09-04-2004 09:37									#1
	FA Correspondence Thread Full PM-box? Change here!

For all foreign affairs corrospondence.

Only post the actual corrospondence here. Discuss it in the appropriate CIV Diplo Discussion thread

Edit by Kloreep: Some early correspondance that didn't get in here

First Chat with CDG

First Message from Louis XXIV

NAP Proposal from Louis XXIV

Edit by WB: Fixed another case of Con's atrocious spelling. Changed thread title from "FA Corrospondence thread" to "FA Correspondence Thread"

Last edited by WhiteBandit on 27-06-2004 at 08:39

	09-04-2004 09:41									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

This was a BIG Deal from F_P at PAL:

quote: conmcb25: Whats up? PTAGuildmaster: Um, don't know quite how to run this by you PTAGuildmaster: so I'll give you the straight form. conmcb25: Fair enough PTAGuildmaster: We have a blithering ****ing moron on our team who apparently works for the NSA, and he decrypted your pass. PTAGuildmaster: He offered that information to myself and the MoW conmcb25: OH Jesus PTAGuildmaster: We both rejected it and he's immediately been ejected from the team PTAGuildmaster: But obviously there's a potential problem here - we wanted to talk to you guys before going to the UN with full disclosure conmcb25: Yes you did the right thing PTAGuildmaster: (And in about an hour he's going to be kicked from the ladder altogether, likely) conmcb25: Idiot PTAGuildmaster: There are people asking for his home address PTAGuildmaster: The ladder is home to some aggressive folks PTAGuildmaster: :P conmcb25: Ha Ha PTAGuildmaster: what worries me most is that A) He can now give that to anyone conmcb25: OK give me a couple of minutes and let me get some of my guys in chat so we can discuss PTAGuildmaster: and B) If he decrypted it, he has a decryption key for ALL the saves now conmcb25: Do you ever chat at the Apoly Chat room, MIRC? PTAGuildmaster: as in, he can easily go get GWT's or Grenny PTAGuildmaster: I can conmcb25: OK Give me a few conmcb25: minutes PTAGuildmaster: not an MIRC wizard but I can connect. heh PTAGuildmaster: yep PTAGuildmaster: partially afk, lemme know conmcb25: Im trying to chat up the other consel online right now. conmcb25: Im talking to the team right now, well one of my MOI guys anyway PTAGuildmaster: k PTAGuildmaster: And just to let you know - Whatever you guys decide I understand and won't take it personally. Depending on your point of view this is a "red" level expulsion offense PTAGuildmaster: We're not happy about that, but we'll own up to it. conmcb25: I know but we should work something out conmcb25: E_T says you should report the guy to the NSA PTAGuildmaster: not a bad idea PTAGuildmaster: I dunno if he's current or former PTAGuildmaster: For obvious reasons we aren't on speaking terms anymore PTAGuildmaster: :P conmcb25: He thinks he may have some "good stuff" on his opersonal PC which is a BIG NO NO PTAGuildmaster: how interesting. conmcb25: Ya, being a governement weenie and a reservist, I can tell you this is a major OPSEC violation and could cost him his job conmcb25: seriously PTAGuildmaster: is it possible he's using old/outdated software and is a former? conmcb25: Its possible but still PTAGuildmaster: yeah conmcb25: IT SHOULD NOT BE ON HIS PERSONAL PC. PTAGuildmaster: ::wonders if he can find Bonehed's real name:: conmcb25: I just got rid of some 486's at work.. conmcb25: Been sitting around for ages conmcb25: And no classified stuff conmcb25: I still had to pull the hard drives before I excessed em. PTAGuildmaster: heh conmcb25: What this guy may have is a LOT MORE SERIOUS PTAGuildmaster: yeah PTAGuildmaster: sec, gonna see if we have any "real" data on him PTAGuildmaster: nah, all we have is his yahoo email address and a picture. heh conmcb25: OK we came to a consensus conmcb25: OK as far as we are concerned this matter is closed conmcb25: Its up to you if you want to bring it up at the UN. conmcb25: We trust you and that was unanimous from the 6 or 7 guys I had in chat :-) PTAGuildmaster: geez PTAGuildmaster: I'm gonna have an attack of conscience if we ever backstab you PTAGuildmaster: LOL PTAGuildmaster: kidding conmcb25: Just remember who your firends are :-) PTAGuildmaster: heh PTAGuildmaster: duly noted PTAGuildmaster: I'm gonna run it by a vote of PAL to see if they want to talk to the UN about it. conmcb25: OK conmcb25: Now here is something to consider conmcb25: We may want to put out a "wanted poster" so to speak on this guy conmcb25: Make sure the site admins have his IP addy so he cant join another team. PTAGuildmaster: I think that's unlikely knowing Bonehed, but it's certainly possible. conmcb25: But if you guys go public at the UN, we are just going to play it down and say as far as we are concerned its a done deal. PTAGuildmaster: k, don't mind admitting that's good to hear conmcb25: Well we quite frankly think it sucks for your whole team to suffer because of this dick head. conmcb25: And we would like to make sure it doesn't come to that

	21-04-2004 00:56									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

CDG NON- AGRESSION PACT
Fair citizens of the Creative Design Group,

We at Apolyton do agree to your Non- Agression Pact. However, to show our good faith, we propose that the pact last for twenty turns instead of ten. We have decided that cooperation with CDG is in our best interests.
We also propose that we modify our tech plans in such a way as to trade in the future. We plan on working on Philosophy. We are doing this because we feel that it would be advantagious to both of us if we (Poly) go for Philosophy (Our Economic advisors believe that it's the best, too). As the only "Scientific" civ in the Group (and the game for that matter), we stand a much better chance of generating a Scientific Great Leader, and it is in our Groups' best interest that the best chances are put forth.
Other than that, we wish both teams good fortune with what the gods have provided for us.

Regards,
Vander, Ambassador of Apolyton



CDG TECH TRADE DEAL
In response to your offer of a tech trade, this team is very keen to the idea. We were also going to submit a proposal, but it seems you're a bit quicker off the gun. Regardless, we at Poly offer this in return to your offer:

- CDG finishes Writing, gifts to Poly
- CDG starts on Code of Laws, tells Poly how long it will take
- Poly finishes Iron Working, gifts to CDG along with Pottery
- Poly researches some cheap tech to fill in time only if needed. (for example, if CDG doesn't have writing or if it would take less time to finish philo than CoL) Otherwise, Poly immediately starts Philosophy.
- CDG finishes CoL, gifts to Poly
- Poly finishes Philosophy, gets Republic as free tech, gifts both to CDG


Techs given to CDG = IW, Pottery, Philosophy, Republic
Techs given to Poly = Writing, CoL

All techs are to be GIFTED so as to not cause unnecessary delay.

With this plan, both our teams shall get Republic. With the citizens behind the leaders of our nations, our economies and production capabilites should be vastly improved over that of our opponents.

I look forward to your reply

Vander, Ambassador of Apolyton

	21-04-2004 00:56									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

CDG NON- AGRESSION PACT
Fair citizens of the Creative Design Group,

We at Apolyton do agree to your Non- Agression Pact. However, to show our good faith, we propose that the pact last for twenty turns instead of ten. We have decided that cooperation with CDG is in our best interests.
We also propose that we modify our tech plans in such a way as to trade in the future. We plan on working on Philosophy. We are doing this because we feel that it would be advantagious to both of us if we (Poly) go for Philosophy (Our Economic advisors believe that it's the best, too). As the only "Scientific" civ in the Group (and the game for that matter), we stand a much better chance of generating a Scientific Great Leader, and it is in our Groups' best interest that the best chances are put forth.
Other than that, we wish both teams good fortune with what the gods have provided for us.

Regards,
Vander, Ambassador of Apolyton



CDG TECH TRADE DEAL
In response to your offer of a tech trade, this team is very keen to the idea. We were also going to submit a proposal, but it seems you're a bit quicker off the gun. Regardless, we at Poly offer this in return to your offer:

- CDG finishes Writing, gifts to Poly
- CDG starts on Code of Laws, tells Poly how long it will take
- Poly finishes Iron Working, gifts to CDG along with Pottery
- Poly researches some cheap tech to fill in time only if needed. (for example, if CDG doesn't have writing or if it would take less time to finish philo than CoL) Otherwise, Poly immediately starts Philosophy.
- CDG finishes CoL, gifts to Poly
- Poly finishes Philosophy, gets Republic as free tech, gifts both to CDG


Techs given to CDG = IW, Pottery, Philosophy, Republic
Techs given to Poly = Writing, CoL

All techs are to be GIFTED so as to not cause unnecessary delay.

With this plan, both our teams shall get Republic. With the citizens behind the leaders of our nations, our economies and production capabilites should be vastly improved over that of our opponents.

I look forward to your reply

Vander, Ambassador of Apolyton

Accepted!!

	27-04-2004 23:46									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Ok finally the chat with F-P, this took place approximately 6 hours ago. (Right before we both had to go to work) I sustituted some "$"'s for "s''s for obvious reasons and edited some banter back and forth between myself and F-P . The "meat" is posted below:

quote: conmcb25: You there? PTAGuildmaster: LOL PTAGuildmaster: yes PTAGuildmaster: Okay, short version and we can make this a "semi-official" conversation conmcb25: OK PTAGuildmaster: My folks like the tech treaty and will be willing to offer it on our turn, but we'd like a 20 turn no-trade clause. We're not total diplo-noobies. PTAGuildmaster: We think you weren't weird enough to research Warrior Code. PTAGuildmaster: :P conmcb25: OK I dont see a problem with that PTAGuildmaster: As for the exchange of location, "yes if they do same" is the feeling conmcb25: OK PTAGuildmaster: ditto trade of contact info conmcb25: We are SW of that mountain/hut PTAGuildmaster: we're north of the mountain/hut conmcb25: not sure on the number of tiles PTAGuildmaster: friendly bonus info: be very careful heading north, we've left a decent-sized mess of angry barbs up there conmcb25: but a general direction should be good for now conmcb25: ok PTAGuildmaster: I'd say moderate odds on death for a warrior, if you're running a Hop yer home free. conmcb25: ok PTAGuildmaster: uh, contact trades are also "if you exchange too" conmcb25: Well lets be safe on this one. PTAGuildmaster: well, not REAL contact trades conmcb25: We contacted "a Civ " to the SE of that mountain. PTAGuildmaster: aha, I see PTAGuildmaster: as for research directions... conmcb25: Ok the CIV you contacted PTAGuildmaster: We have no contacts currently. conmcb25: OK got ya conmcb25: You will fairly soon PTAGuildmaster: k. the research info... conmcb25: OK PTAGuildmaster: our people are.. PTAGuildmaster: hmm. PTAGuildmaster: Reluctant on this one - they're paranoid. I don't know why, but they think it's dangerous info. PTAGuildmaster: I think I know the answer to this PTAGuildmaster: but I have to ask PTAGuildmaster: "Why do you want to know?" conmcb25: If we continue to tech cooperate in the future it would be nice for us to NOT both research the same tech conmcb25: Its a waste of beakers conmcb25: simple as that PTAGuildmaster: ::Nod:: I agree. I will relay that and hopefully it will allay the concerns of a few folks. PTAGuildmaster: I expect we'll be able to get back to you on that info favorably and soon. The vote was already swinging pro-Apolyton. PTAGuildmaster: We just have a lot of suspicious types; your friendly overtures have helped. conmcb25: OK conmcb25: Where do you see our relationship going? Because quite frankly we have some doubters in our forum on the wisdom of hooking up with your team. PTAGuildmaster: heh PTAGuildmaster: okay, unofficially... PTAGuildmaster: let me quote you a suggestion from our forum this morning PTAGuildmaster: this is not $hit, exact quote by someone else in power here PTAGuildmaster: At this time is more opportune for both of us to begin our relationship for the conquest of this game. We are the two most powerful teams, we both get along, hell we owe them after the Bone incident. I say to my fellow PAL's that we if even just the ministers/vp and Not-MoI agree. That we proceed to create a user-room in GS, or use Internet Relay Chat to set up a meet with the Ambassadors, Leaders, Ministers whoever wants in, To begin negotiating for an alliance with Apolyton, if this is acceptable PTAGuildmaster: we can create the coordination of techs, Give positions, coordinate militarily and work to destroying the rest. PTAGuildmaster: Basically, some of our folks are afraid of "apolyton builder power" but the largest sentiment is "Let's try to get in bed with them and beat the 3rd civ off the continent" conmcb25: Well that is what I have been pushing for in our forums PTAGuildmaster: If you want objective quotable facts, here: PTAGuildmaster: We have no intention of wanting to mix things up with the "Pike UU." conmcb25: Thats why we choose it……… PTAGuildmaster: We also see it this way: in an elimination environment like this, you take the biggest dog PTAGuildmaster: and you ally with the second biggest dog PTAGuildmaster: and you win the game. PTAGuildmaster: THAT part we know a lot about. PTAGuildmaster: And we know Apolyton knows their $hit and attacking them would be painful PTAGuildmaster: so we're going after the next easiest target conmcb25: Well that good news and should alleviate some concerns at my forum. Are you guys going to assign a diplo guy?, so far you got me from Apoly. PTAGuildmaster: I might be able to swing being the ambassador myself, if you think that would be wise conmcb25: OK PTAGuildmaster: Tell your team that we said this: PTAGuildmaster: "We're good at early age war, but we also understand that it can be wasteful and unwise. Good at war means knowing not to engage, too." PTAGuildmaster: C'mon man, we have a JAVELIN THROWER. :P conmcb25: Dam good point PTAGuildmaster: We're barb harvesters. :P conmcb25: I LOVE the maya BTW conmcb25: Good choice conmcb25: OK I got to run conmcb25: What time you get home from work? conmcb25: and log in normally? PTAGuildmaster: uh conmcb25: CDT? PTAGuildmaster: I'll be around from about 6pm on CDT PTAGuildmaster: that work for you? conmcb25: Fine conmcb25: I may not be on till later (kids) conmcb25: but Im usually on by 2100CDT PTAGuildmaster: okay, great. PTAGuildmaster: I gotta get ready for work PTAGuildmaster: tell your guys that yes, PAL understands gangbang tactics PTAGuildmaster: but we also want a strong ally in the final game, too. :P conmcb25: Me too PTAGuildmaster: and that continent is too big for one team PTAGuildmaster: so why not share it with the honorable superbuilders? PTAGuildmaster: (and go cream the obnoxious german team) PTAGuildmaster: seriously, while sentiment has been to gangbang, we have way too many pro-Apolyton folks PTAGuildmaster: Civer Dan? Sperricles? Me? Mo-D? conmcb25: Good PTAGuildmaster: You think CiverDan would allow us to backstab you? :P conmcb25: I hope we can work something out PTAGuildmaster: Filibuster! conmcb25: Im PUSHING HARD PTAGuildmaster: hehe conmcb25: I am conmcb25: OK conmcb25: Gotta go and do the work thing

	28-04-2004 01:00									#6
	Get a bigger avatar today!

CDG asked how long we had until IW was done. I replyed:

Greetings,

We have about 13 turns to go until we get iron working.

While I'm here at CDG, the higher ups of the Apolyton team would like
us to have a chat sometime earlier this week (Mon- Tues). Get back to
us asap so we can get this underway. (FYI, we just want to make sure
we both answer any questions the other may have about the trade deal or
anything else.)

Regards,
Vander, Ambassador of Apolyton


Elucida will be happy to hold a chat with Apolyton today at 6:30PM EDT. Please tell us where you want to meet. If we don't receive anything from you before then, you will find us in the CDG chatroom.

- MRex


So there we go.

	28-04-2004 08:04									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

Letter just in from PAL:

quote: Distinguished Consuls and Citizens of Apolyton: You will notice that this turn we will send both The Wheel and Masonry from us as "accepted." This is not an error - we are effectively "giving" you these techs on our turn, and trusting you to "give" us your techs during your turn. We feel that there is more to gain in trust from this risk than to lose if you decide to "take our techs and run." Further in the spirit of trust and friendship, let us disclose to you how the People's Army of the Ladder perceives the current situation. We are not a duplicitous people and will be upfront - this is our way. We believe that the unspecified nation you have contact with is either the Elucidian nation, or the Webring nation - we do not believe your nation would have researched the tech "Warrior Code" at this juncture, since you are a nation of exceptional skill and the coincidence suggests a hut is unlikely. Both of these nations are at their most dangerous in the chivalric era. Both of these nations, according to our own intelligence efforts, are currently growing at a slower and weaker rate than any other - certainly slower than APO or PAL. You have informed us that this nation - whichever it may be - is southeast of "Meeting Mountain" and that you are southwest of same. We have the highest respect for your nation and its skills in infrastructure and building (we are relatively certain we know why your city has grown so large without dropping, for example) and we hope that you have considerable respect for our position and unique skills as well. It is the opinion of PAL that we stand here at a great juncture, of tremendous potential for the benefit of BOTH our nations. We believe that geo-strategically, we are uniquely placed to potentially collaborate against our third neighbor. We believe that this nation - whichever it may be - in its weakened state and threatening to be dangerous in the long-term, is ripe for aggression before it may grow to endanger us both. PAL is skilled in war - but we also recognize the great wisdom in alliance, and in peace. You need not be concerned of the fate of your nation after the fall of our other neighbor. We feel that there is ample land on this continent for both of our needs. We also feel that if it is likely that either Sumeria and China (two teams with historic hostility) or Sumeria and Elucidia (two teams historically not of stellar performance) on the other continent, the nations of PAL and APO together stand a tremendous chance of eliminating one of our other foes and ending this game. We feel that either of the above combinations of nations would be ripe to betray one another for a three-way alliance to finish the fourth nation. The People's Army of the Ladder and Apolyton are two nations with tremendously similar interests, and we have unique sets of skills that can only compliment each other. These are unique and bold times, and as such can be met only with bold words. We recognize that the Elucidian or Webring nation may be offering you the same pledge, but we would counsel you against it: They are a weak nation now and because they are probably closer to you than we are, potentially much more stifling. As you are no doubt aware, PAL is a very strong nation at this point, and we do not envision any limitations on the growth of our strength at this time. To combine forces with them against us would merely ensure the doom of this continent, and whoever survived the chaos of the other continent's invasion would do so only by luck, prayer, and the sort of conniving diplomacy which PAL holds itself above. Clearly, neither your nation, nor ours, would wish for that scenario. We have now offered you what we feel is a tremendous extension of trust and friendship. We hope that you recognize it as such, and embrace it with the same zeal. With respect to our esteemed peers, The People's of the Army of the Ladder.

Discuss in the PAL diplo thread

	30-04-2004 02:19									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Letter sent to PAL explaining the hut popping delay and trying to schedule a chat for this weekend.:

quote: Jesse Just wanted to let you know we did NOT pop the hut last turn, we will however pop it this turn. We just wanted to get that city built first so we wouldn't eliminate the chance , however remote , of a settler. Things are shaping up very nicely in the forums. It looks like the majority are favoring increased cooperation with PAL which will hopefully lead to an alliance. We are preparing a response to that fabulous letter you sent us, please compliment whomever wrote it. We are also talking about a chat maybe sometime this weekend? When are you guys available? We set up a channel on the apoly mIRC server just for diplo business so we can meet there unless you have a better idea. Please let me know. Hope all is well in Ladderland Steve k (conmcb25)

	30-04-2004 05:08									#9
	Chat w/ CDG Enter the AD-FREE zone

Important stuff Bolded

quote: MRex: hi there Vander: hello there Vander: well, are there any questions that your team has for us? MicaelisRex: yes Vander:lay 'em on me MicaelisRex:First, CDG would like to restructure our tech trade some. Specifically, we would like if you could gift us Pottery before we get Writing. MicaelisRex: Preferably next turn. Vander: Ok, I'll get right on that. MicaelisRex: Second, CDG is in favor of bringing us closer to an alliance with you guys. Tue Apr 27 18:35:52 2004:Louis_XXIV Login MicaelisRex: Welcome Louis Louis_XXIV: Hi Vander: hey MicaelisRex:Basically, the benefits of this is that by using our combined expertise not against each other, we can assure us both spots among the final 6 teams in game 2. Vander: We've been thinking of the same things. We don't know what is out there. We want to have a good ally in case someone like the German team is on our continent. They're liable to start something, I just know it. Louis_XXIV: I hope GWT is on our continent! o_O Vander: oh yea? why is that? MicaelisRex: Judging by the characteristics of our land, I'd say there is a good chance that there is a 3rd civ here somewhere. We haven't found one yet though. Louis_XXIV: I just don't feel like dealing with them. Vander: oh yea Vander: the PTW thing Louis_XXIV: lmao Vander: I'm on the CFC team for that one, and I can say that we're not the happiest we can be with ze germans MicaelisRex: Good thing GCA and GWT are separated this game. Louis_XXIV: I'm playing for cgn, so I think you can imagine we're considerably less happy Vander: oh very much so Vander: So in the event of a warmongering team is on our land, what do you guys think CGN will do? MicaelisRex: you mean CDG? Vander: yea sorry MicaelisRex: Depends on the circumstances. But if we didn't have to worry about you guys as well I'm sure we would be better off. Same with you not having to worry about double teaming. Vander: yea, that is the exact concern of our team. Although, the hopilite is a pretty good UU until the Beserkers come around MicaelisRex: We would rather not wage war right away since we will be able to enjoy TR as our gov and jump way out ahead of the third civ. Vander: yea, that's our plan as well Vander: The last thing we want is to drop out of the game in the first round. Imagine the reputation hit... MicaelisRex :Has your team come to any conclusions on the subject yet? MicaelisRex: Yes, we were the first to drop out last game... Vander: Which subject? MicaelisRex: Of a game long NAP or alliance. Donegeal JoinRoom:IDG-Chat MicaelisRex :hi Donegeal: Hi... Donegeal: Hmmmm.... Louis_XXIV: *welcome* Vander: yo Donegeal: I like this room... Vander: about the NAP Louis_XXIV: Donegeal, Play around with smiles when things become slow Donegeal: is there a list of smilies? Louis_XXIV: right click Louis_XXIV: where you write a message Vander: Apolyton likes it. It would be best for my team to keep up good relations with our neighbors. We have worked together well in the past, and it would be easy to keep that up Donegeal: :mischief: Louis_XXIV: Good to hear MicaelisRex: Excellent Vander: Personally, I'd want to have a good, solid alliance going between our teams Vander: (It keeps me working ) MicaelisRex: Consider the NAP proposed then, so your team can work on ratifying it now, if they haven't already. Vander: ok Donegeal: I thought we had a NAP already? MicaelisRex: we have a 20 turn one Louis_XXIV: this one will last much longer MicaelisRex: this would be a game long one Tue Apr 27 18:53:05 2004onegeal [1/] Msg:hmm.... Donegeal: interesting... Vander: I'll get a better proposal going, and work on the warmongers; get them to calm down. (They can be so annoying sometimes) Louis_XXIV: lol MicaelisRex: Some of you want to go to war with us? MicaelisRex: Donegeal: We have a big team with many opinions... Vander: it's just that we have guys that "want to keep the options open" Vander: don't worry MicaelisRex: Hopefully the peaceful minds will prevail, or we'll have no choice but to destroy you Vander: they're few in number and easly swayed by the majority opinion Vander: So once I get the councils onto the nap, we'll be golden MicaelisRex: Anything you wanted to ask us? Vander: How is it going? How's the team doing? Louis_XXIV: :rolleye: MicaelisRex: We're doing well. As you can see, we've built our second city. Donegeal: Congrats on Minn... good site location... Vander: very good MicaelisRex: we have it right now Vander: ok MicaelisRex: so you'll get it in a few hours most likely MicaelisRex: maybe less, FP is on right now Vander: cool Donegeal: ah... I'll be at work when we get it. Donegeal: dinner time... Vander: I'l prob be studying for tests Vander: or dinner Donegeal: later... Tue Apr 27 18:59:43 2004onegeal [0/] Logout:_ MicaelisRex: cya later Louis_XXIV: bye Vander: I think that's everything MicaelisRex: That's all we have Vander: us too Vanderg :well then, it's been fun guys, and productive

	02-05-2004 09:27									#10
	Inflate your Upload Space

Part 1 of chat with PAL. Note that the very first part is copy & pasted as I didn't start logging from the very beginning.

