, we'll beat them to it
conmcb25: Now on tech trades
conmcb25: Cool so they are moving units up that way?
PTAGuildmaster: no, they have a sentineling warrior up that way
PTAGuildmaster: which is being indecisive, literally - back/forth
conmcb25: OK tech trades:
conmcb25: Apoly is thinking it maybe wise to continue to deal with CDG tech wise post Republic.
PTAGuildmaster: ?!
conmcb25: Lemme give you a quote from the forums:
conmcb25: Hear me out first please :-)
PTAGuildmaster: Listening with an open mind, just a bit surprised
conmcb25: Hear me out then we can debate:
conmcb25: :-)
conmcb25: The quote:
PTAGuildmaster: So speak already. ;-)
conmcb25: "My opinion: Let's trade them techs that don't matter. Techs that do not give them a military or defensive edge. Things like Polytheism, Currency, etc. I don't think it's wise of us to cut them off too early, we have to continue to string them along, because what we've done so far has worked. Their development is pathetic, their military weak, and their planning is all focused around long-term goals like the Great Lighthouse. They continue to be comfortable and at ease in their security. Let's not disturb them into defending themselves."
conmcb25: Now we realize the deal was to cut em off after Republic
conmcb25: But there is something to be said to benefit from them tech wise as long as they dont get any military benefits from it
conmcb25: And we are a ways from the attack.
conmcb25: So Im just trying to get a feel and see what you guys think?
conmcb25: We are 25 turns or so away from D_DAY
conmcb25: An continueing to string them along and making them feel comfortanle for 25 turns will be difficult at best without tech trades
conmcb25: And if they get alarmed, they may actually start building units and cities :-)
conmcb25: AND abandon the GL idea
conmcb25: Which would only make the war more diffficult
conmcb25: FP?
PTAGuildmaster: hold please
conmcb25: roger
PTAGuildmaster: sorry, civ game was going well and suddenly went horribly wrong
PTAGuildmaster: back under control now though. ;-)
conmcb25: Cool :-)
PTAGuildmaster: Well, I honestly can't predict what my team is going to say on this one.
conmcb25: OK fairenough
conmcb25: Im off to bed
conmcb25: we can talk in very general terms about a btdr in the futey |
Last edited by conmcb25 on 30-07-2004 at 10:06
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conmcb25
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Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:35
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Lates Pal conversation, it took place yesterday.
quote:
PTAGuildmaster: sending save to you now - we'll have a slave for you via trade in a few turns, btw
conmcb25: Great!!!!!
Ediited out a bunch of non pertinent discussion on how PAL names there slaves after people they hate at the ladder
conmcb25: Cool
conmcb25: Are you going to be around for a while?
PTAGuildmaster: no, signing off after I send this to you guys
PTAGuildmaster: sup?
conmcb25: Nothing
conmcb25: The border but no hurry, I got **** to do to right now
PTAGuildmaster: ah
PTAGuildmaster: yeah, our MoI has been wanting to settle that
PTAGuildmaster: we should do it soon
conmcb25: OK
PTAGuildmaster: where we plant the ivory city depends on that border agreement
conmcb25: OK
PTAGuildmaster: basically, I think the question is "what the line from meeting mountain" is
PTAGuildmaster: NW/SE, N/S, NE/SW, etc,etc,etc adnauseum
conmcb25: OK
conmcb25: We will talk later
PTAGuildmaster: no sweat
PTAGuildmaster: later
PTAGuildmaster: sent! ciao
PTAGuildmaster signed off at 2:54:28 PM.
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conmcb25
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Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:35
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Sent to F-P via email:
quote:
F-P and distinguished members of PAL.
We wanted to share this with you because it is a mutual concern, and also because you will know if CDG has map making or not. (You currently have it, we asked that you deffered giving it to us, so right now your team is the only one who can check in the diplo screen and see if its a tech they can accept)
Here is the analysis verbatim:
"OK, I've now gone through the saves all the way back to before CDG had 3 cities (missing a few saves, but used turn reports for intel).
We have just finished turn 66.
Going back to turn 56, CDG had only 2 cities. Their cap was pop 3, Minnesota was pop 5.
On turn 57 Minnesota dropped to size 3, Cap remained at size 3.
On turn 58, Cap was size 4, Minn size 3.
On turn 59 Cap was size 4, Minn was size 3 and Possum was founded.
On turn 60 Cap was size 4, Minn was size 4! (4 turn growth. Granary and 3fpt.)
On turn 62 Cap pop dropped to 2, Minn was still at 4. Settler produced.
On turn 64 Minn dropped to 3 (on the turn that it should have grown to 5). Settler produced.
Those 2 settlers are currently unaccounted for.
However, for them to be transported to an island, CDG needs to have Mapmaking. We need to ask PAL if CDG has it."
:End of verbatim analysis:
As you can see we are now concerned that maybe CDG has an offshore island they maybe colonizing since we have TWO settlers unaccounted for.
Can you guys check and let us know if they have mapmaking? Have you guys seen any settlers north of CDG where you are playing race your settler to the Ivory?
Do you have any visibility east of CDG? We can see about three tiles east of CDG. To there SW there seems to be a "sea" lane (As opposed to Ocean), that may lead to another land mass.
We told you guys what we know, let us know if you find out something or have additional peices of information that could fill in the gaps in this picture. Obviously if they have an off shore establishment that will only complicate the upcoming "EVIL PLAN".
Thanks and as always its great working with you guys.
conmcb25
Foriegn Affairs Minister for Apolyton and Ambasador to PAL. |
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Kloreep
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of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:35
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quote:
[20:31] * conmcb25_AFK has joined #c3c_isdg_embassy
[20:31] * Friedrich has joined #c3c_isdg_embassy
[20:31] [conmcb25_AFK] Welcome F-P
[20:31] [conmcb25_AFK]
[20:31] [Friedrich] ello ello
[20:31] [Kloreep] Hi
[20:32] * GodKing has joined #c3c_isdg_embassy
[20:32] [Friedrich] one sec while I see if I can summon the diplo guy
[20:32] [GodKing] Howdy.
[20:32] [Friedrich] probably not, but never know
[20:32] [Togas] hello
[20:32] [conmcb25_AFK] So you wanna talk about our intell and any kind of PAL perspective or info?
[20:32] * Nuclear_Master1 has joined #c3c_isdg_embassy
[20:32] [conmcb25_AFK] OK we can wait a bit
[20:32] [Friedrich] amongst other odds and ends
[20:33] [Friedrich] lil' crap people have been bugging me to get asked
[20:33] [Friedrich] hehe
[20:33] [Nuclear_Master1] Are we waiting on other PAL'ers?
[20:33] [GodKing] The answer is Blean, an imaginary number between 2 & 3.
[20:33] [GodKing] yes Nuclear_Master1
[20:34] [Nuclear_Master1] It's NM. 
[20:34] [GodKing] I just hit n and tab....
[20:34] [Friedrich] ::hits the buzz command::
[20:34] [Kloreep] Hmm, didn't know that before
[20:35] [Kloreep] Learn something new about mIRC every day
[20:35] [Friedrich] bah
[20:35] [Friedrich] oh well
[20:35] [conmcb25_AFK] nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
[20:35] [Friedrich] alright, I have a zillion things going on so I can't wait for him...
[20:35] [conmcb25_AFK] all its does for me is type out "n"
[20:35] [conmcb25_AFK] Ditto
[20:35] [Togas] conmcb25_AFK
[20:35] [Togas] works for me
[20:35] [Friedrich] first most, Slave Bonehed should be available to trade to you next turn
[20:36] [Friedrich] We decided we were going to stick you really good and hard on the price
[20:36] [Friedrich] 1 gold
[20:36] [Friedrich] so we can say we sold him and be honest
[20:36] [Togas] not a prob
[20:36] [Friedrich] oops
[20:36] * conmcb25_AFK is now known as conmcb25_at_keyboard
[20:36] [GodKing] Oh my. Well, there goes our treasury.
[20:36] [Friedrich] Diployguy just woke up
[20:36] [Friedrich] sec
[20:36] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Lets bet on how long it takes F-P to get the diplo guy on 
[20:37] [Togas] I'll be 2 mins
[20:37] [GodKing] 45 sec til he gives up
[20:37] [Togas] *bet
[20:37] [Nuclear_Master1] One minute.
[20:37] [Friedrich] see if I email you any articles on hoplite pillaging now, foo. :P
[20:37] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] 1 minute 30 secs
[20:37] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] He he
[20:37] [Friedrich] he'll get here
[20:37] [GodKing] I lost
[20:37] [Friedrich] a lot more efficiently than you lot get into a simple gamespy chat room. :P
[20:38] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Hey I dont have a problem with it personally
[20:38] [GodKing] I was there looking for you about 10 minutes ago....
[20:38] [Friedrich] ah. I gave up awhile ago and was playing Doom 3
[20:38] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] F-P was playing "Doom"
[20:38] [GodKing] How is doom3?
[20:38] [Friedrich] very pretty, very scary, very lousy AI
[20:39] [GodKing] How so, lots of stupid moves I take it?
[20:39] [Friedrich] just typical dogbrain rush
[20:39] [GodKing] figures.
[20:39] [Friedrich] only surprises is stuff spawning behind you at very inopportune moments
[20:39] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] We are past two minutes BTW
[20:39] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] he he
[20:39] [GodKing] It was made for 13 year olds after all.
[20:39] [Friedrich] for all that, it's a great shooter
[20:39] [Friedrich] MP is a lil' weak
[20:39] [Togas] I win
[20:40] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] he he
[20:40] [Friedrich] but it's got a storyline to beat Half-Life, for sure
[20:40] [GodKing] Send me your address and I will mail you a quarter Togas
[20:40] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] BTW F-P we have a new consul
[20:40] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Big Free
[20:40] * Cobra has joined #c3c_isdg_embassy
[20:41] [Friedrich] Ha. :P
[20:41] [Cobra] evening
[20:41] [GodKing] Does anybody know why we have this crapy cursive text in this chat room?
[20:41] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] He replaces Donegeal who became inactive
[20:41] [GodKing] Hi
[20:41] [Friedrich] He got in, see? :P
[20:41] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Hey Cobra
[20:41] [Friedrich] Okay
[20:41] [Friedrich] only thing you missed was me telling them our really steep price for Bonehed, Cobra
[20:41] [Friedrich] they were reacting in horror to our incredibly high-priced slave
[20:42] [GodKing] Ya, over half of our treasury. Highway robbery is what it is.
[20:42] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] and the massive drain it is going to have on the treasury
[20:42] [Cobra] lol
[20:42] [Friedrich] We figured we'd send you that one since we know you have a special place in your heart for him.
[20:42] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Cool
[20:42] [GodKing] And our heart thanks you.
[20:42] [Friedrich] okay, next thing we have
[20:42] [Friedrich] The whole post-republic-hoodwinking of CDG
[20:43] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] OK
[20:43] [Friedrich] we're fine with that in the abstract
[20:43] [Friedrich] but there's a problem that's looming pretty big
[20:43] [Friedrich] I dunno if you guys realize quite the tech power we're throwing around up here
[20:43] [Friedrich] in 10 turns, the only thing left we can research is lit
[20:43] [Friedrich] mystic is done, poly in 10
[20:43] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] We can imgine
[20:43] [Friedrich] and that leaves lit and stuff you all have
[20:43] [Friedrich] if CDG is researching Lit...
[20:44] [Friedrich] How do you guys wanna run that?
[20:44] [GodKing] No, they are going for MM, unless they already have it.
[20:44] [Friedrich] They do not already have MM.
[20:44] [Friedrich] We checked
[20:44] [GodKing] Good.
[20:44] [Friedrich] They lack Wheel, Masonry, Maps
[20:44] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] OK pro trade with CDG guys what do you think?
[20:44] [Togas] good
[20:44] [Friedrich] well, I'm working on the assumption that once the Republic trade is complete
[20:44] [Friedrich] APO and PAL will equalize tech levels
[20:44] [GodKing] We get philo and republic this turn.
[20:45] [Friedrich] ah!
[20:45] [Cobra] wow so soon ahead of schedule?
[20:45] [Friedrich] okay, then no worries, we can jump on currency or consturction while you grab the other and CDG does lit, and we're out and done
[20:45] [GodKing] I think. I will have to check.
[20:45] [Friedrich] we didn't think you'd have it done so soon
[20:45] [Friedrich] that works out well then
[20:45] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Really?
[20:46] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] I thought we told you guys that
[20:46] [Friedrich] ...but what exactly are you guys planning on telling CDG? That we offered you a ton of gold and all the other techs? hehe
[20:46] [Cobra] really we weren't plannin on that for another 10 turns or so
[20:46] [Friedrich] admittedly, we could have - we don't - over 200 gold by now, easily
[20:46] [Friedrich] Just seems like the diplomatic cover is going to get really strained pretty soon.
[20:47] [GodKing] Could be. BRB
[20:47] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] We are discussing
[20:47] [Friedrich] ::Nod::
[20:47] [Friedrich] As long as we equalize techs after your deal with CDG runs its course, we'll play any charade you guys want
[20:48] [Friedrich] We're in a position to appear either the nice guy or the mean guy, depending on what we do with this ivory grab we're going to make
[20:50] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] How about you guys do construc
[20:50] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] we do currency
[20:50] [Friedrich] bear in mind we're 10 out on Poly right now
[20:50] [Friedrich] but after that, whichever is fine
[20:50] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] we talk CDG into Lit?
[20:50] [Friedrich] any reasoning on which we do vs you do? just the cost?
[20:50] [Friedrich] that's cool with CDG, like I said
[20:50] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Yes I believe so
[20:51] [Friedrich] We'll dance whatever tune you all feel comfortable with
[20:51] [GodKing] In that case, I have some nice bagpipe music......
[20:51] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Construction is more than currency if I remeber correctly
[20:51] [Friedrich] I believe you're correct, yes.
[20:51] [GodKing] yes.
[20:51] [Friedrich] Well, here's how it stands - we've got CDG beat to the ivory by a long shot, and they know it and we know it
[20:51] [Friedrich] We're discussing taking one and leaving one open
[20:51] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Then wtih your stronger research it makes snese
[20:51] [Friedrich] and saying "look neighbor, we left half for you, how nice of us"
[20:52] [Friedrich] if that approach works better for APO, we can do that
[20:52] [Friedrich] or if you want us to look imposing and pull their defenses north, we can do that too. ::shrug::
[20:52] [Togas] where will you build?
[20:52] [Kloreep] What are the two potions?
[20:52] [GodKing] Do you think their city would be takable when the war starts?
[20:52] [Kloreep] *options
[20:52] [Friedrich] that rather depends on the outcome of this talk
[20:52] [Friedrich]
[20:52] [Friedrich] We were going to build such that only one would be in our borders
[20:52] [Friedrich] or we could take both
[20:53] [Friedrich] I think the preference/lean is to take one and leave one
[20:53] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] F-P is referring to the next agenda item
[20:53] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Ok we are discussing
[20:54] [Friedrich] yeah, next agenda item is exactly where the Meeting Mountain line would be; if we draw it NE/SW, we'll just settle to take only one ivory and stay on "our side" of the line
[20:54] * WIA_work has joined #c3c_isdg_embassy
[20:54] [Friedrich] based on our timetable for CDG's curragh travel around the world, we think the land is *roughly* even
[20:54] [Friedrich] but admittedly, that's a rough guess
[20:55] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Do you really think thats even?
[20:56] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Were guessing not
[20:56] [Friedrich] we're only working off the travel time on CDG's curragh
[20:56] [Friedrich] we could be considerably off, we don't know quite what you have back there
[20:56] [GodKing] Based on our scouting, we believe the silk you have a colony on is near the half way point. The silk would fall into our domain, and the city you have north of it would stay yours.
[20:56] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] We were thinking a line east west just north of meeting mountain
[20:57] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] I would say roughly what you have north of there plus that pennisula is probably more than whats south
[20:57] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] But again its tough without something like a tile count
[20:57] [Togas] it wouldn't be "just north" it would be in the middle of the peninsula that separates the two big land masses
[20:58] [Friedrich] ::Muse::
[20:58] [Friedrich] Okay, tell you what - I think I can get folks to agree to this for now on my side -
[20:58] [GodKing] I wish we could show maps.
[20:58] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] How many tiles north of meeting mountain?
[20:58] [Friedrich] let's call the area between Crudetown and Meeting Mountain "No man's land" until we have nothing else to settle
[20:58] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Who has the map handy?
[20:58] [Friedrich] until we can do some proper scouting
[20:58] [GodKing] Loading...
[20:58] [Friedrich] I don't think that region is due for any more settling for us for quite some time
[20:59] [GodKing] It will be after the war.
[20:59] [Friedrich] You want to just call that area "Friendly disputed?"
[20:59] [Friedrich] hehe
[20:59] [Friedrich] Or perhaps more accurately "unknown TBD" or something
[21:00] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Ok we are trying to figure out how to tell you what we are thinking without violating the rules
[21:01] [Cobra] may i point out one small thing?
[21:01] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] of course
[21:01] [GodKing] TBD. OK. but to let you know, our people are pretty strong about the area being 1-2 tiles north of Silks near the mountain 3,3 of Crudetown
[21:01] [Cobra] as i understand from what you can tell is and isn't the half way point of the lands as we both can see it...
[21:02] [Togas] exactly
[21:02] [Cobra] the silk is only 10 tiles away from our capital... we are also puttin in a lot of resources into takincities from cdg that we will be giving you... could there not be some kind of meeting gorund on letting us keep to the silks at least?
[21:03] [Cobra] not the silks per say but the land
[21:03] [GodKing] As we don't (and neither do you) have full maps, and map trading, we are trying to guesstimate fair land split.
[21:03] [Cobra] as we will be giving silks to you shortly
[21:03] [Friedrich] I think some feeling in PAL is that since we're getting no "spoils of war" aside from the obvious diplomatic ones...
[21:03] [GodKing] I understand.
[21:03] [Friedrich] That's not a major issue by any means
[21:04] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Whats not a mjor issue?
[21:04] [Friedrich] Okay, hmm. There's got to be a better way to do this.
[21:04] [GodKing] I think we can discuss the details of this later. We have no immediate plans to settle there.
[21:04] [Friedrich] yeah
[21:04] [Friedrich] Let's both sides brainstorm the fastest way to get a good solid map
[21:04] [Friedrich] and for now, I think PAL can keep north of the uncertain region.
[21:05] [Friedrich] for now and for however long - wasn't trying to imply anything
[21:05] [Friedrich] too much teaching crap lately
[21:05] [GodKing] Without MM, we will pump out a couple currachs after the war and go scouting
[21:05] [Friedrich] anyhow, next thing - luxes in general
[21:05] [Friedrich] Right now we have 1 fur and 1 silk.
[21:05] * WIA_work has left #c3c_isdg_embassy
[21:05] [Friedrich] We have another silk - I think you've seen it? - we're going to hook up "soonish"
[21:05] [Friedrich] we were planning on shunting that over to you
[21:06] [Kloreep] You mean by harbor, or is your southern road progressing towards us?
[21:06] [Friedrich] heh
[21:06] [Friedrich] that's true, you don't know
[21:06] [GodKing] We have grapes and ivory, and will soon get furs from cdg. You have extra silks you can connect. I believe there is more than enough to share all of them
[21:06] [Friedrich] okay, our road right now
[21:06] [Friedrich] is...