See my notes for a summary at the end of the log - as it was a very long chat--GK

Look at the end for a short summary by conmcb25

quote: [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] I have him listed [conmcb25] OK [conmcb25] Well then lets start [conmcb25] *con pounds the gavel* [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Alright. [Mo_D(PAL)] :ulls up a chair at the diplomatic bargaining table:: [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Allow me to introduce the PAL members here... [Godking_Rich] boom boom (echo) [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Mo-D, Vice President. [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] :grin: [Mo_D(PAL)] ::shakes everyone's hands:: [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Lord Phan, Minister of Picking Fights, Wars, and other random acts of violence [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Heroic, NOT-Minister of Interior, who minds our interior anyhow [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] :bow: [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] and me, I point and shout a lot and people seem to listen. [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] ::tips his hat:: [Kloreep] I have a blinking green star in my upper right corner now [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] you were "Friend listed" by me [conmcb25] im just a big blow hard that spams at apoly a lot [Kloreep] Ah [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] makes it easier to pick you out. [conmcb25] Ok the agenda [Kloreep] Don't forget you have other important qualities, con [Kloreep] You add humor to our day with your spelling [conmcb25] Ha ha [conmcb25] typing, its my bad typing I tell you! [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] so.... I think (not entirely sure) that you all called this shindig... what can we wee ladderites do for you this evening? [conmcb25] Ok tech research [Kloreep] PlayerSpy list? [Godking_Rich] Con is one of our consuls, and possibly the only one who has me beet for bad spelling. [conmcb25] We are both researching IW [Kloreep] With your typing, excuse me [conmcb25] Do e want to tech cooperate? [conmcb25] I assume so? [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Well, I guess that cuts to the center of the issue. [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] How friendly are we going to be? [Godking_Rich] Kloreep is our backup consul (we have three). they play the game and make all decisions. [Mo_D(PAL)] ::listens intently:: [conmcb25] i would say fiendly [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] I believe we've made our feelings on the matter relatively straightforward. We talk pretty straight. [conmcb25] The winds in our forum are shifting towards PAL [Godking_Rich] I am our interior guy. I look at worker crap. [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Worker Crap = powa [conmcb25] We LOVED the letter BTW [Godking_Rich] Long term. Short, a sword at the gate.... [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] yeah, we had a monkey dance on some keys awhile, and that came out [Mo_D(PAL)] [conmcb25] But to be honest there are still some who are cautious. [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] hella monkey, I tell ya [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Well, allow me to explain the thinking behind our proposal, if I may. [conmcb25] OK [conmcb25] I got a feeling F-P is a bottomline kind of guy [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] For simplicity's sake, let's identify the other civ: The Vikings. You'd have masonry if it was GWT. [Mo_D(PAL)] ( " ) nah - he's a bull****ter [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] So. [Mo_D(PAL)] but we like him anyway [conmcb25] Ok That could be very good intell [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Ladderites tend to take a "Long view" in games - we are only known as early-era warmongers, because if you cut someone down early, they're not in the way later. [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Thus, the "Long view" is often to do something abrupt early. [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] However, we're also not fools about the pitfalls of ancient war. [Godking_Rich] we are not sure if it is legal to ID them - the whole no diplomicy thing outside of game mechanics rules - but lets assume you are right and proceed from there. [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] :sounds good: [conmcb25] Exactly GK [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] If there's plenty of room and you have the means, infrastructure is obviously greater than war. [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] I will say that we have....a sufficient situation north of meeting mountain. [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] However, I think it likely that you and your other neighbor are somewhat closer. [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] We, think, rather. [Mo_D(PAL)] suspect [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] The intel weenies pour it into my head, I just talk. [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Thus it benefits YOU to remove that neighbor, particularly if that neighbor has a later UU - which they must, Viking or Chinese. [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] So the obvious question is "What's in it for us." [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] We have two excellent benefits here. One- ************************************************** ************* [Logging Started - 05/01/0104 20:31:42] [20:31:42] [20:31:42] * Logging chat to file: H:\PROGRAM FILES\GAMESPY ARCADE\Logs\Kloreep\PAL Diplomacy Chambers.txt [20:31:46] [20:31:46] [Godking_Rich] Lets just say that on a map this size, with the number of civs on it, we were very surprised to find a cultural border where we did. [20:32:10] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] If we assist you in this matter, it probably would endear us to some degree. [20:32:23] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Make no mistake - PAL is a nation which fundamentally believes and rests on solid alliances. [20:32:32] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Backstabbing is *fundamentally* viewed as unwise. [20:32:45] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Rather like a poprush- short term gain, long term consequence. [20:33:07] [Mo_D(PAL)] ::nods:: [20:33:09] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Also, the problem exists that if we are three on this land, the other has two. [20:33:18] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] A safe continent is a secure continent.... [20:33:30] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] And we find you all a lot easier to trust than say, you and the Vikings. [20:33:44] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Simple math, and some of our members remember the erratic nature of Elucidia historically. [20:33:52] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] ::Coughs and looks around:: [20:34:06] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] There is one other possibility, if I may be blunt. [20:34:14] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] YOU are much less of a backstab threat than they, and vice versa. [20:34:22] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] PAL's UU and traits are land-based. [20:34:24] [conmcb25] We are here and anxiously viewing every word [20:34:37] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] We thump along the ground, improve the ground, and generally love the ground. [20:34:46] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] You, too - COM/SCI, strong defensive UU. [20:35:07] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] The Vikings, on the other hand, are a tremendous backstab threat. [20:35:12] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Militaristic units. [20:35:20] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Seafaring boats to hit from any direction. [20:35:29] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] the western continent hits you.... they hit us. [20:35:31] [Godking_Rich] brb [20:35:44] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] We aren't afraid of the Vikings now. Later? Yes sir, anyone with a brain fears the Berserk. [20:35:58] [conmcb25] Agreed [20:36:02] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Simply - our UU can't shatter your empire, and nor can yours shatter ours. [20:36:09] [conmcb25] actully a big time agree [20:36:19] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] THEIRS can threaten both of ours... and what you say about their proximity says that they are likely to do it to you first. [20:36:28] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] So PAL gets a safer continent, and a reliable ally. [20:36:39] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] We think it likely given the French and German histories that we can convince a backstab there. [20:36:51] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] We think due to our shared roots, we are a more stable and likely alliance. [20:36:54] [(ZIP)Lord_Phan_GS] and we can then mop up the survivor between France and Germany [20:37:09] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Now the other side of the coin. [20:37:10] [Godking_Rich] Can you believe, UPS dropping off a package at this time of night? 9:30!!! WTF. [20:37:12] [conmcb25] If they dont do the job for us [20:37:18] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Let's say this goes bad. [20:37:26] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] You all are actually already in bed with the Vikings. [20:37:33] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] And you're planning on coming after us. [20:37:49] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] I will say that the one concern in our empire is that we are too late to bring you in on our plan and we're being set up. [20:38:07] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] It's already obvious that PAL's size and growth are considerable - we have significant growth room. [20:38:12] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] And we're the "builder traits." [20:38:19] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Let's face it - taking us on would HURT. [20:38:37] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] The three of us would beat each other really bloody. [20:39:05] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] That leaves the other continent a perfect chance to pick and choose targets and alliances. [20:39:17] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] A tremendously unpredictable situation, something I think none of us want. [20:39:26] [20:39:26] Mo_D(PAL) agrees [20:39:33] [ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL] also agrees [20:39:37] [20:39:37] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] ::shrug:: So there, gentlemen, is PAL's perspective. We feel that with your assistance, we can move this game into nearly "mop up" mode. [20:39:42] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] We both know the Vikings are growing slow. [20:39:48] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] If we "go hostile" now... [20:39:53] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] they'll turtle. Grow even slower, build more. [20:40:04] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Your hoplites will deter them- they can't find us. [20:40:20] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Approximately feudalism-ish era.... we descend together. [20:40:48] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] The Vikings wink out. [20:41:11] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Then the premier builders of Apolyton and the superbuilder-civ and warmonger PAL turn their attention over the sea.... [20:41:19] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] and we start planning our schedules for the finals. [20:41:36] [conmcb25] con agrees as well; as con [20:41:46] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] We recognize that overt hostility to the Vikings now is somewhat...bold. [20:41:57] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] But a frightened civ doesn't grow fast - and the Vikings are already slow off the blocks. [20:41:58] [(ZIP)Lord_Phan_GS] A good alliance would be cemented for finals [20:42:01] [Godking_Rich] Nice to be in a chat where people are forthright. [20:42:18] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] To be blunt: You win everything in the war. [20:42:24] [conmcb25] And I can tell you nothing has been debated as much as what we should do since we met you. [20:42:27] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] We win a solid alliance. [20:42:51] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] I guess I should shut up since I'm repeating myself now. [20:43:12] [conmcb25] The english Teacher at work [20:43:25] [conmcb25] FP you KNOW how Apoly works [20:43:39] [conmcb25] This will be debated for a while yet. [20:43:49] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] I do. I think this will take....unusual boldness... for you all, but the wisdom is clearly there. [20:44:02] [conmcb25] i am personally with you a 100% [20:44:04] [Godking_Rich] (debated to death most likely) [20:44:07] [(ZIP)Lord_Phan_GS] no executive priviledge on Apolyton eh? [20:44:11] [Mo_D(PAL)] even if we don't kill them... [20:44:16] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] C'mon, you have the historic nutcases near you with huge axes and a distant powerful neighbor who wants to help you smear them in return for a back to put against theirs. [20:44:20] [Mo_D(PAL)] we effectively render them impotent [20:44:21] [conmcb25] and a lot of folks on the team are as well. [20:44:40] [conmcb25] I agree FP I really do [20:44:50] [(ZIP)Lord_Phan_GS] Don't wait too long [20:44:50] [Mo_D(PAL)] well gentlemen... [20:44:52] [conmcb25] And I believe this chat will help a lot [20:45:02] [Mo_D(PAL)] we can understand wanting to take some time to make the right decision [20:45:05] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Honestly, I know you all would never agree to it.... [20:45:07] [Mo_D(PAL)] but... [20:45:15] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] But I could send you a lovely treatise on Hoplite pillaging... [20:45:20] [Mo_D(PAL)] indecision is never good... [20:45:23] [conmcb25] Ha ha [20:45:26] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] except for that whole "triggered GA" thing. [20:45:32] [conmcb25] No $hit [20:45:35] [conmcb25] I agree [20:46:06] [conmcb25] And I think we can get something ironed out in the next week or two [20:46:17] [Godking_Rich] We hate pillaging, as we just have to rebuild the roads all over again (Interior dude here, can you tell) [20:46:27] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] heh, true, true. [20:46:31] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] :smiles: [20:46:40] [conmcb25] Lord nows the pro PAL folks have been pushing this since we met you. [20:47:00] [conmcb25] And believe it or not a lot of these same arguements ahve been used [20:47:07] [Mo_D(PAL)] hehe [20:47:08] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] if you'd like to arrange a meeting with the peaceniks... [20:47:14] [conmcb25] BUT it will be nice to share this with the team [20:47:18] [Mo_D(PAL)] when you play MP, you grow to learn the value of pillaging [20:47:34] [Godking_Rich] And I am not one of the pro PAL folks. But your letter and this chat may convince me. [20:47:45] [Mo_D(PAL)] and few civs do it better than the hoplites... [20:47:57] [conmcb25] I believe this will help bring over some of the "peaceniks" as you call them to your side [20:48:30] [(ZIP)Lord_Phan_GS] A 3-way alliance on this continent is a guarenteed no, can tell you that much [20:48:38] [conmcb25] I think we need to take some steps in the right direction [20:48:55] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Yeah... the sentiment against a three way on our team is quite strong, though not total. [20:49:00] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] I'd hate to think where that might lead. :/ [20:49:15] [conmcb25] Steps that will enefit both and will not interfere with the :EVIL PLAN: if we decide to go that route [20:49:55] [conmcb25] Actually FP you jumped to the END of my agenda but thats OK. [20:50:13] [conmcb25] Lets say we agree and are pursueing the :EVIL PLAN: [20:50:24] [Mo_D(PAL)] ::listens:: [20:50:24] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] ::Sniffs:: [20:50:29] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Is that Master Zen I smell? [20:51:01] [conmcb25] Would not a tech agreement between us where we also milk the third civ until the right time be wise? [20:51:03] [conmcb25] he he [20:51:13] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Well. There's two possibilities there. [20:51:18] [conmcb25] OK [20:51:20] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] You tech with them, we get more tech, true... [20:51:46] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] But they also grow larger and are harder to kill later. [20:52:08] [conmcb25] yes and get to he middle ages sooner [20:52:12] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Let them know you're hostile right away, and you'll see 3-4 cities by feudalism and a tech stagnant fool. [20:52:23] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] remember, the other team only has two people cooperating [20:52:29] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] we can outpace them [20:52:39] [conmcb25] But we met them first [20:52:51] [(ZIP)Lord_Phan_GS] Berzerks in Middle ages and you're the likely target of them [20:53:08] [conmcb25] And I can tell you we already have a a tech agreement with them [20:53:15] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] ::Cough:: respectfully... [20:53:20] [Mo_D(PAL)] ouch [20:53:24] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] I know the history of Apolyton in choosing its alliances wisely. [20:53:24] [conmcb25] We were beginnin to think we were alone with them [20:53:44] [conmcb25] I did NOT say alliance [20:53:54] [Mo_D(PAL)] hmmm... [20:54:00] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Dead men tell no tales, as well, and we won't go telling the other continent. [20:54:01] [conmcb25] I repeat, I DID NOT SAY ALLIANCE [20:54:13] [Mo_D(PAL)] please clarify [20:54:15] [Mo_D(PAL)] lol [20:54:19] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] ::Smacks Mo:: [20:54:25] [conmcb25] Ok [20:54:26] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Phan, gag him and beat him please. [20:54:30] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Con, that was a joke [20:54:33] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] just ignore Mo [20:54:36] [Mo_D(PAL)] just havin a little fun with our Greek friends [20:54:40] [conmcb25] No FP he needs to know how these thinks usually work [20:54:49] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] he knows. he's being a punk [20:54:53] [conmcb25] OK [20:55:01] [conmcb25] We met them [20:55:02] [Mo_D(PAL)] yeah just kidding around [20:55:06] [conmcb25] Traded techs [20:55:09] [Mo_D(PAL)] breaking the tension, etc [20:55:35] [conmcb25] and have been discussing what the final arangement would be [20:55:43] [conmcb25] internally [20:55:57] [conmcb25] As FP knows we hate to break alliances [20:56:19] [conmcb25] In the PtW ISDG we had a huge debate on whether to break a NAP or not. [20:56:27] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] ::remembers:: [20:56:28] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] [20:56:35] [Mo_D(PAL)] and as we know, you have no alliance with them... [20:56:40] [conmcb25] And the only reason we did was because of conflicting agrements [20:56:49] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] I seem to recall voting on the side of practicality. hehe [20:56:59] [conmcb25] Exactly [20:57:15] [conmcb25] When a conflict you have to decide one way or another. [20:57:34] [conmcb25] I will share with you that we do not have an alliance. [20:57:47] [conmcb25] FP knows we rarely work that quickly [20:57:51] [conmcb25] [20:58:11] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] as a SCI COM civ....it is difficult to understand why apolyton feels they will be behind in a tech race? [20:58:12] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Hmm. [20:58:34] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Okay, this is a "hypothetical" and NOT a threat - but to point something out.... [20:58:46] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] If we had gone to the Vikings with this proposal (never really considered) [20:58:53] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] we both know how quickly they would've jumped at it. [20:59:10] [(ZIP)Lord_Phan_GS] and we'd win [20:59:15] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] actually would seem the vikings stand to gain a lot from Apolytons sci com traits [20:59:20] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] more than apolyton would [20:59:21] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] ::scowls at Phan:: [20:59:35] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] You're treating Elucidia with due honor. [20:59:36] [(ZIP)Lord_Phan_GS] would rather have Apolyton on our side [20:59:47] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] But I dare say that Elucidia would probably not have done the same with you. [20:59:54] [conmcb25] True and we are all being forthright so thats OK [20:59:58] [(ZIP)Lord_Phan_GS] and have apolyton on our side in future games [21:00:14] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] any team growing as slow as Elucidia is isn't the kind of ally we want in the future anyhow.

	02-05-2004 09:28									#11
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Part 2 of chat with PAL.