[21:06] [Friedrich] ::checks map::
[21:06] [Friedrich] as of next turn
[21:06] [Friedrich] the road terminates 2 N of the ivory
[21:07] [Friedrich] it is 9 9 9 from Meeting MOuntain
[21:07] [Friedrich] where it veers SE for the silk
[21:07] [Friedrich] err, ivory
[21:07] [GodKing] by the river?
[21:07] [Friedrich] correct
[21:07] [Friedrich] FYI, Jarl Brent is also hanging out there
[21:07] [Friedrich] and not looking terribly happy, but we're letting him stare at our workers
[21:08] [Friedrich] we figure if CDG is that dumb....
[21:08] [GodKing] Our roadway is going the opposite direction now to connect the iron. Once the war begins, we will of course start roading that way.
[21:08] [Friedrich] picking fights with a team with double and half again your score is really unhealthy, so we think they'll behave
[21:08] [Friedrich] hmm. okay, that's something the MoI wanted to know
[21:08] [Friedrich] let's get a total lux count - he wanted that too
[21:08] [Friedrich] PAL knows of...
[21:09] [Friedrich] 2 silk, 1 fur, 2 ivory
[21:09] [Friedrich] not counting APO's ivory
[21:09] [Friedrich] thats either loose or under PAL control
[21:09] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] We have two grapes right now and the Ivory I believe
[21:09] [GodKing] We have 1 ivory and 1 grape hooked up. We have 2 more grape we can hook up, and cdg has 2 furs
[21:09] [Kloreep] We have three grapes, actually
[21:09] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Correct GK?
[21:09] [Kloreep] Only one hooked up at the moment though
[21:09] [Friedrich] okay, no sweat.
[21:10] [Friedrich] I think he was planning some long-range thing, I dunno
[21:10] [Friedrich] our MoI is crazy efficient/effective.
[21:10] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] So lux wise we should be good
[21:10] [Friedrich] yeah
[21:10] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] We connect the road
[21:10] [GodKing] Ya, 4, with plenty to share.
[21:10] [Togas] 
[21:10] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Share the excess
[21:10] [Friedrich] trade possibilities with the other continent will be...
[21:10] [Friedrich] fascinating.
[21:10] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Weare both litterally happy
[21:10] [conmcb25_at_keyboard]
[21:10] [Friedrich] We're going to be in a great position to pull strings when the time comes
[21:11] [Friedrich] We, collectively us-we
[21:11] [GodKing] 1 grape, 1 fur, 1 ivory, and 0 silk
[21:11] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] he He
[21:11] [Friedrich] okay. ::think::
[21:11] [Friedrich] ::makes a note::
[21:11] [Friedrich] If we can spare it - not sure - any objection to us running the road down to you?
[21:11] [Friedrich] the MoI may kill me for suggesting that, not sure
[21:11] [GodKing] unless of course there are some more silk to the SE of you that we have not seen. Lots of jungle that way.
[21:12] [Friedrich] we've got that area cleared now, no other silks around
[21:12] [GodKing] No. Sooner the better for trading.
[21:12] [Friedrich] I have to admit we were a little disappointed with the size of that eastern area
[21:12] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] I would say eventually we need the road hookup
[21:12] [Friedrich] but we'll take what we can get, I suppose
[21:12] [GodKing] as we don't want MM for a bit, no harbors to trade.
[21:12] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] But now the priority should be road building for war
[21:13] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] I dont think, but then I dont know for sure but we shouldn't both need all the luxs soon
[21:13] [GodKing] We are planning on an amphib invasion, and are planning our navy for such.
[21:13] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] The time will come though
[21:13] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] So its a matter of priority
[21:13] [Friedrich] sec phone
[21:13] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Dont you think?
[21:13] [GodKing] Emperor = you can never have enough lux. MOI-GK!!!!!
[21:13] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] True
[21:13] [Friedrich] an amphib invasion?
[21:13] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] But its not like we both have tons of size twelve cities right now
[21:13] [Friedrich] 0_o
[21:14] [Friedrich] don't you think that's quite a bit overkill?
[21:14] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] What amphib invasion/
[21:14] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] ???
[21:14] [GodKing] No. But under republic, you have NO mp's.
[21:14] [Friedrich] [GodKing] We are planning on an amphib invasion, and are planning our navy for such.]
[21:14] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] If CDG does not have MM, there should be no problem
[21:14] [GodKing] The other continent. Post CDG that is.
[21:14] [Friedrich] ahhh
[21:14] [Friedrich] right
[21:15] [Friedrich] well, I'm kind of hoping we can convince them to bash each other's heads in a bit before we arrive
[21:15] [Friedrich] hehe
[21:15] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] GK focus on the issues now please
[21:15] [Friedrich] Okay, two points for clarity
[21:15] [GodKing] We want a sizable fleet, and as we are commercial, it is better for us to purchase and upgrade instead of building them.
[21:15] [Friedrich] First - when are we going to do the massive tech equality tradeup?
[21:15] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] We are thinking as the war starts
[21:15] [Friedrich] MoI will be very interested in the date for Republic, obviously
[21:15] [Kloreep] Yeah
[21:15] [Friedrich] uh...
[21:15] [Friedrich] hmm...
[21:15] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Then the charade will no longer be needed
[21:15] [Friedrich] That could be problematic.
[21:15] [Kloreep] If we do it before the war, it could muck up CDG relations
[21:16] [Friedrich] At some point CDG is going to smell a rat if they don't already, guys.
[21:16] [Friedrich] Can only min-max it so much.
[21:16] [GodKing] When would you prefer to switch to republic, knowing that you have no MP and only 1 unit supprort?
[21:16] [Friedrich] I'll check with the MOI, but I think our plan was to trigger our GA with the Pyramids right at wartime - already in Republic
[21:17] [Friedrich] commerce will not be a significant issue
[21:17] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Well I think you should have republic right away
[21:17] [GodKing] Understand. No building when in anarchy.
[21:17] [Kloreep] Yeah, or at least a few turns before you want to switch
[21:17] [Friedrich] hmm
[21:18] [Friedrich] okay, proposal
[21:18] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] We should be able to concoct some good story with CDG how we ":raped" you to so you could get Republic
[21:18] [Friedrich] why don't we - PAL - start opening friendly channels with CDG, point out that we are letting them have the other ivory
[21:18] [Friedrich] maybe we can even offer to road down to them and give it to them
[21:18] [GodKing] EVIL
[21:18] [Friedrich] and at the same time, PAL-APO makes a huge tech deal
[21:18] [Friedrich] we give APO all these techs
[21:19] [Friedrich] they don't know we already gave you wheel and masonry, for example
[21:19] [Friedrich] and in exchange, we got all those techs
[21:19] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] We give you Republic
[21:19] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] xpost
[21:19] [Friedrich] CDG doesn't have Math
[21:19] [Friedrich] so they won't know that was in there as well
[21:19] [Friedrich] we both tell CDG...
[21:19] [Friedrich] "Hey, we'll trade you this or that spiffy stuff for Lit"
[21:19] [Friedrich] and they'll think they're getting a Lion's Deal
[21:19] [GodKing] Nice.
[21:19] [Friedrich] we both want Lit, and they'll both get it
[21:20] [Friedrich] and they get two techs for 1
[21:20] [Togas]
[21:20] [Friedrich] To be terribly honest, my motivation here IS to get those techs equalized between us
[21:20] [GodKing] Mathmatics will be a good one to trade them. They may try for zeus, and any cats we capture are just a bonus.
[21:20] [Friedrich] The Paranoids on PAL don't get the whole "tech-deprivation-hoodwink" thing
[21:20] [Friedrich] it's totally non-MP in nature
[21:20] [Friedrich] sure
[21:20] [Friedrich] you give them math for lit
[21:20] [Friedrich] we'll give them mystic and poly
[21:20] [GodKing] Very much non-mp
[21:21] [Friedrich] giving them mystic and poly is lucrative
[21:21] [Togas]
[21:21] [Friedrich] but we can offer it as an apology for our nervous quiet earlier
[21:21] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Hmmmmm
[21:21] [Kloreep] Yeah, Myst and Poly won't do them any good without the other era-required techs
[21:21] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] I think math requires masonry
[21:21] [Friedrich] correct
[21:21] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] They dont have it
[21:21] [Friedrich] hmm.
[21:21] [Friedrich] that's problematic.
[21:21] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] city walls
[21:22] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] 
[21:22] [Friedrich] yeah. ::think::
[21:22] [Kloreep] Is there something else we could give them?
[21:22] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Its gotta be non militry
[21:22] [Kloreep] Hmm
[21:22] [Kloreep] No
[21:22] [GodKing] MapMaking? Nothing else there really.
[21:22] [Friedrich] hang on, another question
[21:22] [Friedrich] How many turns left until war? no more than 20?
[21:22] [Kloreep] Not unless we get Currency...
[21:23] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] I think 20 to 25
[21:23] [Friedrich] I don't have the date in front of me
[21:23] [Friedrich] I'm wondering if CDG will even *get* Lit that fast
[21:23] [GodKing] We are on 66. Tent scheduled for 90. Currency requires math.
[21:23] [Friedrich] okay.
[21:23] [Friedrich] here we go then
[21:23] [Friedrich] tonight or tomorrow
[21:23] [Friedrich] we both throw the Lit deal at them
[21:23] [Kloreep] Problem...
[21:23] [Friedrich] hmm?
[21:23] [Kloreep] If they're already on MM, they might not get Lit in time
[21:23] [GodKing] BRB
[21:23] [Kloreep] Before the war starts
[21:23] [Friedrich] here's where Fried gets evil
[21:24] [Friedrich] we throw the dela at them now
[21:24] [Friedrich] YOU guys offer Mapmaking
[21:24] [Friedrich] you'll get it from us
[21:24] [Friedrich] we'll offer Mystic and Poly
[21:24] [Friedrich] they switch and restart
[21:24] [Kloreep] I think it might work better the other way around
[21:24] [Togas] I think they're already working MM :/
[21:24] [Kloreep] Togas: And trading them MM would get them off it
[21:24] [Friedrich] figure they take...call it 15, 18 turns to get Lit
[21:24] [Kloreep] I think it would be better the other way, though
[21:24] [Friedrich] that leaves them, what, 8 turns to get a boat in the water?
[21:24] [Kloreep] PAL trades them MM in advance
[21:25] [Friedrich] if they only have 8 turns, they won't get a boat out before wartime
[21:25] [Kloreep] Or not if you can swing it without advance, so they don't have galleys long
[21:25] [Friedrich] and if they want to sail one settler away on a galley, that's fine with me
[21:25] [Kloreep] You trade us Myst to trade to them, and we say we're researching poly
[21:25] [Friedrich] they just won't have time to conduct a major naval operation
[21:25] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] F-P they got three cities for Pets sake
[21:26] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Petes
[21:26] [Friedrich] four shortly
[21:26] [Friedrich] we've located one settler
[21:26] [Friedrich] it's by ...
[21:26] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Is there a settler by the Ivory?
[21:26] [Friedrich] the game and cow
[21:26] [Friedrich] with a wounded spear
[21:26] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Ok
[21:26] [Friedrich] we're betting it'll settle there
[21:26] [Friedrich] we have warriors politely blockading above it
[21:26] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] They probably lost the other to barbs them
[21:26] [Friedrich] we think so
[21:26] [Togas] that is possible
[21:26] [Friedrich] one of the two barbs was a horse
[21:26] [Friedrich] and that spear is wounded - they've seen some ugly barbf ighting
[21:27] [Friedrich] okay, so let's recap the plan
[21:27] [Friedrich] This turn you get Philo and Repub
[21:27] [Friedrich] we open a discourse with CDG
[21:27] [Friedrich] "Hi, we'll split this ivory with you even though we've got it cold"
[21:27] [Friedrich] Next turn or turn after, PAL-APO equalize
[21:27] [Friedrich] APO says "Poly for Lit!"
[21:27] [Friedrich] PAL says "MM for Lit!"
[21:28] [Friedrich] if all goes well, CDG switches, looking for a fast buck
[21:28] [Friedrich] you explain that you made a monster trade with us involving mad riches if they ask
[21:28] [Friedrich] and we both move in and rip them apart right while they're putting the first boat in the waves
[21:28] [GodKing] We will probably be reducing our research in the near future so we can upgrade all our warriors.
[21:28] [Friedrich] not a problem
[21:29] [Friedrich] the feeling in PAL is that until the industrial, we'll be the power half of our partnership
[21:29] [Friedrich] but your traits will make you the power partner in the Industrial-on
[21:29] [Friedrich] once your infrastructure matches ours, you'll obviously have the stronger empire
[21:29] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] We pretty much figured that as well
[21:29] [Friedrich] pretty efficient partnership, this.
[21:29] [GodKing] We estimate the switch slightly before then, but in essence you are correct.
[21:30] [Friedrich] tough to say, remember - we'll have pyramids growth
[21:30] [Friedrich] we're going to be....LARGE.... by mid feudal
[21:30] [Friedrich] 0_oi
[21:30] [GodKing] Looks like you have much more firtle land once all the swamp is cleared.
[21:30] [Friedrich] the estimates are... intimidating, we're already planning a multi-MoI system by neccessity
[21:31] [Friedrich] just from raw city/tileworking load
[21:31] [Friedrich] our land isn't great for production, but we sure can grow
[21:31] [Friedrich] heh
[21:31] [Friedrich] but anyhow
[21:31] [GodKing] True, and with your traits.....
[21:31] [Friedrich] it ought to blend nicely
[21:31] [Friedrich] So can we plan on/proceed with that diplomatic plan?
[21:31] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] We agree
[21:32] [Friedrich] our CDG diplomatic guy is really bored, he'll love this
[21:32] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] We concur with your diplo tech idea
[21:32] [Friedrich] great stuff
[21:32] [GodKing] Would you like to send a worker collector our way? We have several barbs floating around the neighberhood that you are more than welcome to harvest
[21:32] [Friedrich] I think that's all the stuff we had
[21:32] [Friedrich] uh... I can check into that
[21:33] [Friedrich] we have just the one psycho-elite Javver, but we might get him down that way
[21:33] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] And we concur with a CrudeTown to Meeting Mountain no mnas land till we can do a tile count or whatever to equalize the division of land
[21:33] [Friedrich] great. Pleasure dealing with other reasonable folks.
[21:33] [Friedrich] you guys have anything?
[21:33] [GodKing] If you can spare constr. on one of your horses for the war, as I am sure that you have a need for him up your way as well.
[21:34] [Togas] keep us posted on CDG's northern affairs
[21:34] [Togas] we can keep track of CDG's pop loss and settler production
[21:34] [Friedrich] will do
[21:34] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] and we can keep you posted on whatever we see
[21:35] [Friedrich] right now they hav eJarl Brent NW, N of the ivory
[21:35] [Friedrich] and another warrior north of the sugar west of Meeting MOuntain on the next mountain over
[21:35] [Friedrich] quite a nice sentinel net. :P
[21:35] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] he he
[21:35] [GodKing] They still dont have horses connected btw, so their military si archers and spears.
[21:36] [Kloreep] I don't think they can see their horse yet
[21:36] [Kloreep] No Wheel still
[21:36] [GodKing] true
[21:37] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] OK to be cler here part of the diplo plan is for PAL to settle one Ivory, "giving" CDG the other, correct?
[21:37] [Friedrich] right
[21:37] [Friedrich] we're going to settle one, offer the other to them
[21:37] [Friedrich] and suggest- not demand - we can connect a road to them
[21:37] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] And play the peceful neighbor for right now, correct?
[21:37] [Friedrich] I'll be surprised if they accept that offer
[21:37] [Friedrich] but we'll see what goes
[21:37] [Friedrich] right
[21:37] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Ok I and we think that will work
[21:38] [Friedrich] our CDG diplo guy will do the apologetic "we were MP diplonoobs, and we'd like to make up for it"
[21:38] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Cool
[21:38] [GodKing] sounds like a plan
[21:38] [Nuclear_Master1] I just got back, what did we decided in terms of CDG?
[21:38] [Friedrich] great
[21:39] [Friedrich] can one of you guys send us a log of this?
[21:39] [Friedrich] I forgot to turn on my bloody logger. As usual.
[21:39] [Friedrich] ::Mumble::
[21:39] [Friedrich] See the master diplomat! Be in awe of his ability to NOT LOG his talks
[21:39] [GodKing] I am sure we can. I forgot my log also, else I would.
[21:39] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] We can get you one
[21:40] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Kloreep usually logs
[21:40] [Friedrich] great. well I'm glad this turned out so well all around
[21:40] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] If not ill cut and paste and email it
[21:40] [Friedrich] PAL gets the techs they want, you get your diplohoodwinking, and CDG gets dead on time, schedule, and archaic.
[21:40] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Our goal was to make sure it would
[21:40] [Kloreep] Yeah, I can send you a log
[21:40] [GodKing] 
[21:40] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] were looking forward to a long term fruitfull relationship
[21:41] [Friedrich] Hehe
[21:41] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] And my gut feeling is we are staring to understand your culture
[21:41] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] You are understanding ours better
[21:41] [Friedrich] And if it needs to be said, no we're not planning on stabbing you with GWT or SHU.
[21:41] [Friedrich] GWT I remember too well from PTWISDG
[21:41] [GodKing] I think the other continent will be surprised to have lots of knights and muskets suddenly arrive while they are still researching republic.
[21:41] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] and we are both trying to meet in the middle
[21:41] [Friedrich] and SHU..well... anyone who dies that early...
[21:42] [Friedrich] I wonder how they're doing in research over there
[21:42] [Friedrich] ::muse::
[21:42] [Friedrich] Maybe one of us should be going for the Lighthouse to find out?
[21:42] [Friedrich] eh. idle thoughts.
[21:42] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Hmm good point
[21:42] [Kloreep] They seem to be growing at a decent clip... IF they actually ally, they could go fairly fast, I think
[21:42] [Kloreep] As for the GL... if CDG doesn't get it, one of us probably should make an attempt
[21:42] [GodKing] 12 do we need to send you any techs this turn?
[21:43] [Friedrich] nah, let's just do the whole thing as quickly as possible after you have Republic
[21:43] [Friedrich] obviously it'll take two turns to complete it all, but that's not a big deal
[21:43] [GodKing] OK. we will email schedules back and forth.
[21:44] [Friedrich] I think PAL will be very pleased with the current plan
[21:44] [Friedrich] all eyes will turn to our CDG guy and whether or not he can run the "let's build a peace road" plan on them
[21:44] [Friedrich] but no pressure, Dohr, when you read this.
[21:44] [GodKing] and if they buy it
[21:44] [Friedrich]
[21:45] [Friedrich] Alright, I have a hot chick staring at me wanting my attention
[21:45] [Friedrich] So I'm gonna duck out
[21:46] [GodKing] Lucky you. Later
[21:46] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Ok can we talk to the diplo guy?
[21:46] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] cobra
[21:46] [Friedrich] sec
[21:46] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] to finish up?
[21:46] [Friedrich] do you have other stuff?
[21:46] [Friedrich] ::raises Cobra or tries::
[21:46] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Just discussing the table foir trading techs
[21:47] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] We have republic this turn
[21:47] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Thats why we are asking
[21:47] [Friedrich] hmm
[21:47] [Friedrich] want to shunt philo/code/math now then?
[21:47] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] why NOT send you something
[21:47] [GodKing] We can send you COL and philo this turn if you want.