quote: [21:00:14] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] hehe [21:00:25] [Mo_D(PAL)] well... [21:00:26] [conmcb25] In fact they are asking us right now for something more "substantial" and we are delaying a response [21:00:44] [Godking_Rich] One thing also though and you know this, if you did go after us, there is no guarantee you would win, and in doing so the price you would pay would be huge. [21:00:45] [Mo_D(PAL)] i think we've outlined our position pretty clearly [21:00:49] [conmcb25] Because we met you [21:01:00] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] absolutely. a war between APO and PAL would be very messy. [21:01:06] [Mo_D(PAL)] yes [21:01:06] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] :nods: [21:01:08] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] it would result in one or both of us being eliminated. [21:01:13] [Godking_Rich] True bloodbath. [21:01:24] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] The vikings would be smart enough to watch and join the other continent in smearing us both I think. [21:01:27] [conmcb25] BUT again [21:01:34] [(ZIP)Lord_Phan_GS] If anyone could give us trouble it would be apolyton [21:01:38] [Mo_D(PAL)] which is one reason why we've made the proposal that we have [21:01:41] [conmcb25] I have a team of 60 people to convince [21:01:41] [(ZIP)Lord_Phan_GS] only site other then the ladder I respect [21:01:50] [conmcb25] Many of whom are cautious [21:01:55] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] (And with Phan's ego, that's something!) [21:01:56] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] hehe [21:02:01] [Godking_Rich] Here is one thing I have said, and that many are not thinking of... the other continent may be two other islands. [21:02:08] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] ::blink:: [21:02:17] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Any evidence leading to that conclusion? [21:02:19] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] I know from an MoI perspective, I would be very worried about viking neghbors nearby [21:02:25] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] their cap is likely on coast [21:02:34] [conmcb25] Thats why I really think we need to take steps that build trust [21:02:37] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] which means the only direction they may have.....is right at you [21:02:41] [Mo_D(PAL)] if they are on 2 islands, it should be even easier for both of us [21:02:41] [Godking_Rich] No,except looking at many, many random drawn maps. [21:02:43] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] ::muse:: [21:02:50] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] If the others were separated on islands... [21:02:58] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] We should make sure it's GWT we get rid of. :P [21:02:58] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] hehehe [21:03:04] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] damn slow players [21:03:20] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] yeah, there's another reason to whack the vikings early - 4 players, faster turns. [21:03:20] [(ZIP)Lord_Phan_GS] Kill zie Germans [21:03:21] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] ::whistle:: [21:03:22] [conmcb25] FP knows he wont get much of an arguement from Apoly on that [21:03:51] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] and it ought to make the other game pause to know that Apolyton went to war early and with PAL beside them [21:03:53] [Mo_D(PAL)] other 2 on islands = probably slower tech for them [21:03:54] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] [21:05:13] [Godking_Rich] This is one reason we are hesitant to take out a civ with beserkers and +1 sea movement - it they are on separate islands, what better way to get to them. [21:05:21] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] a valid point. [21:05:30] [Mo_D(PAL)] what better way to get to us? [21:05:38] [Mo_D(PAL)] ::shudders:: [21:05:39] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] However, you keep an attack dog on a leash [21:05:47] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] and neither of us can leash the Vikings [21:06:05] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] if the other two teams are on separate islands, they're dead already. [21:06:10] [(ZIP)Lord_Phan_GS] If they're on islands they'll be weak [21:06:16] [Mo_D(PAL)] exactly [21:06:18] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] tech obsolesence and we'll be trading/developing like mad [21:06:26] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Vikings would be superfluous [21:06:30] [Godking_Rich] and probably many techs behind. True [21:06:41] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] "go ahead, line that island with warriors" [21:06:50] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] "We'll have marines and planes in ...oh...30 turns" [21:07:01] [conmcb25] Ha Ha [21:07:14] [conmcb25] We need to talk about steps to build trust [21:07:21] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] :nods: [21:07:23] [conmcb25] I need to take back some bones [21:07:25] [Mo_D(PAL)] ok... [21:07:25] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Listening. [21:07:36] [conmcb25] Your letter was an exellent start [21:08:19] [conmcb25] First of all our tech agreement with the third civ is not forever [21:08:36] [conmcb25] and definately ends short of the ancient age [21:08:42] [Mo_D(PAL)] ouch [21:08:49] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] ::Muse:: [21:09:00] [conmcb25] well whats done is done [21:09:18] [Godking_Rich] You know that we move slow, and is small steps. [21:09:25] [conmcb25] It gives them a boost, but its not fatal\ [21:09:39] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Okay, um, here's a weird notion... [21:09:46] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] What if we can convince the Vikings to "backstab" you? [21:09:52] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] if they break the treaty... [21:10:01] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] you're off the hook, yes? [21:10:19] [conmcb25] True [21:10:33] [conmcb25] BUT dont you think we should agree to an allince first? [21:10:46] [conmcb25] FP you know Apoly [21:10:49] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] ::Muse:: [21:10:56] [21:10:56] Mo_D(PAL) frowns [21:11:07] [21:11:07] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] I think the problem is that we could only agree to an alliance if a clause in it stated "And the Vikings shall be dead before Feudalism" [21:11:08] [(ZIP)Lord_Phan_GS] Never thought I'd see the day Apolyton was scared of CDG [21:11:11] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] heh [21:11:18] [conmcb25] Dont frown [21:11:20] [Godking_Rich] NOT an option IMHO. We play this game honorable, even to our own detriment at times. Ally with you, and you takl them into attacking us.... [21:11:24] [conmcb25] Look at this way [21:11:38] [conmcb25] We need to take some small steps and build trust [21:11:47] [Mo_D(PAL)] hmmm... [21:11:51] [Mo_D(PAL)] what do you propose? [21:11:52] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] :listening: [21:12:00] [conmcb25] You guys are trying the huge steps right out of the box. [21:12:15] [Mo_D(PAL)] as you saw from our letter and from this chat... [21:12:23] [Mo_D(PAL)] Indecision is a word that we don't understand [21:12:35] [Mo_D(PAL)] we believe in laying our cards out on the table [21:12:37] [conmcb25] Well the first thing we should do is make sure you will be as caught up on techs as we and CDG [21:13:10] [conmcb25] And make sure we dont research the same stuff [21:13:14] [(ZIP)Lord_Phan_GS] If we ally we can attack in about 30-40 turns? yes? [21:13:28] [(ZIP)Lord_Phan_GS] Decimate CDG [21:13:48] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] ::bonks Phan:: [21:14:00] [conmcb25] 30 sounds soon [21:14:09] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Phan's like that. [21:14:13] [conmcb25] I dont think we will be out of this age at that time [21:14:52] [conmcb25] OK [21:15:28] [conmcb25] Lets try and do something on techs that wont get us to far down the road with the third guy BUT in the mean time will help us both [21:15:35] [conmcb25] Can we start there? [21:15:49] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Listening. [21:16:11] [Mo_D(PAL)] let's talk about the iron issue [21:16:20] [conmcb25] Then Tech trade/agreements lead to at least a NAP and hopefully a NAP will lead to an alliance [21:16:45] [conmcb25] I think our team will realize you guys are ready to do this NOW. [21:17:00] [conmcb25] Some of us at Apoly are ready to do this NOW. [21:17:08] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] That's the ladder way; those who dare win. [21:17:16] [Mo_D(PAL)] carpe dieam [21:17:19] [Mo_D(PAL)] diem [21:17:24] [conmcb25] I need trust building tid bits to cnvince MORE to do this now. [21:17:29] [Godking_Rich] [21:17:40] [Mo_D(PAL)] what do you need? [21:17:43] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] alright, we'll go ahead with the iron information. [21:17:44] [Mo_D(PAL)] specifically? [21:17:45] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] 5 turns. [21:18:00] [conmcb25] 9 turns for us [21:18:00] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] [21:18:17] [conmcb25] So you finish [21:18:35] [conmcb25] we abandon and research a lower tech point tech [21:18:36] [Godking_Rich] Late start on our part. [21:18:43] [conmcb25] so we finish it quickly [21:18:52] [conmcb25] Then we share [21:19:13] [Mo_D(PAL)] hmmm... [21:19:14] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] could you be specific? [21:19:27] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] there aren't many left [21:19:31] [conmcb25] I had a feeling you would ask that [21:19:32] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] and ceremonial for iron seems a bit.... [21:19:34] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] well... [21:19:36] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] ::Cough:: [21:19:36] [conmcb25] Yes let me check [21:20:34] [conmcb25] well thats the trust part and no it wont be CB [21:20:37] [conmcb25] [21:20:41] [conmcb25] Lemme check [21:26:22] [(ZIP)Lord_Phan_GS] I have this sad suspicion that you're going to trade Iron to the vikings for Writing, then you or they are going for Philo [21:26:32] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Heh. Phan the diplomatic. [21:26:57] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] I guess that could be resolved by a no-tech-trade agreement.... [21:27:00] [Godking_Rich] we are chatting amongst ourselves as to how much to tell you about different things.... sorry about the delay.... [21:27:05] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] no sweat. [21:27:16] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] We wer ejust discussing what we'd be doing with the Vikings in your shoes. [21:27:19] [Mo_D(PAL)] understandable [21:27:30] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Iron for Writing and then snatch Philo out from under them. [21:27:42] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] or maybe get it and the freebie from them in exchange for whatever [21:29:16] [conmcb25] con swears to himself [21:29:33] [conmcb25] IW is tied up in a tech deal to CDG [21:29:45] [Mo_D(PAL)] mmm hmm [21:29:49] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] [21:29:54] [conmcb25] Lemme think [21:29:55] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] See, that's the thing about ladder games [21:29:55] [21:29:55] Mo_D(PAL) nods knowingly [21:30:03] [21:30:03] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] we've made 1000s of diplomatic agreements. [21:30:14] [(ZIP)Lord_Phan_GS] My suspicions are being brought to light me thinks [21:30:35] [Godking_Rich] And that is the opposite thing about pbem. You get almost too much time to think and decide. [21:30:49] [conmcb25] What suspicions? [21:31:25] [conmcb25] Im personally trying to find some middle ground here where we can build rust [21:31:37] [Mo_D(PAL)] it's just tough at this point... [21:31:37] [conmcb25] Because I personally want this to work [21:31:41] [Kloreep] con's spel- er, typing strikes again [21:31:43] [conmcb25] I really do [21:32:02] [Mo_D(PAL)] your tech agreement is really hindering things [21:32:04] [(ZIP)Lord_Phan_GS] So basically you have to decide between allying with the slow-growing loser and taking all three of us down [21:32:12] [(ZIP)Lord_Phan_GS] or sucking it up and allying with the team you know is the better deal, and we win this **** and move on [21:32:13] [Mo_D(PAL)] not that i blame you for playing honorably [21:32:19] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] sounds like apolyton is going out of its way to exclude pal from getting use from trading iron [21:32:24] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Damnit Phan, this isn't ladder chat, clean up your act or go back to the barracks. ::SCOWL:: [21:32:39] [(ZIP)Lord_Phan_GS] honor is good but survival is better [21:32:41] [21:32:41] (ZIP)Lord_Phan_GS was kicked out of the room. [21:32:46] [21:32:47] [conmcb25] No thats not it at all phan [21:32:56] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] I'll be talking with Phan later [21:33:14] [conmcb25] F-P you didn't need to do that I would have rather explained it [21:33:20] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] hmm. [21:33:26] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] I just rather dislike his tongue. [21:33:30] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] lemme invite him back [21:33:30] [conmcb25] Its a simple matter of we met them first [21:33:35] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] he's our resident hothead. [21:33:35] [Mo_D(PAL)] Phan's our hot-tempered warmonger [21:33:40] [Mo_D(PAL)] nothing to worry about [21:33:42] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] first.....does not mean best [21:34:04] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] There is a bit of a "We're offering bones but not getting much" sentiment, but Phan as usual is on the extreme edge. [21:34:12] [conmcb25] Ok so we break the deal with CDG right now lets say [21:34:25] [conmcb25] Then what will PAL think of us? [21:34:36] [Mo_D(PAL)] that you're smart and flexible [21:34:38] [conmcb25] How will you then view us as a long term partner? [21:34:50] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Honestly? [21:34:55] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] PAL is practical, too. [21:35:02] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] You're being smart and cutting ties with the weakest team [21:35:21] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] We're honorable too, but we temper it with practicality. [21:35:22] [Mo_D(PAL)] this is why I never ally with the first Civ i meet [21:35:27] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Allying with you is both honorable, smart, AND practical. [21:35:32] [Mo_D(PAL)] it limits your options [21:35:48] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] We didn't/won't go to the Vikings because they're not honorable, they're not playing smart, and it's not practical. [21:35:50] [Godking_Rich] we will NOT break the deal, I can tell you that. It would be a long term killer for poly, and most people on the team would skin us for suggesting it. But we can possibly work with the deal.... [21:35:54] [conmcb25] Ok are you guys telling me then that a pre met deal for techs make it unlikely we can work something out unless we break the deal? [21:36:22] [Mo_D(PAL)] it makes it more difficult, to be sure [21:36:33] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Hmm. [21:36:35] [Mo_D(PAL)] not necessarily impossible, but more difficult [21:36:40] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] How about we make it a three-way trade? [21:36:44] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] LOL [21:36:51] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] I just proposed something three-way cooperational [21:36:51] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] wtf [21:36:56] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] ::shakes his head and looks around:: [21:36:57] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] lol [21:37:00] [conmcb25] Thats what I would like to do [21:37:05] [21:37:05] Mo_D(PAL) scowls [21:37:06] [21:37:06] [Godking_Rich] 2.5 way perhaps? [21:37:11] [conmcb25] UNTIL the end of this existing deal [21:37:15] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] 2.5 can you explain? [21:37:35] [Godking_Rich] Let me see... [21:37:45] [Godking_Rich] without stepping on my partners feet.... [21:37:47] [21:37:47] Mo_D(PAL) listens with interest [21:38:01] [21:38:01] [Godking_Rich] we have a tech trade, very complicated, in process [21:38:13] [Godking_Rich] there is no NDA with such trade. [21:38:15] [conmcb25] The essence would be milk em until we attack [21:38:34] [conmcb25] actually milk em until the end of the deal [21:38:39] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] "Milk until attack" isn't our preferred method, but we might be able to sell it. [21:38:51] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Tech alone won't make them harder to kill...expansion, will. [21:38:59] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] NDA? [21:39:03] [conmcb25] Lets say milk till the end of the deal which will get us both republic [21:39:14] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Wow... [21:39:15] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] non disclusre agreement? [21:39:19] [Godking_Rich] You and us trade, us and them trade, and by doing so, we gain trust. Trust enough that at the end of this age, there may be a time where there are only two left on this land mass. [21:39:22] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] they use Philo to get Code and you research Republic, eh? [21:39:23] [conmcb25] The current deal ends with republic [21:39:33] [conmcb25] No [21:39:44] [conmcb25] They finish writing and gift to us [21:39:50] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] k [21:39:56] [conmcb25] We give them IW when we finish [21:40:14] [conmcb25] They finish COL while we are doing Philo [21:40:24] [Godking_Rich] Rep is free tech [21:40:30] [conmcb25] Republic is free tech [21:40:33] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] i see where this is going :-) [21:40:34] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] they must be close to done with writing then [21:40:42] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] ::Muse:: [21:40:54] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] okay, here's a proposal then. [21:40:57] [conmcb25] Probbly as close or closer than we are with IW [21:41:10] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] I haven't run this by my guys yet [21:41:20] [conmcb25] understtood [21:41:21] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] We'll grant you the iron for their writing.... [21:41:32] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] we all get iron, writing [21:41:40] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] you and we trade whatever you research [21:41:42] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] [21:41:43] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] say, math or something [21:41:43] [Godking_Rich] We went with pottery, they went for writing... our second was writing, then we met... thus we are behind you with IW, and so forth. There, I gave it all away. [21:41:51] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] now... [21:41:58] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] while you're researching philo... [21:42:01] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] we'll research maps [21:42:12] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] with your boost from writing [21:42:25] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] we trade you maps [21:42:33] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] basically... [21:42:35] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] we "surf" your trade [21:42:46] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] but you cut Vikings out of math and maps [21:42:57] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] now, here's the bone. [21:43:01] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] look at the total exchange here [21:43:10] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] we give you iron - you get iron for free [21:43:19] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] you get writing free [21:43:23] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] you give it to us [21:43:35] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] you've effectively "bartered" the techs [21:43:47] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] meanwhile you're working math [21:43:51] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] we get math, you get maps [21:44:04] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] so you've effectively gotten three techs [21:44:06] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] and only researched one. [21:44:11] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] That's one hell of a bone. [21:44:21] [conmcb25] Hmm [21:44:26] [Godking_Rich] Our agreement is that they get IW for writing, and we research and give them some undisclosed tech while they finish CoL, then we start philo as to time it correct so that they gift us CoL prior republic. If we do math, we have to give it to them. [21:44:28] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] we get three techs too - and the vikings only get their iron. [21:44:28] [conmcb25] where does philo come in? [21:44:44] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] you could start philo right away I suppose [21:44:57] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] ah okay. [21:45:01] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] I see GR's point [21:45:05] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] then do ceremonial and give them that. [21:45:37] [Godking_Rich] Yes. that was our plan. [21:46:25] [Godking_Rich] But that would put math well behind. we couldn't do it right a way.

	02-05-2004 09:30									#12
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Part 3.

quote: [21:46:39] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] hang on... [21:46:45] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] getting an idea thrown at me [21:46:47] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] ::flails:: [21:46:51] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] okay... [21:46:51] [Mo_D(PAL)] [21:47:09] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] we're the faster researchers here... [21:47:14] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] why don't we research Philo? [21:47:20] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] and you cue us on when to do it [21:47:25] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] grab the fast CB [21:47:29] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] and then go on to a tech we both want [21:47:39] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] you guy for Math, we'll grab the fast CB rather [21:47:43] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] gah this is getting confusing [21:48:00] [conmcb25] yes it certainly is [21:48:03] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] hehe [21:48:04] [conmcb25] [21:48:29] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] just seems like we should be able to sneak some techs around without Viking knowledge. [21:48:30] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] ::Muse:: [21:48:44] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] I suppose we could just plain old research mapmaking while you all are jumping hoops with them [21:48:47] [Mo_D(PAL)] which wouldn't break your word, i believe [21:48:48] [Godking_Rich] IF we are to consider such things, we will have to disclose research rates, growth patterns, etc. for the next 30+ turns to work out all the timing. [21:49:15] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] We could only do that if we agreed to immediate cessation of friendly contact with the vikings after Republic. [21:49:28] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] And even then, I dunno if we can do it... [21:49:34] [Godking_Rich] Or shortly thereafter. [21:49:37] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] our growth is.... impressive. [21:49:44] [Mo_D(PAL)] i don't really see the need for disclosing that sort of information [21:49:45] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] predicting our tech rate would be difficult. [21:49:59] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] :nod....extrenmely much so: [21:50:11] [Godking_Rich] Floodplain and agricultural and industrious. Maya are my favorite civ. [21:50:19] [Mo_D(PAL)] and if Heroic says it's difficult, it is [21:50:24] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Think so? [21:50:26] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] :grin: [21:50:58] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] okay, let's talk concretes. [21:51:09] [conmcb25] We KNOW you have good growth [21:51:10] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Can we agree that in exchange for giving you iron for the Vikings, we get writing? [21:51:21] [conmcb25] Yes [21:51:25] [conmcb25] Agreed [21:51:31] [Godking_Rich] Predicting is hard. That is why disclosure would be needed to work out timing. Neither of us would be comfortable with specifics I suspect. [21:51:35] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] can we agree that the tech you "waste time" on - that you'll start earlier than they expect... [21:51:39] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] we get as well? [21:52:00] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] since you're getting two freebies from the first trade? [21:52:18] [conmcb25] wait one [21:53:24] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] I think the feeling here is that we would get any tech you got from cooperation with them, and we would give you any tech also springing from that cooperation [21:53:43] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] but that you would agree to cut the vikings out of anything other than your agreement [21:53:55] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] so as to appease your agreement and appease our desire to set them up for the fall [21:53:58] [Mo_D(PAL)] yes, we definitely need to be cut in on all the techs that are flying around [21:54:03] [Godking_Rich] We already lost many turns and will have to abandon our research - again. However, I know we could work something equatible out. [21:55:03] [conmcb25] Ok we are talking give us a minute [21:56:43] [conmcb25] Wht do you want CB thrown in with the writng for IW deal FP? [21:56:55] [conmcb25] CB being our "filler tech? [21:58:14] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Let me see if I can take a broader brushstroke [21:58:36] [conmcb25] I think I know why, but I need you to say it [21:59:24] [Mo_D(PAL)] ::sigh:: [21:59:34] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] We will agree to facilitate you with all techs we research until Republic is in your hands, provided you facilitate us with all techs you research, and you receive. [21:59:46] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] effectively making it a three-way-tech-sharing [21:59:49] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] with the Vikings being screwed. [21:59:50] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] [21:59:53] [21:59:53] Mo_D(PAL) nods [21:59:57] [21:59:57] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] [22:00:01] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] excuse me - until Republic is in your hands, AND ours. [22:00:13] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] (And that would be a jolly time to screw the Vikings, right then, but that's your call.) [22:00:58] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] having us do maps gives APO and PAL maps, and screws the vikings of it [22:01:03] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] (Which is good for obvious reasons) [22:01:25] [Mo_D(PAL)] I guess what we're saying is... [22:01:38] [Mo_D(PAL)] that if we are going to be cut out of the loop [22:01:47] [Godking_Rich] no map trading until later I am afraid teh UN forced on us. [22:01:53] [Mo_D(PAL)] well, we'll need to explore other options [22:01:54] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] oh definitely [22:01:59] [Mo_D(PAL)] he means mapmaking [22:02:05] [Mo_D(PAL)] not map trading [22:02:14] [Godking_Rich] ok [22:02:14] [Mo_D(PAL)] the tech itself [22:02:23] [Godking_Rich] Sorry. [22:02:26] [Godking_Rich] my bad [22:02:27] [Mo_D(PAL)] not a good idea for the Vikings to have that, as you know [22:03:03] [Godking_Rich] Unless we want them to scout for us for a while? find the general locaiton of the other teams? [22:03:12] [Mo_D(PAL)] ouch [22:03:21] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Geez. You guys CAN be duplicitous. :P [22:03:36] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Honestly, I don't think we want the Vikings finding anyone. [22:03:36] [Mo_D(PAL)] the more advanced they get, the worse it is for us all [22:03:45] [Mo_D(PAL)] exactly [22:03:50] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] That throws the threat of the cross-continentl backstab into play [22:03:55] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] yes [22:03:55] [Mo_D(PAL)] as we're hitting them, they're giving away info about us both [22:03:58] [Mo_D(PAL)] yikes! [22:03:59] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] and they could just as easily feed the other continent with OUR info [22:04:08] [Godking_Rich] Just thinking out loud is all. And yes, playing with me in PBEM can get mean. I just nuked all my compitition in one.... [22:04:08] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] yeah, think GCA in the PTWISDG [22:04:37] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] we don't want the Vikings resurfacing on the other continent and coming back for us [22:04:40] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] 3v2 that way is ugly [22:05:28] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] ::scratches his head:: You guys could make life a lot easier by breaking that agreement after writing. heh [22:05:46] [Mo_D(PAL)] hehe [22:05:47] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Honor is excellent, but survival is better, as Phan says [22:06:00] [conmcb25] True [22:06:01] [Godking_Rich] Then we loose republic... most expensive tech of this age. [22:06:05] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] not so [22:06:11] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] We'd be HAPPY to step in on that trade [22:06:11] [Mo_D(PAL)] absolutely not so [22:06:16] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] We'd fall over ourselves for that [22:06:20] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] think about our growth here [22:06:28] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] we'd LOVE to start getting a voting government in place. [22:06:30] [Mo_D(PAL)] we could research philo VERY quickly [22:06:42] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] We'll sign that deal with you tonight if you want to ink it all up. :P [22:06:45] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] hehehe [22:06:45] [Mo_D(PAL)] or Code or whatever [22:06:56] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] research here is not a problem [22:07:01] [Godking_Rich] we are scientific. we insisted in philo. [22:07:07] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] :: [22:07:08] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] For the SGL, fine [22:07:17] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] we should do code anyway [22:07:18] [Mo_D(PAL)] well we could do Code very quickly then [22:07:22] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] longer research, and we're the GNP monsters [22:07:28] [Mo_D(PAL)] much quicker than the Vikings could [22:07:38] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] sooner you can launch philo better odds of getting it [22:07:45] [Mo_D(PAL)] yes [22:07:49] [Mo_D(PAL)] that's the other thing... [22:07:53] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] the other continent has a shot at it as well [22:07:55] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] we'd probably proceed technologically much quicker if we cut the Vikings out earlier. heh [22:08:02] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] dealaying phiilo for slow viking research may cost you [22:08:02] [Mo_D(PAL)] this deal with the Vikings may actually cost you Philo! [22:08:13] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] ooo. ::Cringe:: [22:08:17] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Hadn't thought of that. [22:08:17] [Mo_D(PAL)] who knows what the other continent is doing... [22:08:25] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Sumeria could be going after it and they're growing fast too. [22:08:31] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] There's an ugly thought. [22:08:33] [Godking_Rich] Ok, I have not even discussed with my team.... [22:08:34] [Mo_D(PAL)] ouch [22:08:39] [Godking_Rich] this is my idea. [22:08:52] [Godking_Rich] we bring you in on the republic deal. [22:09:09] [Godking_Rich] you and us trade. We abandon IW now, and start on horse. [22:09:40] [Godking_Rich] You give us IW and we give you writing. [22:09:56] [Mo_D(PAL)] problem with that... [22:10:10] [Mo_D(PAL)] you won't be able to give horseback to the Vikings then [22:10:11] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] you can't give the vikings horseback unless you've violated our no-trade agreement. [22:10:22] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] would you instead give them the wheel and claim that was your time waster? [22:10:30] [Mo_D(PAL)] ahhhhh yes [22:10:32] [Mo_D(PAL)] great idea [22:10:51] [Godking_Rich] .... [22:10:56] [Godking_Rich] had to erase... [22:11:04] [Godking_Rich] that may work [22:11:20] [Godking_Rich] you start on the cb to monarchy path. [22:11:30] [Godking_Rich] we do the republic path. [22:11:50] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] I think you mean the Polytheism path, yes? [22:12:04] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] why would we want Monarchy? Eeeeuugh. [22:12:05] [Godking_Rich] Yes. No need for monarchy. [22:12:09] [Mo_D(PAL)] monarchy ::yawn:: [22:12:12] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Okay, let's cut to the chase again. [22:12:17] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Fried speaking directly. [22:12:28] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] If we're going to work together and screw the vikings over in the long haul, here's what we both need and want, in reality. [22:12:34] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] We both need to have all the other's techs [22:12:41] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] and we want to work together to minimize the Viking techs. [22:12:42] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] right? [22:12:46] [Godking_Rich] yes [22:12:56] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Then why don't we just make that bloody agreement and be done with it? [22:13:01] [Kloreep] You're proposing complete sharing of all techs, then? [22:13:02] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] "We shall be equal in techs at all times" [22:13:20] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] "And the Vikings shall receive absolutely the minimum needed techs" [22:13:27] [22:13:27] Mo_D(PAL) nods [22:13:32] [22:13:32] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] and maybe as a bone to us you could at least ask us what freebie to give them or give us input? [22:13:36] [22:13:36] [ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL] nods in approval [22:13:40] [22:13:40] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] So the five of us aren't shot and hung later tonight? hehe [22:13:45] [Godking_Rich] I can agree to that, but is is a big enough decision that we will have to put it to the team. [22:14:01] [22:14:01] Mo_D(PAL) understands [22:14:31] [22:14:31] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] more importantly, do you think you can sell it? [22:14:53] [Godking_Rich] I think we can, but it will take 1-2 weeks of Real Life time. [22:15:01] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] hmm. [22:15:05] [Godking_Rich] (3-5 turns in game) [22:15:11] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] our longest decisions take 48 hours. [22:15:20] [Godking_Rich] welcome to pbem [22:15:26] [Kloreep] Honestly, no idea here [22:15:35] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] okay, compromise... [22:15:36] [Kloreep] I can't predict how 50 people will vote [22:15:38] [Mo_D(PAL)] hmmm... [22:15:58] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Effectively, we would commit to this deal in 5 turns when we give you Iron Working. [22:16:11] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] So we would need the same committal at that time. [22:16:17] [Mo_D(PAL)] of course, we'll need our team's approval as well [22:16:19] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Can you assure us a decision prior to that date? [22:16:34] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] I realize that may mean a sunset provision on discussions and voting [22:16:34] [conmcb25] We can try like hell [22:16:36] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] which isn't really your way [22:16:40] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] but we need a bone or two here as well. [22:16:47] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] you are asking Pal to alter its research to coordinate, within 5 turns. We beleive it is fair to ask for cooperation on your part by the same time. [22:16:47] [conmcb25] I agree [22:16:50] [Godking_Rich] I think we can guarantee a decision (just not what decision) in that time frame. [22:16:56] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Alright. [22:16:58] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] That seems fair. [22:17:02] [Kloreep] Yes [22:17:09] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Now the last and most exciting question. [22:17:15] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] After Republic.... [22:17:15] [Kloreep] I think this will give us enough time to poll, though it may cut discussion a little short [22:17:25] [conmcb25] Lemme ask you guys something in gneral? [22:17:27] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Sure [22:17:32] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] ::Muses how to phrase this:: [22:17:49] [conmcb25] Do you worry about the tech points in online trading? [22:18:07] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] you mean Active-MP? [22:18:18] [conmcb25] ya? [22:18:31] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] As long as it isn't ridiculously abusive, we'd rather ignore the extra points in the spirit of goodwill [22:18:36] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Iron for ceremonial is bad [22:18:39] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] iron for writing... fine [22:18:48] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] maps for philo is fine, though obviously a bit rough [22:18:54] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] we want friendship, not gold. [22:19:00] [conmcb25] And that is how you are going to approach this game as well? [22:19:01] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] friends send units. Gold sents thieves. [22:19:01] [Mo_D(PAL)] yes [22:19:26] [Mo_D(PAL)] we'd rather have a strong ally who can help us [22:19:35] [Godking_Rich] nice change of the old saying.... [22:19:57] [conmcb25] *con feels like MP guys and PBEM guys speak two different languages* [22:20:02] [conmcb25] [22:20:17] [Mo_D(PAL)] you guys are very concerned about the tech pts? [22:20:25] [Godking_Rich] we do. Like us engineers having ot deal with all the lawyers [22:20:33] [Mo_D(PAL)] hehe [22:20:43] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] tell you what [22:20:48] [conmcb25] Ok to give you fast and loose online guys a good idea of the "cultural" differences here: [22:20:53] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] why don't we just keep a running tab on the tech points [22:21:07] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] and whoever's ahead at the end researches the tech that is more expensive next [22:21:16] [conmcb25] We discussed two tech points difference for at least five minutes back in the home chat [22:21:18] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] and the other guy researches the cheaper exchange one [22:21:25] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] we just keep alternating back and forth [22:21:32] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] ooof, two tech points for five minutes? oish! [22:21:46] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] tech points dont win games. Allies do. [22:21:53] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] :-) [22:21:58] [Godking_Rich] Oh, that was nothing. We could have started a 75+ post count thread on the issue. [22:22:09] [Mo_D(PAL)] lol [22:22:33] [Mo_D(PAL)] keeping exact tabs on such things builds mistrust, IMO [22:22:40] [Godking_Rich] OH ya, things like tech point differences count for a lot (or so one would think). [22:22:44] [conmcb25] con is somewhat frustrated right now, with the speed at which Apoly makes decisions, let me tell you [22:22:46] [conmcb25] [22:23:08] [Mo_D(PAL)] obviously, an alliance cannot overly benefit one party or the other [22:23:17] [Mo_D(PAL)] both must benefit [22:23:21] [conmcb25] Well we will have to do it, and then like FP said just alternate keeping the balance [22:23:27] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] If you all have a proposal on this subject that genuinely is mutually even [22:23:34] [Godking_Rich] IF we agree, we must also agree on various wonder builds. A discussion for a later time, but one we should prepare you for. [22:23:36] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] I think the simplest way is that, yes. [22:23:42] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Heh [22:23:47] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] let the MP guy tell it to you straight [22:23:53] [conmcb25] Yes I agree FP [22:23:53] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Wonders aren't worth the trouble. :P [22:24:02] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] not when we just need to kill two people [22:24:06] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] this game won't go mid-industrial [22:24:32] [Godking_Rich] Zeus? [22:24:44] [Mo_D(PAL)] what about Zeus? [22:24:44] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] got ivory, do you? [22:24:51] [22:24:52] Mo_D(PAL) cringes [22:25:28] [22:25:28] [Godking_Rich] No comment. Lets just say there are possibilities. [22:25:33] [Mo_D(PAL)] hehe [22:25:35] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] we would be willing to "back off" Zeus for soemthing else [22:25:37] [conmcb25] we will soon [22:25:47] [conmcb25] have Ivory [22:26:04] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] go for it, yar. [22:26:08] [Mo_D(PAL)] if we are allied, it doesn't honestly matter to me which one of us gets Zeus [22:26:10] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] We have our eye on...a different one. [22:26:13] [Kloreep] Does/will PAL have Ivory? [22:26:29] [conmcb25] They already said yes KLO [22:26:35] [Godking_Rich] Pyramids? [22:26:56] [Mo_D(PAL)] we aren't in a position where we can discuss exactly which Wonder we have our eye on [22:27:06] [Mo_D(PAL)] there's been a vote to that effect [22:27:07] [Godking_Rich] Understood. Too early. [22:27:12] [Mo_D(PAL)] but... [22:27:22] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Specifically we were gagged on that subject actually. [22:27:39] [Mo_D(PAL)] we would be willing to work out a deal whereby we let you have Zeus if we are able to have the one we have our eye on [22:27:47] [Mo_D(PAL)] [22:27:55] [Kloreep] Heh [22:28:03] [Mo_D(PAL)] anyway... [22:28:07] [Mo_D(PAL)] something to think about [22:28:26] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Okay, clarification bone... [22:28:29] [Godking_Rich] gotta go for a bit.... [22:28:31] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] I said we'd be willing to back off Zeus [22:28:38] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] The unintended implication was that we had a shot at Zeus. [22:28:43] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] We do not. [22:29:12] [Mo_D(PAL)] not that we know of yet, anyway [22:29:16] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] At least not at this time. [22:29:26] [conmcb25] OK sounds good

	02-05-2004 09:31									#13
	Tired of ads?

Part 4.

quote: [22:29:39] [Mo_D(PAL)] anyway... [22:29:49] [Mo_D(PAL)] since we are bottom-line kinda guys [22:29:51] [conmcb25] You guys are ready for a lets say *** for tat trade agreement for techs [22:29:53] [Mo_D(PAL)] the bottom line is this [22:29:58] [conmcb25] where we share all [22:30:04] [Mo_D(PAL)] we are interested in a long-term alliance [22:30:13] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Complete sharing on all fronts between us, screwing the Vikings whenever possible. [22:30:18] [conmcb25] and flip flop tech pointers to keep it roughly even.m [22:30:22] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] correct. [22:30:24] [Mo_D(PAL)] we would need to get the approval of the populace, obviously [22:30:26] [conmcb25] Does that sum up techs [22:30:26] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] [22:30:32] [conmcb25] ? [22:30:36] [Mo_D(PAL)] but i don't foresee that being a problem [22:30:42] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] that seems to sum up techs in my opinion? [22:30:49] [conmcb25] OK [22:31:05] [conmcb25] and you guys want us to agree to an allince three days ago [22:31:11] [Mo_D(PAL)] [22:31:13] [conmcb25] Does that about sum it up [22:31:14] [conmcb25] [22:31:25] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Well, the current deal seems sufficient for now... [22:31:33] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] It's the "after Republic" we'd like a hard answer on [22:31:54] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] We'd like the exchange to read "After Republic is obtained, we shall enter into immediate and permanent states of hostility with the Vikings" [22:31:55] [conmcb25] But if we gave you an answer sooner that would be better correct? [22:32:00] [Mo_D(PAL)] we'll need an answer on the long-term alliance arrangement before we can go ahead with the tech trading [22:32:03] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] possibly including screwing the Vikings on Republic. [22:32:43] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] and yes, sooner is better [22:33:10] [conmcb25] Ok Im hearing two things on alliance [22:33:16] [conmcb25] Before the trade [22:33:25] [conmcb25] or as we get republic [22:33:32] [conmcb25] whats the official stance? [22:34:08] [Mo_D(PAL)] hold on... [22:34:12] [Mo_D(PAL)] ::talking:: [22:34:14] [conmcb25] OK [22:35:35] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] would it be easier for you to sell the Tech Agreement separate from the Alliance Agreement? [22:36:05] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] I think the PAL citizens would be a little angry if the second agreement wasn't later adhered to is the problem [22:36:11] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] and why we're leery to "unbundle" the two [22:36:23] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] let me repackage the agreement [22:36:25] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Techs as discussed [22:36:36] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] after Republic, a "Cold war" ensues - no agreements of any sort with the Vikings [22:36:44] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] and we begin active military preparations if we haven't already. [22:36:53] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] and launch as soon as we both deem it wise. [22:37:01] [22:37:01] Mo_D(PAL) nods [22:37:06] [22:37:06] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] that way your agreement with them is safe and ends honorably [22:37:11] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] [22:37:18] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] and we still get what we want - and you get the land you'll probably want as well [22:38:02] [conmcb25] Talking [22:38:12] [Mo_D(PAL)] np [22:45:18] [conmcb25] Ok we agree the deal is the deal [22:45:32] [conmcb25] Lets call it the *** for tat trading [22:45:52] [conmcb25] To be agreed to within 5 turns [22:46:10] [Mo_D(PAL)] *** for tat? [22:46:16] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] and immediate ensuement of a cold war at the conclusion of your agreement with Vikings? [22:46:17] [conmcb25] Contingent upon a cold war with CDG after we conclude our current tech deal [22:46:40] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] ::Nod:: We can almost certainly sell that agreement and are quite happy to hear you like it., [22:46:42] [conmcb25] Which essentially means we ally at that time if not sooner [22:47:01] [conmcb25] me liking it is not the problem [22:47:15] [conmcb25] Its cnvincing everyone at Apoly [22:47:19] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] can you confirm what you mean by *** for tat? [22:47:36] [conmcb25] *con has a feeling his post count is gonna skyrocket* [22:47:57] [conmcb25] *** for Tat means we share all techs as we get them [22:48:01] [conmcb25] and [22:48:25] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Godking? Kloreep? Are you guys sold on this? [22:48:28] [conmcb25] we half arse keep track of tech points so we rotate techs as we research [22:48:35] [Mo_D(PAL)] ahhh ok [22:48:40] [conmcb25] To keep the pencil heads at apoly happy [22:48:41] [Kloreep] I think con just wants a cool name for what was previously discussed, guys [22:48:49] [Kloreep] I guess he's going to break out the propaganda machine [22:48:53] [Mo_D(PAL)] i can live with that [22:49:11] [Mo_D(PAL)] just another thought to throw out there: [22:49:24] [Mo_D(PAL)] the Vikings THINK you'll have iron in 9 turns, right? [22:49:34] [conmcb25] More or less [22:49:41] [conmcb25] they dont have the exact time [22:49:45] [Mo_D(PAL)] so no need to give it to them in 5 turns when we give it to you [22:49:58] [conmcb25] True [22:49:59] [Mo_D(PAL)] can hold off for a little while [22:50:04] [conmcb25] we can live with that [22:50:07] [Mo_D(PAL)] just wanted to gauge your interest in that [22:50:20] [Mo_D(PAL)] it's not breaking your treaty in my mind... [22:50:25] [conmcb25] Fine no problem [22:50:25] [Mo_D(PAL)] just wondered if you agreed [22:50:30] [Mo_D(PAL)] beautiful [22:50:39] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] :-) [22:50:40] [22:50:40] Mo_D(PAL) smiles [22:50:57] [22:50:57] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] heh, so how much more interested in an early war will you be if you don't see iron in their lands? [22:51:01] [conmcb25] we wont think of giving them iron until we get writing from them [22:51:02] [Mo_D(PAL)] well i think these negotiations may prove to be fruitful [22:51:07] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] or you don't see it in yours but do see it in theirs? Hehehe [22:51:40] [Mo_D(PAL)] ouch [22:51:58] [conmcb25] hmm [22:52:08] [conmcb25] That will make things interesting [22:52:14] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] heh heh [22:52:31] [Mo_D(PAL)] well gentlemen... [22:52:59] [conmcb25] OK one last thing and then lets wrap up [22:53:17] [conmcb25] Because after this chat con needs a scotch bad [22:53:27] [conmcb25] A symbolic gesture [22:53:31] [Mo_D(PAL)] hehe [22:53:32] [conmcb25] For both of us [22:53:34] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] ::raises his middle finger:: [22:53:36] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] errr wait [22:53:38] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] you didn't mean that [22:53:41] [Mo_D(PAL)] hehe [22:53:44] [conmcb25] Lets agree to a NAP [22:54:19] [Kloreep] zzz [22:54:38] [Mo_D(PAL)] ::discussing:: [22:54:49] [conmcb25] OK [22:55:28] [Mo_D(PAL)] here's how we feel about that... [22:55:30] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] We would be willing to agree to a NAP until such time as your decision on the Alliance is final. [22:55:41] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Obviously, that's a momentous decision. [22:55:42] [conmcb25] Bingo good enough [22:55:47] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] We'd need to thoroughly reevaluate things at that time. [22:55:57] [conmcb25] At least we FINALIZED something [22:56:07] [Mo_D(PAL)] one last tiny, little tidbit... [22:56:09] [Mo_D(PAL)] [22:56:13] [conmcb25] OK [22:56:14] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] I'm telling you, include that 48 hour rule we have on our votes. [22:56:23] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Works great. Ups board surfing bigtime. [22:56:23] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] lol [22:56:26] [Mo_D(PAL)] we would like your warrior to not come north [22:56:37] [Mo_D(PAL)] and ours will not go your way [22:56:50] [Mo_D(PAL)] we would instead like to scout out the Vikings with ours [22:56:55] [conmcb25] Well whats the cut off? [22:57:02] [Mo_D(PAL)] where you're at now [22:57:20] [Mo_D(PAL)] there's nothing up there other than us [22:57:30] [Mo_D(PAL)] no huts, etc [22:57:36] [Mo_D(PAL)] we've popped any that were there [22:57:41] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] enough barbs to make things dangerous [22:57:41] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] heh [22:57:44] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] lol [22:57:45] [Mo_D(PAL)] of course.... [22:57:49] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Dunedain ran fast! [22:57:57] [Mo_D(PAL)] if we have an alliance then we wouldn't mind at all [22:58:33] [conmcb25] OK we wont go in a quadrant NE of meeting mountain [22:58:38] [conmcb25] Good enough? [22:58:51] [Mo_D(PAL)] ::discussing:: [22:58:58] [conmcb25] and you dont go in the quadrant to the SE [22:59:04] [conmcb25] Till the alliance [22:59:09] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] SW you mean? [22:59:13] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] I thought you were SW [22:59:14] [Mo_D(PAL)] I thought the other Civ was to the SE? [22:59:25] [conmcb25] Yes SW I mean sorry [22:59:30] [Mo_D(PAL)] ahhh ok [22:59:34] [Mo_D(PAL)] ::discussing:: [22:59:39] [conmcb25] I have the shakes right now for lack of booze [22:59:53] [Mo_D(PAL)] ::hurrying discussion:: [22:59:55] [Mo_D(PAL)] [23:00:38] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] quadrant meaning horizontal line that instersets with the point that is NE of the the mt? [23:01:00] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] for a scouting border? [23:01:05] [conmcb25] Draw a line north and east from Meeting Mountain [23:01:13] [conmcb25] we dont go up there [23:01:29] [conmcb25] draw one west and south from meeting mountain [23:01:35] [conmcb25] You dont go there [23:01:53] [conmcb25] That we we effectively have our qudrants off limits [23:02:00] [conmcb25] till we agree to an alliance [23:02:03] [Mo_D(PAL)] hmmm... [23:02:08] [Mo_D(PAL)] ok here's the deal [23:02:20] [Mo_D(PAL)] your warrior is at the south end of a small isthmus [23:02:27] [Mo_D(PAL)] water on both sides [23:02:39] [Mo_D(PAL)] we just don't want you going up it [23:02:46] [Mo_D(PAL)] (until we have an alliance, of course) [23:02:58] [Mo_D(PAL)] we want to harvest some barb slaves [23:03:01] [conmcb25] OK you want us south of your choke point [23:03:11] [Mo_D(PAL)] yes sir [23:03:24] [Mo_D(PAL)] again, if we have an alliance, it's no longer an issue to us [23:03:28] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] it's not so much a hostility thing [23:03:33] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] we just don't want the barbs killed accidentally [23:03:37] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] that's why Dune's been running like mad. [23:03:43] [Mo_D(PAL)] hehe [23:03:50] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] weren't sure if we should've revealed that, but we figure it's a bone and not a huge deal. [23:03:57] [conmcb25] OK [23:03:57] [Mo_D(PAL)] yes [23:04:13] [conmcb25] is the Isthmus east or west of meeting mountain? [23:04:14] [Mo_D(PAL)] we plan to scout out the Vikings with our warrior [23:04:22] [Mo_D(PAL)] due north of it [23:04:29] [Mo_D(PAL)] is the isthmus [23:04:49] [Mo_D(PAL)] you'd see the coastlines if you started heading up it [23:05:04] [conmcb25] Ok we stay south of the isthmus till we agree to alliance [23:05:09] [Mo_D(PAL)] great [23:05:15] [Mo_D(PAL)] and we won't come SW [23:05:21] [conmcb25] And you guys dont go SW [23:05:26] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] ideally if you could wait until we clear the barbs, that'd be better, but we understand curiousity too. [23:05:43] [Mo_D(PAL)] AFTER the alliance, of course [23:05:50] [conmcb25] Well this is a start for 5 turns [23:05:56] [Mo_D(PAL)] yes [23:06:04] [Mo_D(PAL)] well i feel good about this chat now [23:06:11] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] [23:06:17] [Mo_D(PAL)] could be the start of a productive relationship [23:06:20] [conmcb25] We can discus how much more valuable barbs are to you after we finalize an allianceub [23:06:23] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] Hoping so :-) [23:06:37] [conmcb25] Well they are [23:07:15] [conmcb25] The problem is guys we have very different cultures [23:07:21] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] :: [23:07:26] [conmcb25] and make decisions very differently [23:07:32] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] very complementary cultures though [23:07:38] [conmcb25] If we can get by those hurdles [23:07:45] [conmcb25] It will be great [23:07:59] [conmcb25] Yes its like getting past a language barrier [23:08:05] [Mo_D(PAL)] hehe [23:08:25] [Mo_D(PAL)] we are keeping that in mind [23:08:29] [conmcb25] once you are past it you find there are many cmmonalities and many complimnetray attributes [23:08:42] [conmcb25] Thats what I hope you can explain to your team [23:08:58] [Mo_D(PAL)] i think most of our team is familiar with Apolyton [23:09:00] [conmcb25] And thats what we are going to try like hell to explain to our team [23:09:27] [conmcb25] They maybe familiar [23:09:50] [conmcb25] But how many have done democracy games with us? [23:09:55] [conmcb25] Other than FP? [23:10:00] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Civer Dan. [23:10:30] [Mo_D(PAL)] I'm a Poly member myself [23:10:38] [Mo_D(PAL)] member of the forums anyway [23:10:43] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] As am I :-) [23:10:52] [Mo_D(PAL)] not in Demo game, mind you...but [23:10:54] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] enjoy the strategy forums that is :-) [23:10:54] [conmcb25] Sure and Im a member of the ladder [23:10:57] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] and post there as well [23:11:13] [Mo_D(PAL)] cool [23:11:17] [conmcb25] My whole point is we think and do things differently [23:11:23] [Mo_D(PAL)] you should come play a game then as you enjoy your Scotch [23:11:27] [conmcb25] Neither one is wrong [23:11:46] [conmcb25] and we just need to work the cultural barriers [23:11:49] [Mo_D(PAL)] agreed [23:11:54] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] :nods: [23:12:04] [conmcb25] OK [23:12:13] [conmcb25] Can we wrap this FP? [23:12:31] [Mo_D(PAL)] Yup I think so [23:12:37] [Mo_D(PAL)] we all set, Fried? [23:12:42] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] NO! Now we move to part nine of the negotiations! [23:12:47] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Placemats for the annual dinner! [23:12:47] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] lol [23:12:53] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] I have an agenda here damnit! [23:12:56] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] And we have a LOT to cover! [23:12:58] [conmcb25] I want blue ones dam it [23:13:00] [23:13:00] Mo_D(PAL) stabs Fried thru the heart with a pencil [23:13:03] [23:13:03] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Doh. [23:13:05] [Mo_D(PAL)] :P [23:13:05] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Shutting up now [23:13:10] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Yeah, we're done and satisfied. [23:13:17] [conmcb25] OK [23:13:18] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] pleasure meeting with you all :-) [23:13:19] [Mo_D(PAL)] nice job guys [23:13:34] [conmcb25] I hope you is gonna start with thisknow that now my real job [23:13:42] [conmcb25] Selling it at Apoly [23:13:48] [Mo_D(PAL)] you'll do fine [23:14:02] [Mo_D(PAL)] the plan should be able to sell itself [23:14:09] [Mo_D(PAL)] it's a good one for both teams [23:14:11] [conmcb25] My hope personally and I mean this is our two teams hook up [23:14:34] [Mo_D(PAL)] we're hoping the same thing [23:14:37] [conmcb25] I got this feeling we could do great things togther [23:14:40] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] very mutual feeling [23:14:40] [Mo_D(PAL)] a good ally is invaluable [23:14:48] [conmcb25] Bingo [23:14:53] [23:14:53] Mo_D(PAL) smiles [23:14:58] [23:14:58] [Mo_D(PAL)] ok fellas [23:15:01] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] okay, I need to go too at this point. [23:15:01] [[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]] :-) [23:15:02] [conmcb25] OK guys [23:15:06] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Pleasure chatting with you gents. [23:15:08] [conmcb25] Its scothc time [23:15:08] [Mo_D(PAL)] i'm goin to hook up a Ladder game now [23:15:15] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] COn, come play a ladder game. [23:15:17] [conmcb25] been good talking with you [23:15:17] [Mo_D(PAL)] see ya [23:15:18] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] Good with scotch. [23:15:28] [conmcb25] Ill see FP [23:15:32] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] goes for the rest of you as well if you like. [23:15:37] [conmcb25] I got to get the kids in bed first [23:15:43] [conmcb25] as Im sipping scothc [23:15:51] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] actually I have to go care for a sick g/f at least for a few [23:16:00] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] afk [23:16:04] [Godking_Rich] came back in time to say good by. Thanks guys. [23:16:07] [FriedrichPsital[PAL]] I'll have to trust you to show yourselves out. [23:16:07] [Godking_Rich] later. [23:16:11] [23:16:11] [ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL] waves. Off to get some food :-) [23:16:12] FriedrichPsital[PAL] has left the room. [23:16:13] [23:16:13] [conmcb25] cya [23:16:15] [Mo_D(PAL)] see ya Godking [23:16:20] [23:16:20] Mo_D(PAL) has left the room. [23:16:22] [ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL] has exited GameSpy Arcade. [23:16:23] Godking_Rich has exited GameSpy Arcade. ***And then I left. Log ends.