[21:47] [Cobra] sorry
[21:47] [Cobra] back
[21:47] [Friedrich] and we'll fire you Mystic and Maps?
[21:47] [Togas] hold back on maps
[21:47] [Togas] we want to build more curraghs first
[21:48] [Kloreep] Yeah, don't send MM
[21:48] [Friedrich] alright
[21:48] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] Wewanna do a few more curraghs for upgrade
[21:48] [Togas] but send us mysticism for sure
[21:48] [Friedrich] well, send those three and you'll get a whopping Mysticism for it
[21:48] [Friedrich] yar!
[21:48] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] he he
[21:48] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] we know you are good for it
[21:48] [GodKing] Few, I am thinking along the lines of 10 (that includes loosing 2 by barbs)
[21:48] [Cobra] heh
[21:48] [Friedrich] okay, I really gotta scram. Cobra's up if you need him
[21:48] [Cobra] keep one curraph to take care of the barbs
[21:48] [Friedrich] someone please email me a log.
[21:48] [Cobra] they stronger then galleys
[21:49] [Kloreep] FP: Will do
[21:49] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] OK do we have the next turn figured out so F-P can get some lovin"
[21:49] * Friedrich has left #c3c_isdg_embassy
[21:49] * Logging #c3c_isdg_embassy to 'C:\WINDOWS\Desktop\#c3c_isdg_embassy.GRNet.log'
[21:49] [Cobra] he realyl had to split
[21:49] [Cobra] said if we need to discuss anything else you can talk to me
[21:49] [GodKing] True, but we are looking to upgrade them for our future invasion fleet.
[21:49] [Cobra] but don't see what else thre would be need to talk about
[21:49] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] when you need a peice of ass you need a peice of ass
[21:49] [conmcb25_at_keyboard] :lol;
[21:49] [GodKing] lol
[21:49] [Cobra] no
[21:50] [Cobra] when the piece of ass wants you she gets it
[21:50] [GodKing] Expecially if it is a nice peace of ass.
[21:50] [Cobra]
[21:50] [Cobra] so we all on the same page now?
[21:50] [GodKing] OK. We will put together a timetable and email it to FP.
[21:50] [Cobra] ok good
[21:51] [Cobra] sorry i couldn't participate more in the discussion was busy killin a few people in an indi game
[21:52] [GodKing] Understand. Gotta go myself. Later.
[21:52] [Cobra] likewise have a good night guys
[21:52] [Cobra] til we meet again
[21:53] [GodKing] Bye
[21:53] * Cobra has quit IRC (Quit: ) |
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BigFree
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Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:35
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Sent to CDG by PAL and CC'ed to us. Although there is no proof that is is a note to CDG...
quote:
Respected neighbor CDG:
Our intention was never to unnerve or upset you with our warriors, but merely to watch. In our community, this action would not have been taken in a hostile manner, and we apologize if that sentiment was unintentionally transmitted.
Unfortunately, we are not sure that the same can be said for your most recent action. You have for several turns clearly seen the development of our infrastructure towards the ivory, and clearly seen the progress of our units to acquiring it. You have now - without negotiation or comment - stepped into the way of said infrastructure in a manner which is both clear, considered, and callous. This is not the action of a friendly nation.
We were, prior to the receipt of the turnsave, ready to withdraw our warriors with sincere apologies for any offense we might have committed unintentionally. Our troops are numerous enough that we cannot and do not carefully ponder each movement on any given turn, and some of those which appear inconsequential are ignored. Now, unfortunately, they must remain, as we are no longer certain of the goodwill of our southern neighbors. At such time that your warrior no longer impedes our development, our unintended blockade (which would not have been blocking yours had you chosen any other course of action, as we would have happily moved for you to pass) must remain.
We would like to point out that we were, in complete honesty, about to contact you about a road between our nations, for an exchange of luxuries... but your actions have actually blocked that road's progress, both physically, and diplomatically.
We now await YOUR response, and corrective action, so that we may reconsider a much more harmonious and peaceful future together. If your intent is to remedy this situation satisfactorily, we urge you to move Jarl Brent to the west. If your intent is to worsen the situation, we will regretfully note Jarl remaining in his current location, or in any way interdicting our further just efforts, as a hostile act, whose intentions for your people cannot be considered by just and reasonable men.
The People's Army of the Ladder
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conmcb25
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Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:35
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AIm conversation with F-P:
quote:
PTAGuildmaster: you around?
PTAGuildmaster: Okay, situation stands thus:
PTAGuildmaster: When you get the save, you will see a triple warrior blockade on the hills by the ivory
PTAGuildmaster: (Which is currently still neutral territory.)
PTAGuildmaster: CDG has, simultaneously, moved a settler/spear pair against our blockade - S of it - and blockaded our own movements to the ivory with a warrior of theirs.
PTAGuildmaster: They're demanding we remove our blockade at the same time they're blockading us - it will make the difference on who gets the ivory.
PTAGuildmaster: To put it mildly, it's a slap in the face and there are some significantly unhappy PAL folk
PTAGuildmaster: There is a possibility that CDG will become violent if they realize we're not going to let them order us around. We'll keep you advised.
conmcb25: Roger that
PTAGuildmaster: check your email
conmcb25: Ill pass it on to the team
conmcb25: OK
PTAGuildmaster: we just sent CDG an official "Watch your **** or else"
PTAGuildmaster: Phrased very much more diplomatically, of course.
PTAGuildmaster: I CC'd the "Apolyton Save List"
PTAGuildmaster: want a direct forward?
conmcb25: Sure if you dont mind?
PTAGuildmaster: email?
conmcb25: Yep that wil work
PTAGuildmaster: I mean
PTAGuildmaster: what is your email
PTAGuildmaster: hehe
conmcb25: conmcb25@bluemarble.net
PTAGuildmaster: lousy memory have I
PTAGuildmaster: I don't know what CDG is thinking
PTAGuildmaster: if I were in their shoes, I'd have to be insane to try and dictate terms to someone 150% higher in score and with god knows how much larger military
conmcb25: Well they obviously aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer
PTAGuildmaster: heh
PTAGuildmaster: a fair assessment
conmcb25: OR the :evil Plan; is working
PTAGuildmaster: awah?
conmcb25: And they actually assume Apoly is on there side.
conmcb25: They were bugging us for an alliance a while back
PTAGuildmaster: honestly at this point, I bet we could take them while you guys built, though I wouldn't suggest that for a whole bevy of reasons.
PTAGuildmaster: We probably nearly double the horses they do spears
conmcb25: #1, it would drive the MOI guys crazy
conmcb25: he he
PTAGuildmaster: heh
PTAGuildmaster: that whole land claim thing is going to be messy
PTAGuildmaster: ::grimace::
PTAGuildmaster: the isthumus area, I mean
PTAGuildmaster: we really need to get a tile count
conmcb25: Yes
conmcb25: Sopmething to make it fair for both sides
PTAGuildmaster: Alright, enough drama for me tonight, I have to go teach kids in 7 hours.
conmcb25: Yep
conmcb25: I gotta sleep too
PTAGuildmaster: y'know, that archer you guys have over there, heh
PTAGuildmaster: Wonder if CDG is gonna think the wrong thing.
PTAGuildmaster: you guys close your big tech deal with them finally?
conmcb25: The Repulic Deal?
PTAGuildmaster: yeah
conmcb25: I believe so
PTAGuildmaster: I wonder if they think you're going to interfere or something.
PTAGuildmaster: should be interesting
conmcb25: I dont think they got Republic yet
conmcb25: Yea
conmcb25: I dont think we have talked to them yet about anything beyond Republic
conmcb25: If we have it has not been posted.
PTAGuildmaster: okay, cool, just curious
conmcb25: Im being sort of nebulous because our CDG ambassador doens' t always post timely info.
PTAGuildmaster: heh
PTAGuildmaster: I know the feeling
conmcb25: He He
conmcb25: Just to follow up, I checked and we sent Philo last turn to CDG
PTAGuildmaster: cool, np
conmcb25: Thats it
PTAGuildmaster: alright, I'm calling it a night
conmcb25: Ok man lets go to bed, Im very tired
conmcb25: Me too
PTAGuildmaster: should be interesting days ahead.
PTAGuildmaster: later
conmcb25: gnight
PTAGuildmaster signed off at 11:48:41 PM. |
Last edited by conmcb25 on 17-08-2004 at 16:04
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GodKing
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Detroit
Feb 2002
time: 00:35
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quote:
Respected neighbor CDG:
Our intention was never to unnerve or upset you with our warriors, but merely to watch. In our community, this action would not have been taken in a hostile manner, and we apologize if that sentiment was unintentionally transmitted.
Unfortunately, we are not sure that the same can be said for your most recent action. You have for several turns clearly seen the development of our infrastructure towards the ivory, and clearly seen the progress of our units to acquiring it. You have now - without negotiation or comment - stepped into the way of said infrastructure in a manner which is both clear, considered, and callous. This is not the action of a friendly nation.
We were, prior to the receipt of the turnsave, ready to withdraw our warriors with sincere apologies for any offense we might have committed unintentionally. Our troops are numerous enough that we cannot and do not carefully ponder each movement on any given turn, and some of those which appear inconsequential are ignored. Now, unfortunately, they must remain, as we are no longer certain of the goodwill of our southern neighbors. At such time that your warrior no longer impedes our development, our unintended blockade (which would not have been blocking yours had you chosen any other course of action, as we would have happily moved for you to pass) must remain.
We would like to point out that we were, in complete honesty, about to contact you about a road between our nations, for an exchange of luxuries... but your actions have actually blocked that road's progress, both physically, and diplomatically.
We now await YOUR response, and corrective action, so that we may reconsider a much more harmonious and peaceful future together. If your intent is to remedy this situation satisfactorily, we urge you to move Jarl Brent to the west. If your intent is to worsen the situation, we will regretfully note Jarl remaining in his current location, or in any way interdicting our further just efforts, as a hostile act, whose intentions for your people cannot be considered by just and reasonable men.
The People's Army of the Ladder |
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conmcb25
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Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:35
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Latest from F-P in response to my letter above and to include a few questions of his own:
quote:
Here is the save, gentlemen, and an answer to Con's questions.
I'm not sure if I'm clear on the total city count for CDG:
The capital, Minnesota, Sven Fjord, Reykjavik is what we see. Is there another you know about that we don't?
We concur with your analysis of the tech situation; we were unable to lure CDG off Mapmaking, but they don't have it yet.
Currently there are quite a few units by the ivory; we have a few by our new city of Pumpkinland, and there is a spear in Sven Fjord, as well as a pair of warriors spread north of it.
We will be sending a road out of Pumpkinland towards you - west and then southwest - so we were planning on using the gold hill and mountain W,SW from Meeting Mountain in order to watch for barbs. Are there any around that you know of right now?
Cobra is on a mapping expedition like your own, partially for lack of a better thing to do, and partially to speed up the process of sorting our areas of land concern.
Our preparations for the date (T-minus 21 turns by our count?) continue well, and we see you've secured a lil' something of your own recently. Horses of the Gods indeed!
Here is the save, and good luck in your ventures.
____________________________________
Friedrich Psitalon,
President Term 2, People's Army of the Ladder |
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Octavian X
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Probably buried under piles of Literature, Biology, or Government homework
Jan 2002
time: 23:35
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To CDG:
quote:
Our eastern friends of the naiton of Eludicia:
Greetings from Apolyton! We hope this message finds the Creative Design Group well.
Unfortunately, it's been a while since our last contact, and in that period, some issues have arisen that need discussing. Our Foreign Affairs Ministry seems to be sleepy as of late: Our ambassador to your fair nation, Nuclear Master, seems to be taking a nap somewhere.
First off, we notices that an Elucidian settler is approaching the City of Olympus. We have plans to build a city between Olympus and Naked Aphrodite, and we need to make sure that our plans do not conflict with your plans. Please let us know where you plan to build your new city.
Second, we're wondering if Elucidia would be interested in the creation of a road joining our two great empires, with both nations constructing about half of the road itself. This road would be used for the trading of luxuries when and if such deals are worked out in the future. This proposal, at least on the Apolytonian side, is only preliminary. What are the thoughts of CDG on such a matter?
And, finally, we come to the matter of the relations between CDG and the People's Army of the Ladder. An Apolytonian archer in the area of Pumpkinland and Sven Fjord has observed a rather disturbing build up of units. We're wondering what's going on over here. Apolyton hasn't heard anything about this situation from PAL, though our best guess is that is has something to do with the ivory in that vicinity.
Well, that's about all we have to say at the moment. We await CDG's reply, as well as the oppertunity to discuss new issues that CDG wishes to bring up.
Thank you from your western neighbors,
~Octavian X
Consul of Apolyton |
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Octavian X
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Probably buried under piles of Literature, Biology, or Government homework
Jan 2002
time: 23:35
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From CDG:
quote:
1. The exact location of the city near Olympus, Naked Aphrodite, and 2
of your warriors hasn't been determined definately. I'm willing to be
flexible, and even am willing to consider moving down to the coast if I
have to. The only thing that is certain is the wish to place the
settler in that area, rather than move to a completely different
location on the map. Maybe you could tell me where you wish to build
the city, and I'll try to adjust/negotiate an agreeable location?
I am interested in figuring out a specific border, if you want.
2. I am willing to consider a road, but maybe not at this moment. One
thing to work out ahead of time would be any luxury trade, so whether
or not any trade is possible is something to be discussed. Aside from
one ivory, I don't know of any luxuries you have. Its possible we have
Furs to trade, though.
3. Although it does have something to do with the ivory, I don't think
the situation with the People's Army of the Ladder will lead to armed
conflict (at least, I hope it won't). Right now, I'd call it a minor
annoyance. A few turns ago, I might have called it more, but things
seem to have been worked out fairly favorably for both sides.
On a final note, I would like to ask if you would have an interest in
coordinating future research paths, to ensure we don't go after the
same thing.
Hope that clears things up
Sincerely,
Louis XXIV
Foreign Minister of Elucidia |
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Octavian X
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Probably buried under piles of Literature, Biology, or Government homework
Jan 2002
time: 23:35
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quote:
It is our turn, and we still need to know where you intend to build a
city between Olympus and NA. Our plan right now is to build in two
possible locations. NW,NW,NW (possibly NW,NW,W) of Possumopolis and
N,NW,NW of Minesota. I believe that will still allow you to build a
city in that region. If our building strategy conflicts with yours in
some way, please let us know, so this can be worked out.
Thank You
Sincerely,
Louis XXIV
Foreign Minister of Elucidia (and pretty happy I only will have to do
that).
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conmcb25
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Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:35
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This was from 8-28 save:
quote:
Here is the save, gentlemen, and an answer to Con's questions.
I'm not sure if I'm clear on the total city count for CDG:
The capital, Minnesota, Sven Fjord, Reykjavik is what we see. Is there another you know about that we don't?
We concur with your analysis of the tech situation; we were unable to lure CDG off Mapmaking, but they don't have it yet.
Currently there are quite a few units by the ivory; we have a few by our new city of Pumpkinland, and there is a spear in Sven Fjord, as well as a pair of warriors spread north of it.
We will be sending a road out of Pumpkinland towards you - west and then southwest - so we were planning on using the gold hill and mountain W,SW from Meeting Mountain in order to watch for barbs. Are there any around that you know of right now?
Cobra is on a mapping expedition like your own, partially for lack of a better thing to do, and partially to speed up the process of sorting our areas of land concern.
Our preparations for the date (T-minus 21 turns by our count?) continue well, and we see you've secured a lil' something of your own recently. Horses of the Gods indeed!
Here is the save, and good luck in your ventures. |
Latest from F-P with the save sent today:
quote:
Sorry about the delay; our backup turnplayer dropped the ball.
There is a barbarian camp north of Meeting Mountain that we're going to allow to remain for recruitment purposes - we'll keep it under control, we promise.
Also, a long time ago you all mentioned a siege road towards CDG - has anything become of that?
Good luck.
Fried |
Last edited by conmcb25 on 09-09-2004 at 10:51
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conmcb25
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Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:35
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OK I finally got to have a chat with F-P and adressed some of his questions:
quote:
PTAGuildmaster: psst.
PTAGuildmaster: At some point soon, we need to sit down and have the border talk
PTAGuildmaster: We estimate that in 16 turns the most efficient placements for us will be in the "no settle" zone, so we ought to wrangle that out.
conmcb25: OK
PTAGuildmaster: not going to be a fun issue, I'm sure
conmcb25: I owe you some other answers as well
PTAGuildmaster: but we're literally expanding like mad over here. 4 turns per settler adds up fast.
conmcb25: I just have been busy
PTAGuildmaster: other answers? ::Looks puzzled::
conmcb25: Some other questions you have asked in your turn sending emails
PTAGuildmaster: oh, righto
conmcb25: Like the seige road with CDG.
conmcb25: We are trying to work this out right now.
conmcb25: Under the guise of a "trade road".
PTAGuildmaster: that was more a curiousity than anything
conmcb25: Well you asked :-)
conmcb25: Common curtesy dictates that we should answer :-)
PTAGuildmaster: heh
conmcb25: There currently is a fourth CDG city
conmcb25: Give me a second and Ill give you a bearing
PTAGuildmaster: we can see...
PTAGuildmaster: Svcen's Fjord
PTAGuildmaster: Reykjavik
PTAGuildmaster: Minnesota (though we know the name from you)
PTAGuildmaster: and obviously the capital is out there.
PTAGuildmaster: that's all we know about
PTAGuildmaster signed off at 9:25:23 PM.
conmcb25: F-P???
Previous message was not received by PTAGuildmaster because of error: User PTAGuildmaster is not available.
PTAGuildmaster signed on at 9:47:22 PM.
conmcb25: Hes baaaaaaaaack :-)
PTAGuildmaster: I juggle names a lot
PTAGuildmaster: Firaxis email, teaching email, personal email, Civ email
conmcb25: Gimme 5 minutes to send some emails and Ill be back
conmcb25: Not me just two work and home BRB
conmcb25: OK Zarigueya (the Capitol) is 3,3,3,3 of Minnesota
conmcb25: And Possumopolis is....
PTAGuildmaster: Possumopolis, eh
conmcb25: 2,2,2,1 of Minnesota
PTAGuildmaster: so they have six total, then
conmcb25: Ya we are kind of laughing at the names as well
PTAGuildmaster: not exactly a robust rate of expansion; well below what we predicted
conmcb25: 6, Hmmm lemme check
PTAGuildmaster: or is it 5
conmcb25: No 5 but they have a settler at about.......
conmcb25: 1,1,1,1 of Minnesota
PTAGuildmaster: towards you then
conmcb25: Unescorted believe it or not
PTAGuildmaster: we can't see any of that yet
conmcb25: Yep
PTAGuildmaster: that's where Cobra is heading
conmcb25: OK
PTAGuildmaster: we're trying to get a feel for the borders in case something happens
PTAGuildmaster: that we might want that info
conmcb25: The capitol and Possum are on the coast
conmcb25: possum is where the coast turns west
PTAGuildmaster: don't know about that area yet
conmcb25: Well that will give you an idea
PTAGuildmaster: that barb camp near the no-settle zone is going nuts by the way
PTAGuildmaster: 2 barb horses since it spawned 4 turns ago
PTAGuildmaster: and a barb warrior
PTAGuildmaster: 0_o
conmcb25: O-o?