	02-05-2004 10:05									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Here is a basic summary of the chat we had with PAL:

Poly team: Con, GK and Kloreep
PAL: FP, Mo_D, Heroic_GC, and Lord_phan who ticked off FP so was kicked out early in the chat.

Long chat – 3 hours.

edit: by conmcb25

GK I deleted the rest of your post, it was already in the Pal_Diplo thread, we just want a short summary here.

Ok where to start:

Our team and PAL are DIFFERENT, they make decisons fast and do not want to worry about petty details. If we can overcome those cultural differences however, I believe may have have a first class ally in PAL.

1. They want what I call the "t1t for tat" tech deal. We give them every tech we get, they give us every tech they get. Do this thru Republic trading the CGN techs to them as well. We keep track of tech points as we go but we dont really worry about the exact count of points. If it starts to get out of whack one way or the other than we just switch high point techs for low point techs to keep things roughly even. (Research wise) I asked FP straight up if they did things like this in MP. He said yes, a few techs points here and there are no big deal. But rock solid alliances are

2. This tech deal and cooperation with them is contingent upon two things:

a. We agree to a "Cold War" with CDG after our current tech deal is up. No more tech trades with them with the idea of stunting them tech wise while we are in the final preps of an attack against CDG.

b. By the time we would get IW from them, we would agree to an alliance that would include all the provisions above.

3. We agreed to a NAP until we make our decision about the alliance/ tech cooperation wraped up deal.

4. We agreed not to go north of an isthmus just north of "meeting mountain" until after we agree or dont agree to the "deal"

5. They agree not to go SW for the 5 turns until we agree on a deal.

-They want a long term alliance that is game long.

-They want to carry this relationship to the next game

-They want to take CDG out and believe it is probably in the best interests of Poly to do so. More so than PAL, due to the closeness and how CGN will eventually stunt our eastern border.

-They want to get the other continent with us if they (Germans or French) dont do the job and feel if they (French and Germans)allied, based on the history between the French and Germans would probably could get the French to go along.

-first and foremost they need a commitment from us in 5 game turns.

Last edited by conmcb25 on 02-05-2004 at 10:51

	07-05-2004 03:17									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

Chat with PAL today, kind of impromptu, F-P caught me on AIM and I gave him the low down. They want to do the chat SOON

quote: PTAGuildmaster: So which way do the winds blow? conmcb25: I think you will be VERY Happy ;-) PTAGuildmaster: cool. PTAGuildmaster: if you can announce it sooner than 5 turns, it'll make people happy PTAGuildmaster: they really don't get this "Take forever" mentality. conmcb25: Ha Ha conmcb25: So basically now we are going to do it conmcb25: and we will work the issues as we go. conmcb25: The only thing we ask is we mutually pledge game long alliance PTAGuildmaster: I doubt that would be a problem conmcb25: We mutually pledge to kill CDG PTAGuildmaster: and then viciously manipulate the other continent into eating its own lunch? :P conmcb25: We mutually pledge to get the other continent if they don’t do the job for us conmcb25: bingo PTAGuildmaster: so when are we scheduling this chat? :P conmcb25: Soon conmcb25: You can tell your team if you like conmcb25: No reason to hold up conmcb25: Just tell em the three pledges we want to mutually make and we can go from there PTAGuildmaster: Full total tech share, full total war with CDG, full total evil manipulation of other continent? conmcb25: Bingo conmcb25: There are other issues we want to eventually discuss conmcb25: Wonder coordination PTAGuildmaster: I will alert PAL to the unofficial agreement then PTAGuildmaster: yeah, definitely conmcb25: Either buying. Loaning or gifting some of your barb workers eventually PTAGuildmaster: that's illegal I think conmcb25: Really? conmcb25: you can do it in the diplo screen? PTAGuildmaster: check the rules, but I think the Mayan slaves are specifically mentioned as a no-no PTAGuildmaster: because we can churn them so hard conmcb25: ah well conmcb25: Ill check conmcb25: So anyway we got a deal conmcb25: The alliance itself was overwhelmingly in your favor PTAGuildmaster: let us know when the official chat is - I would be stunned if there's a problem conmcb25: Like 22 votes to 4 or 3 conmcb25: OK PTAGuildmaster: the current vote on the alliance is 100% to 0%, provided you agreed to everything conmcb25: We will probably discuss this evening PTAGuildmaster: which your three points effectively do. conmcb25: Great PTAGuildmaster: alright, I had a field trip to chaperone today so I'm tired, gonna duck out. conmcb25: cya PTAGuildmaster signed off at 5:07:16 PM.

	07-05-2004 06:42									#16
	Get a bigger avatar today!

MRex cought me, and we had a little chat. Apparently there was a chat he had with Vander that asked us about an alliance for this game. He emailed me the chat log. I did not notice this earlier, so perhaps Vander did post this and I missed it.

quote: MRex: hi there Vander: hello there Vander: well, are there any questions that your team has for us? MicaelisRex: yes Tue Apr 27 18:31:48 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:lay 'em on me Tue Apr 27 18:33:00 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:First, CDG would like to restructure our tech trade some. Specifically, we would like if you could gift us Pottery before we get Writing. Tue Apr 27 18:33:40 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:Preferably next turn. Tue Apr 27 18:33:58 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:Ok, I'll get right on that. Tue Apr 27 18:35:37 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:Second, CDG is in favor of bringing us closer to an alliance with you guys. Tue Apr 27 18:35:52 2004:Louis_XXIV [0/] Login: Tue Apr 27 18:35:52 2004:Louis_XXIV [0/] IP:68.34.254.226 Tue Apr 27 18:35:52 2004:Louis_XXIV [0/] JoinRoom:IDG-Chat Tue Apr 27 18:35:57 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:Welcome Louis Tue Apr 27 18:36:08 2004:Louis_XXIV [1/] Msg:Hi Tue Apr 27 18:36:13 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:hey Tue Apr 27 18:36:55 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:Basically, the benefits of this is that by using our combined expertise not against each other, we can assure us both spots among the final 6 teams in game 2. Tue Apr 27 18:38:16 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:We've been thinking of the same things. We don't know what is out there. We want to have a good ally in case someone like the German team is on our continent. They're liable to start something, I jsut know it. Tue Apr 27 18:38:43 2004:Louis_XXIV [1/] Msg:I hope GWT is on our continent! o_O Tue Apr 27 18:39:10 2004:Vander [1/] Msgh yea? why is that? Tue Apr 27 18:39:16 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:Judging by the characteristics of our land, I'd say there is a good chance that there is a 3rd civ here somewhere. We haven't found one yet though. Tue Apr 27 18:39:32 2004:Louis_XXIV [1/] Msg:I just don't feel like dealing with them. Tue Apr 27 18:39:32 2004:Vander [1/] Msgh yea Tue Apr 27 18:39:35 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:the PTW thing Tue Apr 27 18:39:42 2004:Louis_XXIV [1/] Msg:lmao Tue Apr 27 18:40:07 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:I'm on the CFC team for that one, and I can say that we're not the happiest we can be with ze germans Tue Apr 27 18:40:43 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:Good thing GCA and GWT are separated this game. Tue Apr 27 18:40:46 2004:Louis_XXIV [1/] Msg:I'm playing for cgn, so I think you can imagine we're considerably less happy Tue Apr 27 18:41:00 2004:Vander [1/] Msgh very much so Tue Apr 27 18:41:24 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:So in the event of a warmongering team is on our land, what do you guys think CGN will do? Tue Apr 27 18:41:49 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:you mean CDG? Tue Apr 27 18:41:56 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:yea sorry

	07-05-2004 06:43									#17
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Second part.

quote: Tue Apr 27 18:42:57 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msgepends on the circumstances. But if we didn't have to worry about you guys as well I'm sure we would be better off. Same with you not having to worry about double teaming. Tue Apr 27 18:43:59 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:yea, that is the exact concern of our team. Although, the hopilite is a pretty good UU until the Beserkers come around Tue Apr 27 18:44:53 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:We would rather not wage war right away since we will be able to enjoy TR as our gov and jump way out ahead of the third civ. Tue Apr 27 18:45:15 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:yea, that's our plan as well Tue Apr 27 18:46:05 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:The last thing we want is to drop out of the game in the first round. Imagine the reputation hit... Tue Apr 27 18:46:14 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:Has your team come to any conclusions on the subject yet? Tue Apr 27 18:46:28 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:Yes, we were the first to drop out last game... Tue Apr 27 18:47:04 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:Which subject? Tue Apr 27 18:47:33 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:Of a game long NAP or alliance. Tue Apr 27 18:48:25 2004onegeal [0/] JoinRoom:IDG-Chat Tue Apr 27 18:48:33 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:hi Tue Apr 27 18:48:38 2004onegeal [1/] Msg:Hi... Tue Apr 27 18:48:41 2004onegeal [1/] Msg:Hmmmm.... Tue Apr 27 18:48:45 2004:Louis_XXIV [1/] Msg:*welcome* Tue Apr 27 18:48:46 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:yo Tue Apr 27 18:48:48 2004onegeal [1/] Msg:I like this room... Tue Apr 27 18:48:56 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:about the NAP Tue Apr 27 18:49:27 2004:Louis_XXIV [1/] Msgonegeal, Play around with smiles when things become slow Tue Apr 27 18:49:47 2004onegeal [1/] Msg:is there a list of smilies? Tue Apr 27 18:49:59 2004:Louis_XXIV [1/] Msg:right click Tue Apr 27 18:50:16 2004:Louis_XXIV [1/] Msg:where you write a message Tue Apr 27 18:50:24 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:Apolyton likes it. It would be best for my team to keep up good relations with our neighbors. We have worked together well in the past, and it would be easy to keep that up Tue Apr 27 18:50:31 2004onegeal [1/] Msg::mischief: Tue Apr 27 18:50:54 2004:Louis_XXIV [1/] Msg:Good to hear Tue Apr 27 18:50:59 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:Excellent Tue Apr 27 18:51:02 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:Personally, I'd want to have a good, solid alliance going between our teams Tue Apr 27 18:51:22 2004:Vander [1/] MsgIt keeps me working ) Tue Apr 27 18:52:16 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:Consider the NAP proposed then, so your team can work on ratifying it now, if they haven't already. Tue Apr 27 18:52:23 2004:Vander [1/] Msgk Tue Apr 27 18:52:41 2004onegeal [1/] Msg:I thought we had a NAP already? Tue Apr 27 18:52:48 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:we have a 20 turn one Tue Apr 27 18:52:54 2004:Louis_XXIV [1/] Msg:this one will last much longer Tue Apr 27 18:52:56 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:this would be a game long one Tue Apr 27 18:53:05 2004onegeal [1/] Msg:hmm.... Tue Apr 27 18:53:09 2004onegeal [1/] Msg:interesting... Tue Apr 27 18:53:12 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:I'll get a better proposal going, and work on the warmongers; get them to calm down. (They can be so annoying sometimes) Tue Apr 27 18:53:20 2004:Louis_XXIV [1/] Msg:lol Tue Apr 27 18:53:27 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:Some of you want to go to war with us? Tue Apr 27 18:53:32 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg: Tue Apr 27 18:54:02 2004onegeal [1/] Msg:We have a big team with many opinions... Tue Apr 27 18:54:02 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:anyway Tue Apr 27 18:54:18 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:it's jsut that we have guys that "want to keep the options open" Tue Apr 27 18:54:21 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:don't worry Tue Apr 27 18:54:35 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:Hopefully the peaceful minds will prevail, or we'll have no choice but to destroy you Tue Apr 27 18:54:39 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:they're few in number and easly swayed by the majority opinion Tue Apr 27 18:54:43 2004onegeal [1/] Msg::doh: Tue Apr 27 18:54:51 2004onegeal [1/] Msg:ha! Cool! Tue Apr 27 18:55:10 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:So once I get the councils onto the nap, we'll be golden Tue Apr 27 18:55:30 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:Anything you wanted to ask us? Tue Apr 27 18:55:46 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:How is it going? How's the team doing? Tue Apr 27 18:56:01 2004:Louis_XXIV [1/] Msg::rolleye: Tue Apr 27 18:56:09 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:We're doing well. As you can see, we've built our second city. Tue Apr 27 18:56:13 2004onegeal [1/] Msg:Congrats on Minn... good site locatioin... Tue Apr 27 18:56:14 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:very good Tue Apr 27 18:58:12 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:we have it right now Tue Apr 27 18:58:15 2004:Vander [1/] Msgk Tue Apr 27 18:58:32 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:so you'll get it in a few hours most likely Tue Apr 27 18:58:38 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:maybe less, FP is on right now Tue Apr 27 18:58:38 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:cool Tue Apr 27 18:59:00 2004onegeal [1/] Msg:ah... I'll be at work when we get it. Tue Apr 27 18:59:18 2004onegeal [1/] Msg:dinner time... Tue Apr 27 18:59:21 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:I'l prob be studying for tests Tue Apr 27 18:59:24 2004:Vander [1/] Msgr dinner Tue Apr 27 18:59:40 2004onegeal [1/] Msg:later... Tue Apr 27 18:59:43 2004onegeal [0/] Logout:_ Tue Apr 27 18:59:44 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:cya later Tue Apr 27 18:59:48 2004:Louis_XXIV [1/] Msg:bye Tue Apr 27 18:59:55 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:I think that's everything Tue Apr 27 19:00:17 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:That's all we have Tue Apr 27 19:00:21 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:us too Tue Apr 27 19:00:53 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:well tehn, it's been fun guys, and productive Tue Apr 27 19:01:44 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:by the way, is there a way to copy this chat out of the java client? I want to keep it for records. Tue Apr 27 19:01:55 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:I'll email you a copy Tue Apr 27 19:02:01 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:cool Tue Apr 27 19:02:23 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:you have my address? Tue Apr 27 19:02:38 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:The same one we send diplomatic stuff to? Tue Apr 27 19:02:45 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:yup Tue Apr 27 19:02:50 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msgk, we got it then Tue Apr 27 19:03:01 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:alrighty Tue Apr 27 19:03:08 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:Good luck to you guys then, I'm gonna play our turn now Tue Apr 27 19:03:12 2004:Vander [1/] Msg:until we meet again, gentlemen Tue Apr 27 19:03:18 2004:MicaelisRex [1/] Msg:Cya later Tue Apr 27 19:03:21 2004:Louis_XXIV [1/] Msg:bye Tue Apr 27 19:03:21 2004:Vander [0/] Logout:_

	07-05-2004 07:19									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

In this impromptu chat with MRex, we discussed a couple of things:

I implied that Vander may have been negligant in posting about this (I do not know, as I do not read everything, particularly chat logs), but that I would post this in our forum and have our team discuss the alliance proposal (of course, the discussion will be how to convince him that we are harmless while we are actually aiming at his back, but that is his problem).

I said we did not meet any other team yet. I discussed this with Con, Kloreep, Togas and Arn in chat, and they agreed with sending a formal letter out to them indicating that they will soon be meeting up with PAL, and that I couldn't say anything to them.

We also talked about our tech trade. They will finish writing in 6. I told them we will finish IW in about 7. Each team will gift to the other. They asked what we will be researching to make up for the COL / Phil time difference, and I said we lean towards CB. Didn't say anything about gifiting to them (couldn't remember if it was a part of the deal or not).

quote: Session Start: Thu May 06 20:58:55 2004 Session Ident: MRex [20:58] Session Ident: MRex (~Micaelis@ool-44c08bf4.dyn.optonline.net) [20:58] MRex> hello [20:59] GK-PBEM> hi. how ya doin [20:59] MRex> i'm doing good thanks [21:00] MRex> I'm from CDG btw [21:00] GK-PBEM> Cool. I got cought stealing wireless internet, so I am back to using my old 486 and burning cd's back and forth for my email games... aargh [21:00] MRex> heh, sorry to hear [21:01] GK-PBEM> Iknow - our republic deal is going well. [21:01] =GK-PBEM> I owe you an appology. [21:01] MRex> anyway, at the last chat we held you guys said you would talk about setting up a game long alliance with us. april 29 i emailed you asking how that was going, no word back yet... [21:02] GK-PBEM> When we first met, I told you we were to your north, but we had two warriors who near you and people were wanting to take out your settler. [21:02] Rex> we're glad you didn't [21:03] MRex> [21:03] email? Never saw or heard of it. [21:03] GK-PBEM> who did you send it to. [21:03] MRex> sorry, i sent it to your ambassador - vander [21:04] GK-PBEM> hmmm, let me check the forum. brb. [21:06] GK-PBEM> Checked the forum. Didn't see anything. Vander has not been around much, but this should have made it. [21:06] MRex> hmm, ok [21:06] MRex> what is happening regarding the proposal anyway? [21:07] GK-PBEM> Send it to me, and I will post it. [21:07] GK-PBEM> godking at prodigy dot net [21:08] GK-PBEM> Which proposal. As I said, I see nothing about an alliance. [21:09] MRex> sent [21:09] OK. This dial up crap takes a bit, but I will post it once I receive it. [21:09] MRex> we chatted about it on (i believe) 4/27. someone should've said something [21:10] GK-PBEM> Ya. Who did you chat with? Vander? If so, I will have to report this, as it is something important if our communication fails. [21:10] MRex> Vander and Donegal [21:11] Don also.... damn. Vander has not been around. I don't understand about don though... Let me look into this. If you need, feel free to email me as I will see the team gets the message. Damn. [21:12] GK-PBEM> I am Minister of Interior, so I get all my jollies playing with food and such. [21:12] MRex> Yeah, it's amazing how much energy goes into all that [21:13] GK-PBEM> Oh ya, and now without high speed internet.... [21:13] MRex> If you don't mind my asking, (since no one else is around ) did you guys meet a third civ yet? [21:16] GK-PBEM> No,you? [21:17] MRex> Hmm, OK. No. Small section edited out RE: PBem we are both in. [21:20] GK-PBEM> Tech deal for C3C - we will probably finish IW in 7 turns or so (settler production dependant). What is your schedule for writing? [21:21] MRex> About the same, 6 turns from the one we just played (2430BC) [21:22] GK-PBEM> Cool. Are we trading them the same turn? or when we each research we just gift? I forget. [21:23] MRex> the deal says we gift, but if it is the same turn we can probably just trade [21:24] godking> I find that in pbem if you trade, you get it a turn after gifting. I would prefer to gift if that is OK by your team. [21:25] MRex> that will be fine [21:25] godking> Cool [21:27] MRex> after we trade IW for Writ, we are supposed to do CoL while you do Phil. considering that is 10 v. 6 in tech value, you will probably be done before us, which you can't be. would you research something else like wheel beforehand to make it even? [21:27] godking> Ya, that is our plan. We actually are thinking along the CB track and not wheel, but have not yet made up our mind. [21:28] ok, as long as it takes enough time to allow us to get and gift you CoL first [21:29] MRex> anyway, i gotta get going. nice talking to you [21:29] godking> Ya, our idea is that you tell us how long it will take to finish COL, then we go the route of Phil with a 5 turn buffer (in case of minor changes), with the free tech being republic, which we gift both phil and rep to you. [21:29] godking> ya, same here. later. [21:30] MRex> ok, bye [21:30] godking> bye [21:30] No such nick/channel

	11-05-2004 18:48									#19
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Letter to PAL sent about 12 hours ago:

And yes I signed the actual letter Ill post the entire corrospondence latter today, right now I am sort of busy

quote: Dear Peoples Army of the Ladder. The great peoples of Apolyton are pleased to officially inform you that we have decided to accept your gracious offer of forming an alliance. We would like you to agree to this proclamation: "GRAND ALLIANCE OF APOLYTON AND THE PEOPLE'S ALLIANCE OF THE LADDER Both teams hereby swear an oath of unity and brotherhood. For the duration of this game we hereby declare that we will fully and openly work together and do everything in our power to achieve our common goals: the elimination of all teams not a part of our alliance and the strengthening of our great empires. We will cooperate in all matters of science, economy, and military. We will share our knowledge and our industry to the benefit of the greater alliance. No team or alliance shall stand against us. Together, we will move forward to the final game and together, we will be victorious.ˇ¨ I believe this covers the areas that we both felt needed to be covered. " We would like to personally thank you for that wonderful letter you sent us and also the productive chat we had about a week ago. It became apparent to most in Apolyton that you are a sincere team looking to form a strong cooperative alliance. May that alliance prove fruitful and may we both successfully progress to the final game with a strong friendship between our two peoples. We would like to schedule another team chat with you at your convienece, to begin discussing the details of our alliance and our common goals. And the steps each team will take to get there. It has been great doing business with you.

	12-05-2004 03:16									#20
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Reply to my letter to PAL and my quick response back.

They want to chat tonight at 2100 Eastern Time

I assume thats at GAMESPY, before you groan OCT_X

I really need to get you in there once to help these guys get logged onto mIRC so we can lure them over here

quote: I will post this in my forum immediately. Im not sure how many will be able to make it by 9:00PM Eastern. I can certainly be in sometime after 1000 Eastern (after the kids get to bed. ) The wording if it is any consolation to some of your doubters was deliberately "Big Picture", because we didn't think a 15 page legal document would go over to well Talk to you later and thanks for the response. conmcb25 Apoly Ambassador to PAL. Quoting PTAGuildmaster@aol.com: > Gentlemen - > > We are of course thrilled to receive your proposal. There are a few of us > that might want to nitpick incredibly choosy words (some in every bunch, eh?) > but > that may not even come to light. Not everyone appreciates and trusts the > goodwill of Apolyton (and dare I say, of PAL? ) equally. > > I propose that we sit down tonight and discuss multiple points, say around > 9pm EST, for a *shorter* and more direct meeting about the future plans? > Things > on our tentative agenda: > > The particulars of our tech plans, with some eyesight towards completion > times - though obviously this is tougher. > A possible war plan we've been preparing in-house. > The establishment of trade routes between our empires for resources and > luxuries. > The exchange of (legally) as much information about the whereabouts of our > neighbor and his disposition of resources/luxuries/cities as can be possible > to > aid in our planning. > The exchange of bananas and jungle foliage as demanded by your Banana God who > > lives nearby our lands. > > ____________________________________ > Friedrich Psitalon, > President Term 1, People's Army of the Ladder > Science is for those who learn; poetry, for those who know. > -Joseph Roux, "Meditations of a Parish Priest" >

	12-05-2004 08:19									#21
	Got spare money?