PTAGuildmaster: nono
PTAGuildmaster: 0_o
conmcb25: ahh
PTAGuildmaster: as in, eyes raised to different angles in great surprise
PTAGuildmaster:
conmcb25: We will leave it alone and let you harvest
conmcb25: We have our front row seat and are now happy ;-)
PTAGuildmaster: take us a few to get into position, unfortunately, having to whack them early
PTAGuildmaster: let us know if you see anything relevant, we were heading Doc Shot up there
PTAGuildmaster: will plop him on the western mountain instead
conmcb25: OK
conmcb25: Lemme do a quick barb check that was another question you had a while back.
PTAGuildmaster: I gotta duck out, I'm afraid
conmcb25: OK
conmcb25: More later
PTAGuildmaster: catch you later. lemme know when you want to set up the dread chat
PTAGuildmaster: ::grimace::
conmcb25: OK
conmcb25: Its gonna be tough to get my guys to agree on anything south of the no settle zone
PTAGuildmaster: I think the no settle zone is as far as we'd want to go
conmcb25: we just see to many ways for you guys to go north and east
PTAGuildmaster: but at the rate we're expanding, we'd have cities there in maybe 18-20 turns
PTAGuildmaster: I think there's talk of setting a second city into settler mode too, since we're ahead of horsemen production predictions
PTAGuildmaster: and CDG is running behind on expected city count
PTAGuildmaster: we figured they'd have 8-9 by now. heh
conmcb25: Kind of makes you wonder if you really need Pyramids?
PTAGuildmaster: why wouldn't we? GA Trigger and 15 or so free granaries?
conmcb25: True and happiness issues at emporer
conmcb25: ;-)
PTAGuildmaster: if we don't get it, it'll be Sumeria who does
conmcb25: true
PTAGuildmaster: and I'd prefer to keep that kind of power on our continent
conmcb25: Im just wondering if a different wonder would help more
conmcb25: *Thinking out loud*
PTAGuildmaster: more than the Pyramids? ::stare::
conmcb25: True
PTAGuildmaster: more than half growth time in every city?
conmcb25: dam wireless
conmcb25: :-)
PTAGuildmaster: We're not going to turn around and bite you guys after CDG is going if you're worrying. We intend to respect the alliance through to the end.
conmcb25: No Im just thinking out loud
PTAGuildmaster: though one of us may want to think about the Great Library as a defensive build
conmcb25: With the growth you have maybe a happiness wonder would help more
conmcb25: But then MOI is not my strenght
PTAGuildmaster: me either
conmcb25: Bullshitting is ;-)
PTAGuildmaster: hehe
PTAGuildmaster: alright, I gotta skat
PTAGuildmaster: ciao ciao
conmcb25: cya more later
PTAGuildmaster signed off at 10:12:33 PM. |
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:35
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sent to F-P
quote:
FP,
1) Borders:
We've mentioned in chat where we want the border to be. We want it on the narrow strip of land between the two large landmasses, somewhere just south of Crudetown.
You need to send us your proposal for a border, and do so soon.
We can then correspond and meet in chat if needed. Frankly, my team's diplomacy department has been dropping the ball a lot lately, and I won't be free to chat until Tues or Weds night, so let's get things going now.
2) The War on CDG:
Plan to take Sven's Fjord, Reyjavak, and the capital. We will take the other 3 cities. You may hold them or raze them, your call. But we feel that speed and a blitz mentality is the best approach for efficiently wiping these guys out.
At this time CDG *still* does not possess The Wheel or Masonry. We will try to find out what they're researching.
3) The Relationship between us:
Right now we could kill CDG by ourself. Their development has been slow and clumsey and other than their practice of building vet units, they seem to pose no signifigant threat. Thus, I need to strongly caution your team about building too many military units. You should slow or stop your buildup and focus on temples, libraries, courthouses, and markets.
Why? I could go into the economics and the sheilds and commerce wasted by having an unweildy and expensive army sitting around for nothing, but I'm sure you know that. If your military is too big it's a waste AND more importantly it's a threat.
What really trouble us is that your military will be positioned right next to us, and members of your team are going to call for an attack on us. It's inevitable. It's in your blood and psyche. Your nation is so damn powerful right now and your people know that. The posts will come down saying, "Why don't we just kill Poly and move onto round 2?" And you're going to find it hard to ignore that.
Right now our nations are at average strength to each other, and that's fine for the present peace, but maintaining such a high military strength is already causing us to be over our support values and keeping up with PAL is going to keep us going over, and cause us to ultimately waste commerce as we keep up as the game moves on.
After CDG falls there's going to continue to be an arms race. Our status as the little dog to your big dog doesn't help us sleep well at night. So long as the potential threat remains, we will be in arms race mode.
My point is this: You are in a better position to control the tensions that will ultimately rise between us. We do not pose any sort of threat to you, but you clearly pose a threat to us. That road you're building poses a VERY real threat to us. Your messages protesting us watching you build the road and trying to mislead us about barb farming clearly pose a threat to us. The little hairs on the back of my neck are sticking straight up, and my spidey sense is tingling.
What am I asking? First off, you guys should seriously consider abandoning the Poly Invasion Highway. If you want a trade route we can build a harbor or build one after CDG is toast. Right now, we have not linked up our extra lux, we don't plan to anytime soon (we have a ton of higher worker priority tasks), and our cities are not at the size that we need a 3rd lux.
Second, you guys should consider building cities NW of Psitalongrad where there's better land and less corruption, than building them down here by us. You could also build south of Thumptown. You guys have got to be well over your OCN. I know that denying land to an enemy is common practice but we're NOT the enemy (I hope). We need land for future growth and even though our growth is much slower than yours, we will continue to expand. We'd also like some breathing room between us, to keep the tensions down.
Third, Build the Great Lighthouse. Change your focus to exploration and science, so that we can get to the other civs' land faster in case we have to force an invasion. Get ahead on the tech game so that we can both get into the middle ages (we give you our free tech) and we can tear off ahead of the other civs.
Right now we are going forward with our plans, but the reservations are very real and the suspicions are genuine. We are becoming nervous about attacking CDG and being partnered with a much more powerful team that has a cut-throat military mindset. We are not asking you to do anything that could possibly endanger your people, instead we are asking you to think and plan long-term for the last stage of this game (where we work together to eliminate one of the distant teams), and that we work together long-term to prosper in the bigger game that will occur after this one. Killing CDG is a foregone conclusion, but us staying allied is not. We need to work on the latter.
The payoff for not backstabbing us isn't just keeping a good reputation, it's also keeping a good friendship. I think it's a good test for us. If we make it peacefully through the CDG war, we will have learned to better trust each other, and we will both have more confidence in the long-term viability of this relationship. And most importantly, we will have a devoted friend and ally in the main game that follows this one.
So, please send us a border proposal in the next few days. We can then meet and chat about it perhaps Weds? But also consider my requests. Our team responds to your actions. You are the leader in this alliance. We will be either put at ease or put under pressure by your actions, despite your actual intentions. The ball is in your court.
--Togas |
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conmcb25
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Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:35
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Reply to Togas's letter above is here:
quote:
Please find the savegame attached, and here is our reply to the missive sent by Togas a few days prior. - Fried
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Esteemed brother Togas and citizens of Apolyton:
We appreciate you coming to us with your concerns, that we may better allay them now in smaller form then later when they may be insurmountable. We will deal with the issues you present one at a time, and then propose a few actions – rather than just intentions – so that we can put these concerns to rest one at a time.
1) Borders – Your nation wishes to see the border just south of Crudetown, while we were expecting Meeting Mountain to be the original border. Clearly, we both have a problem with the other’s idea, so perhaps if we simply divided the disputed region in half. This would have the benefit of splitting the luxuries evenly; we would supply you with silk and you supply us with wine, while we both have furs and ivory of our own. Our nation, it seems, would prefer to keep Pumpkinville as our own, but would have absolutely no problem with you settling in close proximity to the township.
2) Regarding CDG – we forsee no problem with the three objectives you have stated. We will of course hold the towns to give to you as soon as possible, as razing them would be counterproductive to the alliance, and we find it most unlikely that CDG would be able to retake them. Because none of CDG’s cities have culture, flips are also a non-issue.
3) Our relationship – this, we suppose, is the crux of the issue and effectively draws back upon the points above. The problem as we see it is one of misunderstood identity. MP has always been a realm – at least to those outside of it – of ruthless warmongering, of vicious, bloody battles that come to a horrible conclusion. This is ironically a common misunderstanding. MP is in truth scarcely more bloody than SP – it is simply that the conflicts are direct, quick, and final, rather like the battle with CDG will be. Frivolous or ill-advised war is one of the hallmarks of the least intelligent MP members, and none of same are in control of PAL. As is our custom, we will tell you plainly how we see both sides of the “post-CDG continent” issue.
Attacking Apolyton: Yes, it is certainly true and possible that after going for CDG, we could direct our troops to race along the south coast, outpacing your troops returning home, while roaring in a new force of newly built troops on the constructed trade road, and the consequences for this would probably be pretty devastating. (A hypothetical plan the diplomat came up with just now, not a long-term plan we’ve been considering.) Examine what that would accomplish, however – PAL would have immediately seriously alienated the only team we have any real friendly ties with, and suddenly set our continent into flames at a time when building would be wise. The success of the war is also something that would come into question. Were we to strike, the immediate damage would probably be significant, but the ultimate success is another matter. We can have hordes of quick, light troops, but lacking iron, you bear both the more imposing defender, and the more sure attacker in swordsmen. Horsemen are fine in the field, but hoplites behind walls make quick work of horsemen. So it is rather likely that we would take perhaps two or three cities at most, and then you would hold firm. Shortly thereafter, you would begin fielding medieval infantry, and then knights. Our lack of iron would become a serious issue at that time, and the war would go most poorly for us – we would probably end up trading cities for time while attempting to research muskets. SHU/GWT would arrive to see a continent locked in a bitter stalemate, and then would pick and choose their targets. Yes, we could choose this road. This is not, however, what MP is about – we view this as a very unwise and risky war, and whatever else MP is about : we do not pick our battles unwisely.