Chat with PAL just completed, I came in late and got the log from on of the PAL guys: (part 1)

Welcome to PAL Diplomacy Chambers
Kloreep has entered the room.
Kloreep> Hi
Kloreep> Togas should hopefully be here soon
Togas has entered the room.
Togas> yo
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Greetings!
TheDohr-{PAL}> greetings
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Just a minute, still dragging people in here
Togas> We're still waiting for conmcb to show up
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> He told me he'd be an hour late
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> So we waiting for Con to show before we get started? Either way is fine
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL>
Togas> I feel as though we should, as he's our #1 guy with all things PAL, but i don't want to wait TOO long ... I have a basketball game to watch in 1:30 hours
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> he told me 10EST was his earliest available
Togas> those darn kids of his always getting in the way....
Togas>
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> honestly, what we've got to chat about tonight is less diplomatic and more brass tacks, though. Whatever, I'm flexible
TheDohr-{PAL}> you can always watch with one eye :P
Togas> can't. Have the TV in one room, computer in the other
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> now that's a serious ergonomic failure.
Togas> My signifigant other insisted on having a "study" and a "living room" and not combining the two .... some sort of female fung shuy issue.
TheDohr-{PAL}> can you set up some intricate aray of mirrors?
Togas> you know, if I had two mirrors....
Togas> but beside the point, we may as well start, and I'll let con get mad at me later when he arrives and it's all settled
TheDohr-{PAL}> as Fried said, diplomatics aren't too important no more
Togas> ok. Let's begin:
Togas> I am one of the Consuls of Apolyton. One of the 3 elected leaders of the team
Togas> Kloreep serves as our Deputy Consul, sort of like VP
Togas> OctavianX and Donegeal are our other 2 consuls
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Yep, Kloreep was vicious and tooth-baring at the last meeting
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> he thumped us but good.
Togas> I was hoping at least one would make it
TheDohr-{PAL}> Fried is our Prez
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Con stepped down or was voted out, may I ask?
TheDohr-{PAL}> I'm our humble FR minister
Togas> he stepped down. Too busy IRL. he will now serve as your ambassador
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> I understand the sentiment entirely
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> just wondering if he got voted out for getting you entangled with those PAL bastards.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Alright. Shall we just dive right in, or do you have any interesting news to share first?
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> We have a fed tidbits
Togas> We'll have to keep details about his "resignation" a secret for now
Togas> Not interesting news off the top of my head. we plan to play the save after this chat is concluded.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> alright.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Well, we sent you Iron Working accepted.
Kloreep> Sorry guys, GG. Likely won't be back in time for the end of the chat unless it's long
Togas> excellent
Togas> btw, Kloreep has to pick up his sister at the airport, so he'll idle and log
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> can you play the save far enough to find out if you have iron right quick? hehe
Togas> sure, if you don't mind waiting. i can pop in the cd right now
TheDohr-{PAL}> go ahead
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> great. It's rather important to know if you have iron...
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> 'cause we don't. :/
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> (Boy would we not be admitting THAT without an alliance.)
TheDohr-{PAL}> without a Strong Alliance
Togas> scanning the map now for iron....
Togas> of the entire known map, I see ONE iron
Togas> it's to our west
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> near enough for you guys to make use of it?
(ZIP)Mo_D has the "no-iron blues"
Togas> I do not see any iron near cdg
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> that's a plus then.
TheDohr-{PAL}> how much of CDG have you uncovered?
Togas> we have most of their land uncovered
TheDohr-{PAL}> great
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> cool.
(ZIP)Mo_D smiles
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> okay. ::checks his agenda::
Togas> just missing 4-5 tiles inside their border
Togas> our iron is 8 tiles from Apolyton. we can put it to use
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Oh.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Forgot to mention- Mo-D is our Vice President
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> anyhow.
Togas> and knowing the layout of the cdg land we see, it's extremely unlikely that there's iron in that little black spot
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> that's good to know. Makes life a bit easier.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Hey, great, there's the Min-Interior, gang's all here
[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]> sorry I'm late :-)
Togas> good. so we have your FA, VP, and MoI
(ZIP)Mo_D>
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Alright. We have a rough plan we'd like to lay out in front of you.
Togas> lay it on me
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> For the "aggressive assimiliaton' of CDG by APO, basically.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Okay, we're estimating 30turns(ish) to the completion of Philo and the catapult to Republic.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Here's where we may have to ask you to strain your honor a bit.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> We'd like to see you claim to have been beaten to Republic and stall for about 15-20 more turns
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> while you "research" it
Togas> ?
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> we think that by the 50 turns from now mark we could have a VERY sizable horse army together
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> and that combined with your forces - whatever you have on muster by then - would be enough to smash them
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> right AFTER you "finish" Republic
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> give them the tech
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> and they go into anarchy.
TheDohr-{PAL}> beaten to Philosophy that is, and thus not gotten Rep as free tech
Togas> as per our tech agreement, we will research philosophy and then get republic for free
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> right
Togas> it would be impossible to be beaten to philosophy
Togas> cdg started on writing immediately
Togas> no other team has alphabet
TheDohr-{PAL}> is it?
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Sumeria could have "hut teched"
Togas> only 2 teams with ABC are us and CDG
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> and they're certainly growing enough
TheDohr-{PAL}> it would be possible "we" beat you to it
Togas> they started researching writing as their first tech
Togas> you'd have to get alpha from a hut ... but first you'd have to get all the lesser techs
Togas> cb, wc, myst, wheel
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Well, it IS a bit of a tale to tell them
Togas> they'd be fools to switch to republic so soon, anyhow. it's a horrible early government
TheDohr-{PAL}> well, we got bronze from a hut, could as well have been Alpha
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> You don't have to get all the lesser techs to get alpha
Togas> they don't have the economy to support an army
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> we got bronze on turn 2 from a hutpop.
Togas> goodie hut always gives you the lowest tech you don't already have
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ::cough:: As you say, sir.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Our historians might disagree.
Togas> anyhow, back to the plan
Togas> 50 turns sounds reasonable
Togas> we may not be able to delay republic, but we could pray that they switch to it, because it would kill their chances of building a sizable army
Togas> you just can't support a large army with a small nation in republic.
(ZIP)Mo_D> hmmm...
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Well, assuming they wouldn't switch immediately, that might make the 50 turn timetable a bit more desirable in any case.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> the idea is that we want to hit them before they get Masonry somehow, or during Anarchy so they can't rush walls.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Horses vs walled spears, y'know, painful and all.
Togas> that's probably going to require an attack much sooner than 50 turns
TheDohr-{PAL}> even with walls we can have 'm though... it's more important we get 'm early so we peacefully settle the continent with the two of us
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> perhaps you could offer to trade them masonry+something for map making, and they work on mapmaking?
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> thereby buying us some time while they trundle away on that tech
Togas> that's a good idea
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> oh
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> we should note something
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> We made contact with CDG today
Togas> once this rep deal is done, we'll have them start on MM
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> they did NOT contact us.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> we contacted them
Togas> any news from them?
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> and the letter we got back was as diplomatically neutral and time-stall as you could get
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> would've done the great Togas himself proud.
Togas>
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> the problem with asking them to do MM in exchange for other techs though...
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> is that it all revolves around the idea of "lulling them to complacency" and not giving them masonry.
Togas> one thing seems clear to me ... they desire an alliance with us. They've been far more active diplomaticly ... dropping in to chat a few times in the past week
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> which technically would be another "treaty breaker"
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Well, I would point out that they'd be insane not to look for you as a friend
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> that close?
Togas> one problem we have is that we desire mathematics, which requires us to get masonry. So once this Rep deal is done, that's the direction we would head.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Erm. You have Masonry.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> We gave it to you some time ago.
Togas> I know, but they don't know that we have it
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> aha.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Well, if you want to research Math next, that's fine
Togas> we haven't revealed to them any of our trades with you, nor any of our arrangements
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> I'm not sure I see the relevance of you already having your claimed trade with them.
Togas> we'd probably tell them we were working masonry, then math, etc
(ZIP)Mo_D approves of that
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ::
Togas> what we can do is this:
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> what EVER are you researching math for? ::grin::
Togas> make a big package tech deal:
Togas> we give them masonry, math, the wheel, etc ... they give MM, lit, whatever
Togas> and we trade when it's all done
Togas> would buy a lot of time
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> mmm.
TheDohr-{PAL}> that's another thing... how to coordinate our FR towards CDG
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> that would probably bring us to the 50 turn mark.... but...
TheDohr-{PAL}> but that's for later
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> again, the threat of rushed walls
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> that smears horsemen pretty quick.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> We don't have sharp pointy metal sticks like you lot.
Togas> is it against the rules to allow you to capture some cats from us?
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> heh
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> I think we were planning on coordinated strikes...
TheDohr-{PAL}> not literaly
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> but yes, I think it might be
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> We were thinking you'd move a sword stack or something similar into view
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> they respond by swinging units to meet you
Togas> we'd use more SoD style .... yes. Swords with Hops and Cats
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> we hit from another angle with speed and beat the reinforce.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> you'd want to use Hops this early? ::raises an eyebrow::
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> planning on an early Republic switch? hehe
Togas> well my team probably wouldn't want to, but I don't mind it as much.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> I don't think it'd be needed, hoenstly.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> They're growing so slowly
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> and if we have 30-40 horses, and you have 30 or so swords...
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> don't blink, they'll be gone
Togas> To be honest, 30 swords may be a bit high for us. I'll have to let

Last edited by conmcb25 on 12-05-2004 at 19:28

	12-05-2004 08:21									#22
	Got spare money?

PART 2

[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ::Muse::
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Okay, well, let us know
Togas> np
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> We can watch their growth and gauge troops from it
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> we show as STRONG to them right now
Togas> absolutely
Togas> we also show as strong to them
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> and we're not exactly ....
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> well suited.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Bit thin at the moment, barbs running wild
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> actually.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> gimme a sec
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Doing math, dangerous for english teachers
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> okay....at most, right now, CDG has 2 warriors.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> no other military units.
Togas> do curraghs count?
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> no military strength, but if they did, that warrior count could only go down.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> how do you guys feel about a warrior rush? heh
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Dune's game!
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> kidding
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> mostly.
Togas>
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> but it does suggest CDG isn't paying much attention to its military.
Togas> anyhow ... what else shall we discuss?
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Okay, so let's table that for now.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Heh, nice
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> You get back to us on the military growth issue
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Next one is unscheduled
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> and you may want to call us insane...
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> but uh... you sure about the SoZ?
Togas> my team adores that wonder
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Zeus-cav aren't upgradeable.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> And there won't be a continental target for them
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> by the time we get across the ocean.... they're fodder.
Togas> Very good points.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> No one on our team has mentioned it yet
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> and I'll try like hell to dissuade it
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> but uh... if you're us...
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> "Hi, we're the no-iron guys!"
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ::grin::
Togas> Understood. I'll have to get a Wonder thread started up to revisit the issue
Togas> we mostly fell in love with the SoZ idea when we first discovered ivory
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> just a thought. having free raiders to run loose in unsettled lands might be spiffy too though
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> yeah, I understand entirely
(ZIP)Mo_D> it'll take time away from "Stack of Doom" production
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> we were praying for the same.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> if you guys have a coastal city, a Lighthouse might be spiff. Make quiet diplomatic contact with one civ over there, etc.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> anyhow. That was a sidetrack.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Next thing, we were looking for advice/opinion.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> How do you want US to play diplomatically with CDG?
Togas> gotcha, but it's something I'll discuss with my team for sure
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> kinda weird
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> We were thinking "dumb and impassive"
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> the GWT defense
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> hehe
Togas> I'd recommend that you be somewhat similar to cdg's polite but distant approach
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> "We're researching that tech too, right behind you"
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> sooner or later they'll ask for techs and when we refuse, that may send up warning flares.
TheDohr-{PAL}> we can play 'good cop, bad cop' if we coordinate our diplo towards CDG
Togas> and, yeah, you're definately on the right track with that
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> but yeah, I think maybe stretching our diplo-response times as far as we can might be wise. heh
Togas> also a good idea
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Okay. We'll try to be a non-entity as much as possible
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> What will you tell them about us?
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> technically they don't know we have contact yet, but that would be hard to sell, long-term
Togas> we have told them that we met one of your warriors and are trying to locate your homeland
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> heh.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Right, useful to know we've just been caught in a lie...
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ::grimace::
Togas> we are going to tell them very little, if we can help it. If we must, we'll let them know that we're waiting for you to get back to us
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> :makes a note to smack our CDG diplomat:
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> we suggested we had only been talking to barbarians
Togas> well, don't stress too much. we've already told 2 lies to CDG that were dumb lies that our diplmat should have known better
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> well, maybe we'll call you barbarians then. hehe
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> say "UG!" once in awhile, it's all good.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ::muse::
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Okay.
Togas> we later had to apologize, and say that he was being too cautious, etc
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ::
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> I think we should make a note to be careful in the future
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> my VP just pointed out that we're already leaving puzzle pieces for CDG
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> "APO lied and apologized.... PAL lied ...."
Togas> we should. Don't want to act suspicous
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> last thing we want is them smelling a rat
(ZIP)Mo_D winces
Togas> we're going to have to eventually admit to some tech trades between us, so we'll want to get our stories straight
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ::
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Okay, next thing.
Togas> FYI, we have told them we're researching IW
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ::
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> okay.
Togas> so don't reveal you've given it to us
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> We don't plan on telling them ANYTHING at this point
Togas> good
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> literally "uh. Duh... we'll get back to you... we're new to this diplostuff"
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> "Meeting? What's that?"
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Next on the agenda-
Togas> you should get them used to conducting diplomacy thru email only
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Here's the crate of Bananas we were ordered to give you.
Togas> tell 'em you guys don't use mIRC
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ::hands you a crate of bananas::
Togas>
Togas> Con will be pleased
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> :makes check marks:
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Okay... excess resources
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> We have an extra fur lying around.
(ZIP)Mo_D> we have excess bananas!
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> wait
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> maybe not
Togas> we have excess ivory hanging about.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> President on crack
Togas> well, once CDG is gone
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> We have excess crack lying around
(ZIP)Mo_D> lol
Togas> oh, and grapes!
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> we think part of the balancing of the "high opportunity" start we had up here
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> was a distinct lack of many resources
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> one fur
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> thazit
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> one horse
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> thazit
(ZIP)Mo_D> we only have enough furs to make mink coats for the Mayan ladies, unfortunately
(ZIP)Mo_D> so far...
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> so far, true
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> there's some dyes midway down the isthumus, I think
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> we may go for those.
Togas> who's closer to 'em?
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> uh... lemme check
Togas> if we can get you guys wine and ivory, perhaps you can let us have the silks. would give us each 3 luxes
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> I am truly on crack apparently
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ::is staring at the map::
Togas> oh, wait!
Togas> FURS!!!
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> we have one fur
TheDohr-{PAL}> lol
Togas> near the cdg capital
(ZIP)Mo_D> hmmmm...
Togas> we can swoop those up
(ZIP)Mo_D> we could probably arrange something to that effect
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> there's silks around somewhere?
(ZIP)Mo_D salivates
Togas> there's got to be more than 1 silk on this rock
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> I'm all confused now
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ::stares::
Togas> so far we see 3 ivory, 2 wines, 1 fur (plus your fur) .... there's certainly at least 2 silks.
Togas> we'll find 'em soon, I'm sure
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> unless we're "balanced"
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> remember, they did alter the map a bit.
Togas> I'll keep my optimism ... there's more for us to search
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> we have a significant portion of moutnains around us that are iron free, alas
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> and this may amuse you - we recently saw something we MP junkies never see
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> a Volcano..... THAT WAS ACTIVE!
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ::shrieks and runs around a bit::
(ZIP)Mo_D has nightmares of Pompeii
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> That was when the Banana god spoke. That guy has serious power.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ::Cringe::
(ZIP)Mo_D> ::
Togas> LOL!
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> okay, in another attempt to stay on topic - how to set up these trade routes...
Togas> we'll have to build harbors
Togas> will be too long to road
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> checking.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ::is listening to the Min-Interior talk dirty in his ear::
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you guys have a fairly productive coastal facility at this point?
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> hehe
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> We don't
Togas> not QUITE yet
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> we REALLY don't at the moment
Togas> but we have potential for a few
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> between building the harbor...
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> revealing the land...
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> etc, that'd take awhile
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> comparatively, you're looking at the Industrial slavemonger civ
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> who needs to road that way for growth
TheDohr-{PAL}> how much tiles of road does it take you to get a road to meeting mountain?
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> and will be our siege road to CDG anyhow.
Togas> heck, if you can road to us ... more power to ya
Togas> to meeting mtn ... let me check
Togas> not that many, actually. we're going to build in that direction
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> getting an exact count
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> from our outer current road
Togas> after we build our next city, we'll need 6 more tiles
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> WOW.
Togas> not counting the mtn itself
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> You're close!
Togas> we're building towards CDG
(ZIP)Mo_D> yeah a road is definitely the way to go
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> good, we were going to ask you build in their face.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> okay.
(ZIP)Mo_D> we can road there quickly
Togas> we can cover the roads to meeting mtn.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> we're getting a rough estimate on turns
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> to meeting mtn
(ZIP)Mo_D> we need to raod it anyway for fast movement of our "CDG Death Stack"
conmcb25> Is your area east or west of meeting mountain?
Togas> Look who showed up!
conmcb25> Howdy
conmcb25>
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> okay....
conmcb25> Kids are in bed
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ROUGH approximation
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> 30 turns, give/take 5
(ZIP)Mo_D hugs his Apolytonian brother-in-arms
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> more on that later
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> we've got to slog through forest at best, jungle-mountain at worst
conmcb25> Love yoy too Mo_D
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> and we're not sure how fast we can devote extra workers.
(ZIP)Mo_D> hehe
Togas> excellent. give me a short break to play the save before my basketball game
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> the only problem is... I'll readily admit this
Togas> I'll let con do the talking

Last edited by conmcb25 on 12-05-2004 at 19:27

	12-05-2004 08:22									#23
	Got spare money?

PART 3

[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> lux wise, you'll be doing the giving here
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> at least for now as far as we can tell
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> we have land left to explore
conmcb25> OK but I think the only extra we will have is Grapes
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> but for now we won't have much to offer. ::shrug::
Togas> IMO, if we have extra luxes, doesn't do us any good to sit on them.
(ZIP)Mo_D> a strong PAL is a strong Apolyton
conmcb25> Bing0
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> true. and the extra ivory and extra fur will be compliments of the PAL Mounted War Brigade
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> hehe
conmcb25> KLO we do hve two Grapes dont we?
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> what's the legality of short-term iron trades? ::thinking of upgrades eventually::
Togas> after cdg falls, us giving you ivory is not nearly enough.
Togas> we have 2 grapes
conmcb25> OK
conmcb25> legality?
Togas> idle a bit. save time.
conmcb25> What do you mean?
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> you hand us iron for 2-3 turns
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> we upgrade our horse legions later on
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> before we go visit/smear someone overseas
Togas> con, we can give away our iron, but to cancel the trade, they'd have to declare war on us
conmcb25> It legal thru the diplo screen
conmcb25> and you can do it in SP
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> we could always let a barb wander across the road. ::Grin::
conmcb25> So why not?
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> "Heeeeere Barbie! Nice worker for ya!"
Togas>
(ZIP)Mo_D> well we may uncover iron yet...
(ZIP)Mo_D> so it may be moot
Togas> true, we COULD gift it, and then cut the road to cancel the trade
Togas> I think that's legal
conmcb25> Exactly
conmcb25> I dont remember anyhing in the rules that would disallow it
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> alright. well, that's down the road a bit.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Our land is somewhat conducive to saltpeter, so we're hoping there
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> How conducive is yours?
(ZIP)Mo_D> well we can investigate that further down the road
conmcb25> OK
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> we've got a monster wetland south of us, so we're thinking good rubber/oil thoughts someday
TheDohr-{PAL}> I believe resource sharing was ILLEGAL
conmcb25> Really?
conmcb25> Hmmm
conmcb25> Keep talking Im going to check
Togas> con, keep talking 'cause I'm semi-idle. playing the save right now
Togas> well check into the resource thing tomorrow
conmcb25> Yes sir
conmcb25> here it is:
conmcb25> 1.2 - Resource Sharing Exploit
conmcb25> Description: No team or individual is permitted to share a single resource through the use of the Resource Sharing Exploit.
conmcb25> Definition: Two teams gifting and regifting a resource as well as cancelling it allow two teams to get use of the same resource that wouldn't be otherwise possible.
conmcb25> Purpose: A resource is to be used by one team per turn, no exceptions.
conmcb25> Verdict: Using this exploit or any other exploit that allows Resource Sharing through any m
conmcb25> I think "the purpose"
conmcb25> is the key
Togas> PER TURN
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> aha.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> right, that's easy enough.
conmcb25> In other words
TheDohr-{PAL}> said so
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> nono, that means we can hang on to it for 2-3 turns and be legal
Togas> yep
conmcb25> You cant gift it to us on turn 40
conmcb25> we use it
conmcb25> Then gift it back so you can use it the same turn
Togas> exactly
conmcb25> We can always ask FortyJ before we do it
conmcb25> Just to be sure
Togas> but giving it to them for a period of time that's shorter than 20 turns is legit.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Hey, dumb question we should've asked before
Togas> say ... 5 turns.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> CDG horses?
conmcb25> Yes they do
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ::grimace::
Togas> They have horses very close to their cities
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Okay.
conmcb25> But its not built to yet
conmcb25> in the first ring of cities
Togas> they do not have wheel
Togas> and do not know yet
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> okay, no way for you to snap them ahead of major action then
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> that's true.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ::Muse::
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> What kind of diplomatic tomfoolery can we pull to keep Wheel AND Masonry out of their hands?
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> heh
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> or rather, Horseback
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Wheel not so big a dela
conmcb25> we have no deal with thm for the wheel
conmcb25> or horseback
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> okay...
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> so after the Republic deal is done
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ::muse::
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Okay, here's an option.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> You guys don't want to fink out on CDG in a tech deal, and we respect that.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> We are not quite so.... morally strictured.
(ZIP)Mo_D nods
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ::cough::
conmcb25> he he
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Why don't WE offer them Masonry and Wheel for Mapmaking?
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Timing it for right after they finish Code
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> and...well... we'll fink
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> it'll never happen. ::Cough::
conmcb25> I guess my reaction is what you guys do with CDG is up to you.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Well, we're being on the level with you.
(ZIP)Mo_D passes the peace pipe to his Apolytonian brothers
conmcb25> All we ask is you "snowball" them till the republic deal is done so they dont suspect whats gonna happem
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> oh definitely.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> when the republic deal goes through...
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> we'll ask them for this trade
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> when we get code from you all, really
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> hehe
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> and they'll never finish maps before "D-Day"
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> especially at the speed they're growing.
conmcb25> OK
conmcb25> We need to check and make sur we are ready for DDay that soon
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> It occurs to me this sort of discussion might throw our own trustworthiness with you in doubt
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> What can we do to mitigate that?
(ZIP)Mo_D offers more bananas
conmcb25> Hmmmmmm
Togas>
(ZIP)Mo_D>
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> We're honest, PRAGMATIC folk.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> We made a full deal with you - and we'll word the deal properly with them.
conmcb25> I know
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Though obviously we'll fink. heh
conmcb25> Its back to the we are differnt thing
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ::Nod::
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> As long as you all don't worry about our "different" nature.
(ZIP)Mo_D zips up his Jav Thrower costume
conmcb25> I dont
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> So uh, what do we need to know about this Banana God fella and his volcano?
conmcb25> nd a lot of Apoly dosn't
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> You realize I've *NEVER* seen an eruption before outside of the beta?
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> I was like "WTF, pollution?"
conmcb25> What???????????????
conmcb25> I see them all the time
conmcb25> anyway
(ZIP)Mo_D> hehe
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> MP has no eruptions
conmcb25> ah
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> disallowed due to elimination and OOS
TheDohr-{PAL}> acutally we don't go back on our word in any way... it's just that they'll hear different things than we say... it's called manipulation
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> TheDohr = Togas v2.0.
(ZIP)Mo_D shudders
conmcb25> you make a deal with CDG
conmcb25> But war happens first
conmcb25> I dont see that as a major problem.
conmcb25> Klo, Togas, thoughts?
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ::Muse::
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Oy, question for you - do you know what kind of land CDG has east of them? We're running coastline south... does it bend away or straight to them?
Togas> ... Togas v 2.0 ??
Togas> Just saw that
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> hehe
(ZIP)Mo_D> :P
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Hey man, I remember the PTWISDG, I was *not* sorry to find you not assigned to be my counterdiplomat
Togas> I think it's a good plan to make a deal with CDG and go to war before it's complete
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> I need SLEEP at night
Togas> just make it a long deal
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> :P
conmcb25> We aren't sure
conmcb25> we have not been east
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Not to stare at contracts and wonder how my ass is getting beaten.
conmcb25> Not even a good look at the capitol
TheDohr-{PAL}> actually we are still willing to give CDG all those techs when they give us maps, it's just that they are dead b4 they can do so
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> have you been east of meeting mountain at all?
conmcb25> I think your being up front with us on the deaal says a lot
conmcb25> yes we have a warrior just south of your guy
conmcb25> or there abouts
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Grog, yeah
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> there's coast east of Grog
conmcb25> Yea
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> we can see land across it
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> but only edges
conmcb25> Really?
conmcb25> *con wonders if CDG has spoken with the others?*
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> might be an island, we haven't poked far enough south to be sure
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> we have unexplored land SE of us
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> but we're not sure in what quantity
Togas> Important note: My hope in this alliance is that we don't "handle" each other with diplomats, ambassadors, and other formalities, keeping each other at arm's length. Nor do we need to create lengthy contracts with slippery wording.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> we really doubt the map balancers gave us as much land as that must be if it was one landmass
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Fair enough, T
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL>
Togas> Let's just sit down, chat it up, be straight forward, and get things done
TheDohr-{PAL}> isn't that what we're doing already?
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> but before the alliance we didn't have that reassurance
(ZIP)Mo_D is in favor of that
conmcb25> Agreed
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> and you're a shark with ten mile teeth, I know this.
Togas> That's what we're doing
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> you and Master Zen
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ::Mutter::
TheDohr-{PAL}> I'm supposed to be the diplomat here, and I keep my mouth shut most of the time
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ::wonders about Evil Plans::
conmcb25> actually MZ is not really invovled in this game
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> really? That's too bad. He's a good sort.
conmcb25> he just joined in the last month
Togas> He and Arnelos are heavily involved in the first ISDG
conmcb25> hes too busy with the PtW ISDG
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Okay, let's recap
conmcb25> OK
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> timetable on the war - we'd like to impact in 50 turns.
Togas> :goes back to writing his turn report:
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> You'll get back to us on force figures at that time?
conmcb25> Yes
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Cool.
conmcb25> the best we can figure
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> SoZ's realistic usability, you'll consider?
conmcb25> Yes
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> We'll get an exact number of turns on that road to MM
conmcb25> OK BUT
conmcb25> Can I BUT?
[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]> :-)
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> your butt is your business, suh
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL>
(ZIP)Mo_D> all in favor of "butting" say I
[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]> Aye
(ZIP)Mo_D> :P
conmcb25> Bsed on CDG's location your road will actually be more optimal EAST of meeting mountain
Togas> quick sidenote: I just found silk this turn with our warrior
conmcb25> But you will discover that soon enough
(ZIP)Mo_D> we could fork our road
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> groovy.
(ZIP)Mo_D> don't see it being a problem
conmcb25> Ok continue recap
Togas> question: Where is the "isthmus" that we should not cross?
(ZIP)Mo_D> we don't have a problem with you crossing the isthmus now
(ZIP)Mo_D> since we are nows blood brothers
Togas> ah.
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> It was more a defensive measure
conmcb25> Just dont mess with the barbs Togas
(ZIP)Mo_D> now*
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> The isthumus is 5 wide
(ZIP)Mo_D> however...
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> very dull, no resources, one cow near the top
(ZIP)Mo_D> at this point...
(ZIP)Mo_D> we are interested in populating it
Togas> gotcha
(ZIP)Mo_D> down to Meeting Mtn
TheDohr-{PAL}> actually there are some superb sights, nice sunset, wonderfull wildlife
conmcb25> he he
Togas> the silk is south of the isthumus?
conmcb25> F_P
conmcb25> Recap?
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Silk? What silk?
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> We know nothing of silk here
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> if there's silk south of the isthumus, go for it, have a grand time, get silky underwear for your women
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> you're in the tropics, we're here in the northlands - we need our furs
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Okay, mroe recap
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> we agreed to carefully consult each other on issues of diplomacy with CDG
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> since we're already leaving a fish trail if we're not careful
conmcb25> agreed
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> since we've both been caught in a lie to them once. heh
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ::checks::
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> I think that's everything...
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> we have tech plans, we have warplans, we have eco-plans
conmcb25> Ok and we talked about resources
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> yep
conmcb25> and you know where CDG is basically
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> is there anything else you guys wanna bring up? We're kinda driving the meeting, don't want that to be a problem
conmcb25> *as con checks F_P's agenda*
conmcb25> Lemme check
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> I don't s'pose you guys have enough warriors around to really rumble? hehe
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> we know where one of his 2 warriors are
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> if you can see another one...
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> they've got a naked city or two?
cnmcb25> We wondered about the naked city early
conmcb25> We almost went for there capitol with two warriors
conmcb25> Very close
conmcb25> But went for the tech deal instead
[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]> bet you would have got it
[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]>
conmcb25> But then we were really thinking we were alone with them
[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]> tough decision indeed though
[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]>
conmcb25> shoulda, coulda, woulda
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> no big deal, this way we get two useful techs from the dead body
conmcb25> yes
conmcb25> Ok Grand startegy
conmcb25> Then we can quit
conmcb25> 1st CDG as discussed
conmcb25> Then the other continent
conmcb25> If they dont do the job for us.
conmcb25> Agreed?
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ayep.
[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]> :-)
conmcb25> Ok we can discuss at lenght later
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ::
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> Alright, now we have to go back to our barb tending
conmcb25> But I hope and I think you agree it would be preferable to work a deal with the French
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> lovely harvest this season, lots of ripe barbs to be picked
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> I'd have to consult a vote for certainty
TheDohr-{PAL}> where CDG is considered to be barbs
conmcb25> We as well
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> but I think we'd prefer to see the french stabbing instead of the GWT
conmcb25> ha ha
conmcb25> OK
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> their Enkidus should hold them up until we can get over there
conmcb25> and eventually i want to share experiences I have had with them at MZO
conmcb25> Very honorable bunch
conmcb25> Anyway, Ill shut up now
Togas> please continue to chat. I'll drop in every commercial
Togas> my game is on
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> yeah, okee, we're done
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> G'night folks, my girlfriend is scowling
conmcb25> Good night
(ZIP)Mo_D> later fellas
conmcb25> say hello to Miss Cleo for us
[ICE]Heroic_GS[PAL]> night :-)
conmcb25> Do one of you have a full log of this chat?
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> TheDohr? Got that covered?
TheDohr-{PAL}> yup
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> groovy.
(ZIP)Mo_D> very good
conmcb25> can you emial it to me since I came on late?
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> alright ,done and done, g'night and good chatting with ya. Think we'll be "first elim" in game 2? hehe
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> be-beat
ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> beat first elim in game 2, that is
conmcb25>
conmcb25> TheDohr, can you email me a chat log?
[ZIP]FriedPsital[PAL> ::tips his hat and steps out::
conmcb25> Bye F_P

Last edited by conmcb25 on 12-05-2004 at 19:25

	12-05-2004 08:38									#24
	Suffering from ads?

OK I got part of the VB code cleaned up

Ill finish tomorrow, man is that TEDIOUS.

If anyone else wants to help feel free

Just get rid of the carrot in front of everyones name.

	12-05-2004 11:08									#25
	Support Apolyton

fire up notepad, paste in the post, hit CTRL+H. in the first field, put <. in the second field, out nothing. hit "replace all".

boomshakalaka.Edit by con: Thanks UBER, Ill try that and get these chats squared away today

Edit2 by con: Thanks again Uber it worked like a charm

Last edited by conmcb25 on 12-05-2004 at 19:32

	14-05-2004 08:19									#26
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

New PAL Chat up

They are essentially looking for our advice on how to handle CDG.

Also OCT_X can you look at this mIRC error and give F_P some idea of what to do?

Thats the first step to getting them into our chat room.

quote: PTAGuildmaster: you around? conmcb25: Yep PTAGuildmaster: PAL seeks useful advice. conmcb25: OK PTAGuildmaster: we currently are trying to figure out exactly how to deal with Elucidia and we're kicking around three options PTAGuildmaster: Option 1- The Togas Initiative. PTAGuildmaster: Be nice, make sure that we can never quite fulfill our agreements but do anything we can to be honorable while using every loophole we can duck out on. PTAGuildmaster: I named it that because he's the master of the honorable loophole. conmcb25: he he PTAGuildmaster: and I remember the treaties of PTWISDG. PTAGuildmaster: Why do you think we wanted a straight, unilateral deal now? LOL PTAGuildmaster: hehe PTAGuildmaster: okay PTAGuildmaster: Option 2- the "Lord Phan" method PTAGuildmaster: We threaten them, subtly or perhaps not, pointing to scores, Military advisors, generally beat our chests, threaten them against going north, etc, demand tribute if we can PTAGuildmaster: Idea there is that it will frighten them into your arms, making them a bit more vulnerable to you PTAGuildmaster: more info, etc PTAGuildmaster: might put you on the spot too though PTAGuildmaster: the idea with option 1 is that it's tricky but technically still honorable PTAGuildmaster: Option 3 - the GWT approach PTAGuildmaster: take forever to reply to anything, use vague, uncertain terms, generally act like we have no idea about diplomatic procedures, and try to act as dumb and diplomatically unsophisticated as possible PTAGuildmaster: we're having a rather enthusiastic debate on the topic right now conmcb25: Well Ill just shoot from the hip at the moment PTAGuildmaster: and there's a good deal of advocacy for all three conmcb25: Not a team answer conmcb25: I dont think two would find a lot of favor at Apoly. PTAGuildmaster: hehe conmcb25: Because like you said it would force them into our hands conmcb25: Then why wouldn't we sign an alliance with em PTAGuildmaster: I personally favor two but figured you all woul dbe against it because it would require you to either advertise or backstab conmcb25: They would know something is up. PTAGuildmaster: alright, fair enough conmcb25: One and three leave us much cleaner PTAGuildmaster: I think more of our people are leaning away from 1 because - contrary to the Machiavellian Friedrich - most of them are inclined to avoid the backstab conmcb25: Three would work PTAGuildmaster: ...and our MoFR is leaning away from 3. hehe conmcb25: We could just tell them that you are being a pain in the ass with us as well conmcb25: :-) PTAGuildmaster: he thinks CDG will smell a rat if we take too long PTAGuildmaster: that "dead air" will equate to a threat to them PTAGuildmaster: I think CDG is dumber than that or knows us too poorly to thinkt hat, but he might be right, too conmcb25: well conmcb25: Hmmmmm PTAGuildmaster: although PTAGuildmaster: if you guys metnion that we seem to be diplomatically idiotic PTAGuildmaster: it might make it more believable PTAGuildmaster: "Yeah, they're just dumb MP bastards, leave em alone and they'll leave you alone" PTAGuildmaster: well, if it's alright with you, I'd like to post this lil' chat, and if you can get us some kind of even "ideas and feedback" reply from the masses, that'd be cool PTAGuildmaster: we're not looking for osmething official PTAGuildmaster: we just DO have some inexperience in this realm, and we value the input of our partner. conmcb25: OK conmcb25: We really need to get you guys in mIRC PTAGuildmaster: blegh! PTAGuildmaster: why conmcb25: My guys are probably idling there right now and we could do an impromptu PTAGuildmaster: well, here's what happened when I just tried PTAGuildmaster: - * Connect retry #1 apolyton.net (6667) - -apolyton.net- *** Looking up your hostname... - -apolyton.net- *** Found your hostname, cached - -apolyton.net- *** Checking Ident - * Identd request from 207.44.244.82 * Identd replied: 3286, 6667 : USERID : UNIX : FriedrichP - -apolyton.net- *** Got Ident response - Closing Link: 0.0.0.0 (Invalid username [FriedrichP]) - * Disconnected conmcb25: OK Ill get OCT_X to look at this conmcb25: He is our resident mIRC expert PTAGuildmaster: heh PTAGuildmaster: if we can get me working, we can maybe get the others in too PTAGuildmaster: MIRC is easier to drop notes through PTAGuildmaster: anyhow, thanks for the input - I gotta crash. be in touch? conmcb25: and we have a fair number of guys on dial in believe it or not conmcb25: they dont want to mess with gamespy conmcb25: Fair enough PTAGuildmaster: ? PTAGuildmaster: whazza gamespy have to do with dial in? conmcb25: The dial in guys were *****ing about having to d/l the update when they tried to start it PTAGuildmaster: ah PTAGuildmaster: heh conmcb25: a long proposoition on dial in. conmcb25: anyway get some sleep conmcb25: Ill have OCT_X look at this error PTAGuildmaster: cool, gratzi PTAGuildmaster: later conmcb25: g'night PTAGuildmaster signed off at 10:03:23 PM.