Peace with Apolyton: In this outcome, after the CDG war ends, we cede their cities to you and retire to our lands and to the power of our traits to develop them. Our cities are quite large, and so we have both reason and desire to secure the last luxury on the continent – your wines. Peace grants us this resource far more swiftly and certainly than war. We benefit from a research partner who is both solid in traits and skilled in infrastructure. APO/PAL would be the ones to make contact overseas, rather than vice versa, which puts both our teams at a great advantage over our peerage. Lastly – and while we hold no illusions, as you do not – about the nature of the finals, it is still both prudent and cunning to have a team that you are at least on good terms with in that environment. One of the basic tenants of MP: The AI may not remember the last game, but a human does. This is something that I think most non-MP folk do not realize about MP. Are we brutally direct? Absolutely. Do we serve our own aims? Unquestionably. Those aims, however, need not diverge from yours. When we realized that there were three teams on this continent, we immediately realized the benefits of removing one. Our leaders remember the unpredictable nature of CDG in the past, and the self-serving, but predictable in that regard, behavior of Apolyton.
The ultimate truth is that a war between APO and PAL would be absolutely unclear in outcome, because our skills and troops are very different; indeed, our tactics and views on attack and defense are different. You may view this situation as “Big Dog, Little Dog” but we view it as “Quantity vs Quality.” Your troops are better; we have, and can produce, much more. Therefore it is not prudent for either PAL or APO to engage in such a war, but to band together to strike at what is almost certainly a diplomatically tense continent - the likely strained relations of SHU and GWT. There, we will find our victory and advancement.
These are our genuine thoughts and intentions. You are correct, however, in that actions, not words, rule the day. Let us, then, speak of actions.
You express concern about our barb hunting misleading you. You may investigate the barb camp with your own eyes – it is directly south (3 tiles) of the colonized silk. It has produced two horsemen (both slain) and a warrior which still guards it. Our slave hunter was unfortunately located by Wtibia, and is in the process of relocating while we commission another to “forage” in the Wtibia region. As of this writing, a third barbarian horseman has spawned in the camp. "Restless" barbarians indeed!
You express concern about the trade road. While this road – and the wines we hope to acquire from it – are very important to us, we certainly have no wish to alarm you. Indeed, we are only building this road because we were under the impression it was desired. If you will recall, this road was originally agreed upon as connecting at Meeting Mountain, but when it was clear you would not be able to fulfill your side of the arrangement immediately, we took it upon ourselves to help out, lending what slight excess we have to spare. You may choose to think of this road as a vulnerability, but we considered it an asset for you - now your expansion to the north-northeast, after CDG falls, will be much swifter. While you may not need the silks immediately, we would certainly like to grant them to you at the earliest convenience, so there is no possible mix-up that wastes your time and resources later.
Here, then, is an action I would propose. Allow us to continue the road, but you may take any units you wish – hoplite, warrior, archer, sword or horse – and blockade it in as many places as you wish, as long as it is not on the route to and from Pumpkinville (for obvious reinforcement reasons.) You say that your workers are overtasked at the moment and that more wines are unlikely – then I would propose this action: Allow us to pay for an embassy, and grant us right of passage. Our two workers – unescorted – will follow precisely the route you tell us to follow, with no deviation, and allow us to hook up the wines. This seems to be a relatively “safe” operation – true, an embassy does allow a certain degree of vulnerability, but this goes both ways. We, unlike you, have a great deal of coastline to defend and coastal cities, and thus are far more at risk for a sudden naval strike that is well-informed about the contents of a city. Also, consider that you have deferred mapmaking and have (at least as far as we know) only one coastal city, which we have not even a clear access to, and neither of us plans to build a harbor shortly – but our empire runs high on lux because of our need for another luxury. If we seem overeager, it is only so that we can turn down the lux rate and increase our research, to further our mutual goals. If such an agreement is unacceptable to you, allow us to transmit to you two workers by trade for the express purpose of hooking up the wines and then returning them to us in good health.
You express concern about a post-CDG arms race. I’m not sure that this is likely, as we would probably only build troops if we suddenly found ourselves weak to you and you gave us a glib explanation of some kind, but this is the action I would propose to solve the problem. Once the war is completed, let us move all non-garrison or barb-removal troops (the contents of both war stacks) to an agreed upon location, where we can monitor the size of each other’s stack. Further, let us both choose locations in each other's territories, subject to agreement, where we can monitor our neighbor's lands. A combination of a sentinel net and an in-territory monitoring system would probably do a great deal for peace in both our empires. (We are suggesting warriors or spears for such a purpose, obviously.) I’m probably talking on the order of 8-10 sentinel units, but PAL feels that the support costs incurred are trivial in comparison to the safety of our alliance. Would such a system be foolproof? Absolutely not. Would it be possible to circumvent? Very probably. It is, however, an action, a step in a direction of trust. We would also humbly and politely point out that we have already shown you considerable trust in the area of our core cities, and also our newest expansions. It is not the nature of the betrayer to show such trust. It is ironic that you feel threatened by PAL when we consider ourselves only slightly your military superior, and view askance our ironless future. I think both sides, in this regard, may be being influenced by the most worried and paranoid members too much. A conflict between us serves no reasonable reward and far too much risk when together the results of this game are admittedly longer, but far more assured.
We also offer this action if concern about excessive troop buildup is an issue: if you feel that CDG may be slain now, let us do so, NOW, and so move more readily into the far more important stage of infrastructure. We would need perhaps 3 or 4 turns to move all the needed pieces into place – 5 turns at the most – but then we could be ready to strike. The choice is yours, but PAL stands ready. If CDG's defense is as thin as some of our members believe, in 10 turns CDG could be a thing of the past, and we may get on to the business of monitoring each other's strength in a safe and cordial manner.
You express concern about our OCN. I think somewhere, misinformation has occurred: we are not, in fact, over that value at the present time. Even if we were, there is a good bit of space between the OCN and the “true” OCN – the point at which new cities become genuinely detrimental. Our next city IS in fact likely to go up in the “canal region” as we refer to the northlands, but you must remember that every four turns, a new settler issues forth. The northlands will be FULL soon, even with the hosting of guest Anthea. She’s been up there quite some time. Hoping for a passing vessel from another landmass and “first dibs” at a contact, perhaps? You see, we are not fools, but we understand that your team serves their own interests, and do not object, so long as those interests do not seem counter to the alliance. You must also realize that the distance from our capital is actually not so far to the lands in the southwest, and this is much of their appeal. I do think that dividing the area of disputed lands in half, however, would satisfy us and we could consider the matter closed. We have some serious concern about the equal sharing of luxuries on the continent, but other than that, we are relatively open to negotiation.
Lastly, you express concern about our construction efforts, which is a bit puzzling. Surely you are not suggesting we abandon the Pyramids – which we strongly suspect, from the size of the Sumerian capital, we may be in competition for – so close to its completion? Our Golden Age has long been planned for, and our many cities will benefit tremendously from this wonder - and thus, indirectly, so shall you. To abandon it now would be truly bizzare move - we have no desire to see them in the hands of Sumeria, nor to lose our well-planned-for Golden Age. If you are suggesting a future build, we are very happy to inform you that the Lighthouse is indeed planned, and planned for the very city in which the Pyramids will be completed. (Perhaps if an embassy is established and the Pyramids are completed, you would like to verify this for yourselves?) Once the war with CDG is completed, our focus will absolutely be on infrastructure and exploration – anything else would be foolish, and counter to our mutual interests. We had considered another wonder as well elsewhere – perhaps the Library as a defensive build, or the Workshop as a financial measure (the upgrade costs without iron will be brutal, to be sure.) We look forward to working together with the diplomats of Apolyton on such future constructions - we are unsure as to who is dropping the ball, as Con has always fulfilled that role most admirably for us. Any question or concern we have addressed to him has been resolved in a quick and professional manner, and he does Apolyton credit.
To close, a personal note: On my time with the PTWISDG team, one thing we discussed early on was to play upon the Apolyton reputation as peaceful builders. A team’s perceived reputation does much to its diplomacy, but I think unfortunately the perceived reputation of PAL is perhaps TOO dramatic. Think of us not as a bloody berserker, but as Sun Tzu. Are we skilled in war? Never doubt it. Are we afraid of war? Not in the slightest. Do we engage in war foolishly, where the outcome is uncertain and the rewards less so? Never.
PAL has nothing to gain from APO’s demise except a seriously tarnished reputation. We consider the game largely won if our alliance remains intact. We would have a technological lead, “Free cities” for you and of course our large empire, wielded by two strong builder teams against foes that must have some discontent between them. Why would we choose to win with dishonor, when we can win with fellowship and dignity?
At some point, esteemed brothers of Apolyton, trust must be extended and established. We have extended all that we can see possible - you have a complete map of our lands, have had repeated opportunities to strike at our cities, and could easily trade your map to the other continent when the time came; and yet we continue to extend our trust to you. If you fear us now with our horses and empire, though we have done nothing to alarm you, what will you think when we are building our fleet to invade the other continent and are marshalling an army of cavalry? Will you fear us then, as well, though we have done nothing to earn your distrust? Our "nature", Apolyton brothers, is to use force as a means to an end - not to use force for the sake of it. Our end, as we have declared, is to go into battle alongside Apolyton, that we may at least have a cordial acknowledgement in the finals, if not a friendship of sorts.
A true friend is one you may place your back against when the blades flash in your face. We feel that we have offered our back to you already, and will continue to do so. We hope that by the time the blades of GWT and SHU flash, your back will be firmly set behind ours.
Sincerely,
Your Steadfast and Reliable Brothers of the People’s Army of the Ladder |
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25-06-2004 11:07
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