	18-05-2004 06:53									#27
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Session Start (apolyton.net:#c3c_isdg_embassy): Mon May 17 20:52:19 2004
[20:52] *** Now talking in #c3c_isdg_embassy.
*** Topic of #c3c_isdg_embassy: The International Embassy of Apolyton
*** Set by Octavian_X 27230 minutes ago
*** Users on #c3c_isdg_embassy: IdleKruX Friedrich_Psitalon Kloreep @Octavian_X E_T[manifests]
*** End of /NAMES list.
*** Mode for channel #c3c_isdg_embassy is "+tnr"
*** Channel #c3c_isdg_embassy was created at Sun May 16 22:15:03 2004
[20:52] [Friedrich_Psitalon] Can't get here via MIRC, but can via Java, go figure.
[20:52] *** IdleKruX is now known as UberKruX
[20:52] [Octavian_X] strange...
[20:52] [Friedrich_Psitalon] Heya Mr.Krux, long time no see
[20:52] [UberKruX] heil FP.
[20:52] *** Togas (Togas@67.181.169.46) has joined channel #c3c_isdg_embassy
[20:52] *** Mode change "+o Togas" for channel #c3c_isdg_embassy by ChanServ
[20:52] [Octavian_X] Not to worry, since we've got our online population heading in.
[20:52] [Togas] yo
[20:53] [Friedrich_Psitalon] cool.
[20:53] * Friedrich_Psitalon stares around.
[20:53] [Octavian_X] Now, if Don would come in...
[20:53] [Friedrich_Psitalon] It isn't the green I'm comfortable with, but it'll do, I suppose.
[20:53] [Togas] don is getting some food
[20:53] [Togas] he'll be back shortly
[20:53] [Friedrich_Psitalon] Sure wish I could get my MIRC problem resolved.
[20:53] [Kloreep] Maybe it's a new registration gimmick
[20:53] [Kloreep] Pay up and you can get in to poly with it
[20:53] [Octavian_X] I doubt it.
[20:53] [Kloreep] I'm joking
[20:53] [Octavian_X]
[20:54] [Friedrich_Psitalon] So uh, how secure is this?
[20:54] [Friedrich_Psitalon] No chance of anyone else "happening in"?
[20:54] [Octavian_X] Not really.
[20:54] [Togas] we can set a pw if needed
[20:54] [Kloreep] Currently it's open
[20:54] [Togas] but we'll see anyone drop in if they do
[20:54] [Octavian_X] They can be expelled immeadiately, and this channel can be locked.
[20:54] [Kloreep] But a PW will lock anyone out
[20:54] [Friedrich_Psitalon] alright, just thought I'd ask
[20:54] [Friedrich_Psitalon] So, interesting situation we seem to have stumbled on.
[20:54] * Friedrich_Psitalon coughs.
[20:55] [Friedrich_Psitalon] And on my honor it was NOT intended.
[20:55] [Togas] I *think* we've come to an informal decision on your situation.
[20:55] [Friedrich_Psitalon] I used a slightly less diplomatic tongue on the chap who did that.
[20:55] [Friedrich_Psitalon] Back off and call it an accident?
[20:55] [Togas] We're very sure that they can defend the city with backup or with a rushed unit or both
[20:55] [Friedrich_Psitalon] really? ::Muse::
[20:55] [Friedrich_Psitalon] The rushed unit I figured, the backup not so much
[20:55] [Togas] and once they become afraid of PAL, they'll build a lot more mil units than they are now
[20:56] [Togas] it'll make them hyper-scared. More difficult to invade in the future
[20:56] [Friedrich_Psitalon] true, but they'll expand less, which means less production centers for units, no?
[20:56] [Friedrich_Psitalon] I'm playing devil's advocate here - I agree that we should back off
[20:57] *** Donegeal (~donegeal@68.185.191.38) has joined channel #c3c_isdg_embassy
[20:57] [Octavian_X] I'd agree.
[20:57] [Togas] we don't mind the expansion so much. Thus far they're slighting their security and I, personally, would like to continue to make them feel secure.
[20:57] [Octavian_X] A simple apology would seem to be in order.
[20:57] [Friedrich_Psitalon] We may have unfortunately already scared the crap out of them. I surely hope not. :/
[20:57] [Togas] you haven't entered their borders anyhow, so it's not a big situation
[20:58] [Kloreep] Yeah
[20:58] [Octavian_X] True. This could be called a simple exploratory move.
[20:58] [Friedrich_Psitalon] need your judgement call there
[20:58] [Friedrich_Psitalon] how pissed are they about to be?
[20:58] [Togas] if you pull out next turn, not very pissed
[20:58] [Friedrich_Psitalon] that's the side of diplomacy we're not experienced in
[20:58] [Donegeal] Hello F-P
[20:58] [Friedrich_Psitalon] reactions
[20:58] [Togas] we touched their borders at least twice, iirc
[20:59] [Friedrich_Psitalon] heya Don. Pleasetameetcha
[20:59] [Donegeal] yes... and they were not upset... that much.
[20:59] [Donegeal] I was the one who replaced Con as a Consul...
[20:59] [UberKruX] we touched their borders twice in the same turn
[20:59] [Togas]
[20:59] [Donegeal] just so you know who is in chat with you...
[20:59] [Octavian_X] And my guess is that they're in no hurry to make a team they percieve as strong angry.
[21:00] [Friedrich_Psitalon] ::Muse::
[21:00] [Donegeal] What tile is you warrior on?
[21:00] [Friedrich_Psitalon] uh
[21:00] [Friedrich_Psitalon] sec
[21:00] [Donegeal] er... your...
[21:01] [Friedrich_Psitalon] I'm assuming you know the area around Manhattan?
[21:01] [UberKruX] Minnesota.
[21:01] [UberKruX] and yes.
[21:01] [Donegeal] thank you...
[21:01] [Friedrich_Psitalon] Minnesota, right, sorry
[21:01] [Friedrich_Psitalon] we're SW of the cow
[21:01] [Friedrich_Psitalon] SW, S to the city
[21:01] [Friedrich_Psitalon] Minnesota? Weird name for your second town on grassland...
[21:01] [Friedrich_Psitalon] ::scratches his head:: Oh well.
[21:02] [Togas] we can't figure them out either
[21:02] [Friedrich_Psitalon] Our MoI was thinking
[21:02] [Donegeal] OMG...
[21:02] [Friedrich_Psitalon] that if they only have two cities
[21:02] [Friedrich_Psitalon] forcing a poprush would be *really* crippling
[21:02] [Donegeal] You mean you could move onto the cow next turn?
[21:02] [Friedrich_Psitalon] and our MoW/Int folks say they have NOTHING in there
[21:02] [Friedrich_Psitalon] or at best 1 warrior
[21:02] [Friedrich_Psitalon] that's why we're eyeing the situation at all, really
[21:03] [Friedrich_Psitalon] thinking we'd force a poprush
[21:03] [Friedrich_Psitalon] but the diplomatic damage would be significant
[21:03] [Friedrich_Psitalon] nonono
[21:03] [Friedrich_Psitalon] dude, seriously
[21:03] [Friedrich_Psitalon] I'm NOT on the "go" side
[21:03] [Friedrich_Psitalon] just presenting the arguments
[21:03] [Friedrich_Psitalon] I'm much in favor of the 50turn sledgehammer plan
[21:04] [Friedrich_Psitalon] there ARE good points to this move, but diplomatically it makes things a real mess
[21:04] [Togas] We're on board with 50 turns sledge
[21:04] [Friedrich_Psitalon] so I'm just trying to give "the other side" of PAL a fair shake
[21:04] [Friedrich_Psitalon] yeah, we're still waiting on your 50 turn approx figures whenever
[21:05] [Friedrich_Psitalon] We're working on firming ours up
[21:05] [Togas] our sim people are a little slow, it seems
[21:05] [Friedrich_Psitalon] you mean they have LIVES?
[21:05] [Friedrich_Psitalon] rat bastards
[21:05] [Togas] may have to co-op ET to do it
[21:06] * Togas grins at ET
[21:06] [Friedrich_Psitalon] he's busy trying to suck me back into the PTWISDG
[21:06] [Friedrich_Psitalon] :P
[21:06] [Togas] ET lives and breathes PTWISDG
[21:06] * E_T[manifests] Drops the Ton-O-Fluffy-Cat(tm) on Togas
[21:06] [Friedrich_Psitalon] I'm noticing
[21:06] [Friedrich_Psitalon] okay, so we stumble backwards and continue muttering Dunedain's drunken song
[21:06] * Togas nods
[21:06] [Friedrich_Psitalon] fair enough. That was the expected response. Just seemed a very interesting opportunity.
[21:07] [Friedrich_Psitalon] Other thing that jumped up though
[21:07] [Friedrich_Psitalon] if they've only got two cities...
[21:07] [Donegeal] we are guessing that they will have a warrior there next turn.
[21:07] [Friedrich_Psitalon] they CANT be getting code that fast.
[21:07] [Donegeal] or at least I am guessing that.
[21:07] [Friedrich_Psitalon] It seems like there's a real risk of getting Philo co-oped
[21:07] [Friedrich_Psitalon] out from under you by the western continent
[21:07] [Friedrich_Psitalon] that's your biz and all
[21:07] [Togas] we'll chance it.
[21:07] [Friedrich_Psitalon] oookay.
[21:08] [Donegeal] not too likely as they would have had to do Alph first
[21:08] [Friedrich_Psitalon] I just ran the figures on how fast they could get it and all
[21:08] [Friedrich_Psitalon] taking a risk fellas. But you know yer stuff.
[21:08] [Donegeal] plus they know that good old builder poly have alph to start with...
[21:08] [Friedrich_Psitalon] just noticing how fast GWT and SHU are growing.... sure hope they aren't getting along too well
[21:09] [Friedrich_Psitalon] how you suppose their relations are? Given the PTWISDG and all
[21:09] [Togas] we've had people speculate both ways
[21:09] [Octavian_X] I'd think they may be ignoring their own old rivalries, and allying up with the same idea we have.
[21:10] [Friedrich_Psitalon] mm.
[21:10] [Togas] but gwt is a pretty agressive team
[21:10] [Octavian_X] It is a differernt game, after all.
[21:10] [Friedrich_Psitalon] no way to know, really.
[21:10] [Friedrich_Psitalon] any land west of you that might be promising for a sailing trip?
[21:10] [Friedrich_Psitalon] or do you know yet?
[21:11] [Togas] we need to check the north-west a bit more with a curragh
[21:11] [Friedrich_Psitalon] we're not in a position to speculate on ours yet, alas. :/
[21:11] [Togas] it has some potential
[21:11] [Donegeal] nothing I'd put a bet on...
[21:11] [Friedrich_Psitalon] oh! Thanks for the ceremonial by the way
[21:11] [Friedrich_Psitalon] heh
[21:11] [Togas] np
[21:11] [Friedrich_Psitalon] that was unexpected, startled me when I opened the turn
[21:11] [Togas] we figured you guys could really use it
[21:12] [Friedrich_Psitalon] For a split second I thought I was in live chat
[21:12] [Friedrich_Psitalon] I was like "Whoa, uh"
[21:12] [Octavian_X] heh
[21:12] [Friedrich_Psitalon] ::muse::
[21:12] [Friedrich_Psitalon] so you guys are going after Philo now?
[21:12] [Friedrich_Psitalon] or math?
[21:13] [Friedrich_Psitalon] we're chasing down "mounting"
[21:13] [Friedrich_Psitalon] we look forward to MOUNTING horses. YAR!
[21:13] [Friedrich_Psitalon] ::Leer::
[21:13] [Togas]
[21:13] [Togas] For us, it was either math or mysticism, so we went with the obvious choice
[21:13] [Friedrich_Psitalon] heh
[21:14] [Friedrich_Psitalon] should have horses in 5 or 6
[21:14] [Friedrich_Psitalon] you get writing from the scandies yet?
[21:14] [Friedrich_Psitalon] horseback, that is
[21:14] [Donegeal] it doesn't look like they are checking turns to complete things.. so they don't know about our deals
[21:15] [Donegeal] techs I mean.
[21:15] [Togas] toss us hbr when you get it. We could toss you writing when we get it. do you guys need it asap?
[21:15] [Friedrich_Psitalon] yeah, we plan on writing epic novels
[21:15] [Friedrich_Psitalon] :P
[21:16] [Friedrich_Psitalon] I guess not ASAP, but sooner is better than later -we have a few huts about
[21:16] [Friedrich_Psitalon] and we've had really strange luck with hut triggers as far as our freebie tech
[21:16] [Friedrich_Psitalon] got Bronze from our hut on turn 2
[21:16] [Friedrich_Psitalon] ::boggle::
[21:16] [Togas] nice
[21:16] [Friedrich_Psitalon] that flies in the logic of free techs though
[21:16] [Friedrich_Psitalon] not warrior code or ceremonial
[21:16] [Friedrich_Psitalon] bronze
[21:16] [Friedrich_Psitalon] ?
[21:16] [Kloreep] WC is the same cost
[21:17] [Kloreep] And there is a chance you'll get a tech that isn't the least expensive, though it's much less likely than the cheapest tech(s)
[21:17] [Togas] one of my guys just made a good point -- we'll hold off on writing for a bit, so that doesn't cdg checks their diplo screen and go "wtf? Apolyton gave them writing?!"
[21:17] *** OctavianX (octavian_x@coin-as3-06.coin.org) has joined channel #c3c_isdg_embassy
[21:17] [Kloreep] Yep, exactly
[21:17] [Kloreep] I'd say better to wait until you need it for something
[21:17] [Friedrich_Psitalon] hmm.
[21:18] [Friedrich_Psitalon] they don't know what we're researching at the moment
[21:18] [Friedrich_Psitalon] but that's a decent point
[21:18] [Togas] maybe you can make a deal with them .... masonry, math, currency for writing, mapmaking, or the like.
[21:18] [Friedrich_Psitalon] mm.
[21:18] *** Signoff: Octavian_X (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by OctavianX)))
[21:18] *** Signoff by Octavian_X detected.
[21:19] *** OctavianX is now known as Octavian_X
[21:19] *** Signon by Octavian_X (Octavian_X!octavian_x@coin-as3-45.coin.org, Mask: *!*@*) detected
[21:19] *** Mode change "+o Octavian_X" for channel #c3c_isdg_embassy by ChanServ
[21:19] [Friedrich_Psitalon] alright. I may get some people chewing on my ear about us not getting writing right away, but they shouldn't care that much
[21:20] [Friedrich_Psitalon] I'm gonna duck out unless you guys have anything? Girlfriend wants to watch "Kill Bill Vol.1"
[21:20] [UberKruX] quality girl you have there.
[21:20] [Friedrich_Psitalon] yar
[21:20] [Donegeal] does she civ?
[21:20] [Togas] nice
[21:20] [Octavian_X] hehe
[21:20] [Friedrich_Psitalon] There is SOME possibility that they'll be cranky about the writing thing, come to think of it
[21:21] [Friedrich_Psitalon] but I'll see before I say anything
[21:21] [Friedrich_Psitalon] yeah, she civs MP
[21:21] [Friedrich_Psitalon] pretty well, in fact
[21:21] [Togas] very nice
[21:21] [Friedrich_Psitalon] and plays Diablo II and ICewind Dale
[21:21] [Friedrich_Psitalon] also bellydances and brews beer, all true
[21:21] [Togas] !
[21:21] * Friedrich_Psitalon is one seriously lucky dude.
[21:22] [Friedrich_Psitalon] bloody hell
[21:22] [Friedrich_Psitalon] I can't log any of this
[21:22] [Friedrich_Psitalon] ::mutter::
[21:22] [Togas] let your team know that we'll give you guys writing if you really need it, but it's probably better to snow CDG at least for a little while
[21:22] [Friedrich_Psitalon] Javachat can't be copy-pasted
[21:22] [UberKruX] would you like a log emailed to you?
[21:22] [Friedrich_Psitalon] that'd be groovy
[21:22] [Friedrich_Psitalon] alright, anything you guys wanna throw around?
[21:22] [UberKruX] whats the email?
[21:23] [Togas] one more thing:
[21:23] * Friedrich_Psitalon is generally pleased to be working with APolyton.
[21:23] [Friedrich_Psitalon] ptaguildmaster@aol.com
[21:23] [Togas] We were wondering if you guys have any Wonders that you absolutely had to have
[21:23] [UberKruX] i'll fire it off right after you leave
[21:23] [Friedrich_Psitalon] Thought we told you already
[21:23] [Friedrich_Psitalon] We're chasing the Pyramids at the moment
[21:23] [Friedrich_Psitalon] we have no interest in Zeus
[21:24] [Friedrich_Psitalon] and we politely question the wisdom in chasing it
[21:24] [Friedrich_Psitalon] but respect your choice if you wish to.
[21:24] [Togas] hypothetically ... if we were to get a SGL and, say, rush the Pyramids, would that piss you guys off?
[21:24] [Friedrich_Psitalon] ::twitch::
[21:24] [Friedrich_Psitalon] uh.
[21:24] * Friedrich_Psitalon reaches for some Pepto.
[21:24] [Togas] LOL
[21:24] [Friedrich_Psitalon] I can't answer that right away.
[21:24] [Friedrich_Psitalon] I personally would understand.
[21:24] [Friedrich_Psitalon] PAL might get a lil' cranky.
[21:25] [Friedrich_Psitalon] That's our GA trigger, see
[21:25] [Friedrich_Psitalon] But for a serious answer on that, I'd have to talk to the people
[21:26] [Friedrich_Psitalon] Although I'm betting you'd do it either way - I would if I were you
[21:26] [Friedrich_Psitalon] so I'm just going to hope you don't get the SGL. :P
[21:26] [Friedrich_Psitalon] hehe
[21:26] [Togas] I think that if it came down to it, we'd let you guys know before suddenly rushing a wonder you were building
[21:26] [Friedrich_Psitalon] well, as you can see we're not advertising it
[21:26] [Friedrich_Psitalon] but we're prebuilding that way, yes.
[21:27] [Togas] of course
[21:27] [E_T[manifests]] there are other GA triggers...
[21:27] [Friedrich_Psitalon] no single GA triggers except that and the Gardens, which isn't a tech we planned to chase
[21:27] [Togas] however, all things considered, I think we'd avoid that wonder. It's too perfect for your team.
[21:28] [Togas] makes more sense for you to have it.
[21:28] [Friedrich_Psitalon] our expansion rate is also such that we will find the pyramids extremely beneficial
[21:28] [Friedrich_Psitalon] you're going to see a seriously scary score climb soon, fellas.
[21:28] [Friedrich_Psitalon] ::cough::
[21:28] [Togas]
[21:28] [UberKruX] climb?
[21:28] [UberKruX] as in HIGHER?
[21:29] [UberKruX] christ.
[21:29] [Friedrich_Psitalon] ::Muse::
[21:29] [Friedrich_Psitalon] I would expect the current gap to maintain
[21:29] [Friedrich_Psitalon] possibly extend, not sure. I'm no math junkie
[21:29] [Donegeal] that must be one hell of a start.
[21:29] [Friedrich_Psitalon] but you've seen the rate of change of our capital, I'm sure
[21:29] [Friedrich_Psitalon] you can do the math and figure out how fast it's doing what it's doing
[21:29] [E_T[manifests]] [21:24] [UberKruX] climb?
[21:29] [E_T[manifests]] [21:24] [UberKruX] as in HIGHER?
[21:29] [E_T[manifests]] it normally goes that way....
[21:29] [Togas] that thing grows like a weed on steriods.
[21:30] [Friedrich_Psitalon] The freight train is coming, and none shall stand in our way.
[21:30] [Friedrich_Psitalon] PAL/APO, that is.
[21:30] [Donegeal] ...ah... thank you.
[21:30] [Friedrich_Psitalon] no worries
[21:30] [Friedrich_Psitalon] it really does make sense to ally with you all
[21:30] [Friedrich_Psitalon] so our pragmatists and our honorables don't even have to fight it out
[21:31] [Friedrich_Psitalon] (Something I was dreading pre-game)
[21:31] [Friedrich_Psitalon] The ladder community has pragmatists who are fanatic in their ways and honorables who are zealous and then some
[21:31] [Friedrich_Psitalon] ::cringe::
[21:31] [Donegeal] how many active do you have?
[21:31] [Friedrich_Psitalon] Anyhow. I don't leave soon and I'm going to be the star of Kill Bill Vol 3.
[21:31] [Friedrich_Psitalon] uh... ::checks::
[21:32] [Togas]
[21:32] [Togas] np, we have a save to play
[21:32] [Friedrich_Psitalon] damnit, where's that roster thread
[21:32] [Donegeal] is your entire roster active?
[21:32] [Friedrich_Psitalon] heh, I wish
[21:32] [Friedrich_Psitalon] fluctuates
[21:32] [Friedrich_Psitalon] though the events of the last few turns have given rise to a sharp spike
[21:33] [Friedrich_Psitalon] total call it 50
[21:33] [Friedrich_Psitalon] active call it 20
[21:33] [Donegeal] that I think makes you guys one of the larger teams...
[21:33] [Donegeal] anyway.. thats OT...
[21:34] [Friedrich_Psitalon] heh
[21:34] [Donegeal] go enjoy your movie.
[21:34] [Friedrich_Psitalon] well, we're a largely untapped/unrealized community, us MP folk
[21:34] [Friedrich_Psitalon] alright. Pleasure chatting as always, folks.
[21:34] [Donegeal] and your girl....
[21:34] * Friedrich_Psitalon tips his hat.
[21:34] * Friedrich_Psitalon leers.
[21:34] [Friedrich_Psitalon] yar!
[21:34] *** Signoff: Friedrich_Psitalon (Quit: Leaving)
[21:34] *** Donegeal has left #c3c_isdg_embassy
Session Close (#c3c_isdg_embassy): Mon May 17 21:35:13 2004

	22-05-2004 16:09									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Chat with PAL two nights ago:

I guess some of his team thinks we are being less than open, and this is mainly in response to the last chat we had with PAL where Togas took the lead.

quote: conmcb25: OK your dime my friend :-) PTAGuildmaster: heya conmcb25: howdy PTAGuildmaster: busy? conmcb25: Nope conmcb25: all yours PTAGuildmaster: okay, first thing PTAGuildmaster: I've removed myself as the ambassador to APO. conmcb25: OK why did you do that? PTAGuildmaster: because A) I'm too close to you guys as a friend PTAGuildmaster: and B) there is a growing amount of concern on our team about a few issues - one of which being the state of our relations PTAGuildmaster: But there's a segment of our team that thinks we're being set up for a backstab conmcb25: Oh come on F-P, just look at the demographics PTAGuildmaster: and the evidence they're collecting is a bit interesting. PTAGuildmaster: Like how did CDG get Pottery, amigo? conmcb25: That was part of our initial trade deal leading to republic PTAGuildmaster: ah. I see - never mentioned that by us PTAGuildmaster: and are your sim guys *really* taking THAT long to get a 50 turn estimate? conmcb25: I guess it just didn't come up PTAGuildmaster: that's not the APO I remember PTAGuildmaster: On our last chat the feeling was you weren’t being very warm and friendly conmcb25: I did not read the chat carefully conmcb25: I did scan it the other day PTAGuildmaster: me either apparently. LOL conmcb25: Have I been less than "Warm and friendly"? PTAGuildmaster: you've been great PTAGuildmaster: heh conmcb25: Honestly? PTAGuildmaster: sure PTAGuildmaster: they've never *****ed about our chats conmcb25: Jeez too bad one lousy chat screwed that up PTAGuildmaster: I think it was the combo of the writing withhold that was unexpected and the general frustration of not understanding the hold onto CDG mentality PTAGuildmaster: We're practical to a fault, and we understand you being practical and allying with us PTAGuildmaster: It's just that CDG is nothing but a hinderance and a target - to everything, including your own tech plans conmcb25: Look Ill be honest conmcb25: Our MOI has been slow conmcb25: Not entirely his fault conmcb25: Our first guy resigned conmcb25: and the new one is still catching up PTAGuildmaster: yeah, we went through... three? I think PTAGuildmaster: People resigning left and right from offices as you know. conmcb25: But when you are agricultural and pop a settler from a hut you have more "wiggle room”: :-) PTAGuildmaster: heh conmcb25: When we allied with you we were still flushing out the "core plan", and that is taking a lot of time. conmcb25: Kind of tough to share a projection at 50 turns out without a firm core plan. conmcb25: So that’s why it has been slow. conmcb25: Its not that we are hiding anything or planning something behind your back. conmcb25: I mean come on, just look at the stats conmcb25: But we are working on something right now on a 50 turn projection on military might, now that the core plan is pretty much set. PTAGuildmaster: heh conmcb25: if anybody has to worry about something like that its us ;-) PTAGuildmaster: Nah. Like I said, it's a practicality thing above all else with PAL - it's PRACTICAL (not to mention honorable and strategically wise) to line up with the stronger partner - you- and stay that way conmcb25: On the Ambassador switch, I don’t think that is a good idea. PTAGuildmaster: easier to smear CDG, you guys are better players, and backstabs make for problems in the finals conmcb25: *switching subjects* PTAGuildmaster: Machiavelli, eat yer heart out PTAGuildmaster: aha PTAGuildmaster: righto PTAGuildmaster: Well, there was some concern that I was being too soft PTAGuildmaster: although I guess part of it was me getting tired of being the APO meatshield. ;-) conmcb25: You more than anyone on your team understand that we are different. conmcb25: I think it’s safe to say that conmcb25: And I’m worried about what kind of message that will send conmcb25: We are historically slow movers PTAGuildmaster: mmm. PTAGuildmaster: fair enough. conmcb25: Getting Apoly to jump into this alliance full bore, with both barrels loaded was a quantum leap in changing the historic thinking. conmcb25: But not because it wasn't a good idea conmcb25: But because we usually start slow, build trust, and then move on to bigger things conmcb25: And getting the team to change there thinking was not easy PTAGuildmaster: heh. conmcb25: But they have come around conmcb25: I would hate for this change to place us a few steps backwards PTAGuildmaster: alright, that's true enough. PTAGuildmaster: I imagine I can get that reversed. conmcb25: Well IMHO that would be best PTAGuildmaster: So how do you think your team will react to that thread? conmcb25: But I can't tell your team what to do PTAGuildmaster: Honestly, I don't think that captures the "where is APO's sense of intelligent practicality if they're that good?" PTAGuildmaster: that's scattered in various other threads, but the sentiment is pervasive conmcb25: Well a few have pleasently surprised me in the past couple of weeks dealing with PAL> conmcb25: Im not sure about the log. conmcb25: Im hoping maybe it will open a few eyes. PTAGuildmaster: Any chance it'll worsen anything? conmcb25: Possibly conmcb25: My guess is the initial reaction will be "why is PAL over reacting”? conmcb25: It was a nice friendly chat. PTAGuildmaster: mmm. PTAGuildmaster: I think that bit about Apolyton's ideas on trust building is particularly sound conmcb25: Thats the usual path we take conmcb25: Do some tech trades conmcb25: Sign a NAP conmcb25: Start talking PTAGuildmaster: blegh! heh conmcb25: If things move forward positively sign a defensive alliance conmcb25: Then the Offensive stuff. conmcb25: As you can see we skipped all the usual steps this time.;-) PTAGuildmaster: alright conmcb25: I would think that more than anything would send a signal to you guys we mean to sick with you for the duration. PTAGuildmaster: well, there's the bit I was supposed to send you PTAGuildmaster: There's a strong possibility we may want to revisit the Minnesota issue in the near future, fyi. conmcb25: Fair enough PTAGuildmaster: alright, well, time for me to call it a night PTAGuildmaster: ::tips his hat:: conmcb25: OK ill post both PTAGuildmaster: both? conmcb25: Dont forget to tell your guys I have to go serve my country for a couple weeks conmcb25: This and the log you sent conmcb25: via email PTAGuildmaster: ah right PTAGuildmaster: okay. later. conmcb25: Ok have a good night :-) PTAGuildmaster has left the room.

	22-05-2004 16:11									#29
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

And an internal poll about how to treat relations with APOLY, from the PAL forum. F-P was authorized to give us this:

quote: Okay guys, I have to admit I'm a little frustrated at this point, so I'm going to take this the most direct way possible. I have been operating in my talks with Apolyton under a certain set of ideas and principles, but it is becoming increasingly clear to me that these are NOT the principles that other members of this team want. So, I thought it might be worthwhile (and a lot less fuggin headache for me) to find out exactly how the team wants to run this. I tried to construct this poll in such a way that we might have some "general diplomatic guidelines" for our ambassadors to use with all nations, and just a general "status" indicator for future dealings/updates. Bearing in mind we are already allied with Apolyton.... Stance 1: Warm and Friendly. (Previous stance post alliance towards Apolyton before this poll.) Here, we are considerably trusting, and don't sweat the small details. We trust the ideas of the agreement and spirit, rather than the letter of the law. We'll let things slide, offer information readily, ask for information the same way, and try to be as chummy as possible. Stance 2: Reserved and friendly. Here we offer information when asked directly, but don't offer much on our own. We ask - politely - that agreements be followed relatively close to the letter, but don't push the issue unless we have a real need for it. We will let things slide occasionally, but will point them out, and if we have a concern about something, will point it out as soon as politely possible. Stance 3: Guarded but Cooperative. (Roughly our pre-alliance stance with Apolyton.) Here we offer information only when asked, and make a point of keeping quiet when we don't need to say anything. We insist on agreements being followed to the letter for the sake of safety, and immediately bring to the fore any issue not being followed to that degree. We let things slide only when there is good reason, and point out immediately that something has occurred. Stance 4: Neutral and cautious. (Our current stance with Elucidia/CDG, and probably our default stance with any nation to begin with.) We offer only the most extremely limited information, and any direct question which might reveal sensitive information must be checked back with superiors before responding. Any agreements must be absolutely adhered to, and any deviations from agreements must be immediately and completely remedied. Stance 5: Direct and aggressive. (Brinksmanship.) This method is effectively "schoolyard bully." We state what we want and leave dangling "or else" statements other times. We don't offer any information without a good reason to offer it, and generally make a point of making borderline/unreasonable demands. Agreements are not made - tribute (which may have some compensatory factor for the other party) is demanded. Stance 6: Hostile and threatening. (Prelude to war.) Here, we don't give a hoot what the other guy thinks. We have something specific that we want. You can either give it to us, or we'll take it. Maybe we'll give you something back, or maybe we'll just take it and you'll be thankful. Poll locked 24 hours. Obviously, I favor stance one, but I seem to be in the minority in thinking that Apolyton isn't trying to screw us over any more than we're trying to return the favor with our land hijinks. (They ARE going to be quite annoyed one day when they discover we have that significant quantity of land east of us and we settled as far as Meeting Mountain....) I think anything greater than stance 2 would get noticed quickly and would seriously jepoardize the long-term health of the alliance. Stance 4 and greater would jepoardize the alliance in the short term. END FRIEDRICH ******************* Well, I thought we wanted a "warm and friendly" relationship, but it seems to me that Apolyton is operating with a "reserved and friendly" attitude. That's what I get from the chat log. I think it's imperative that we reconcile our stances. I'd like to go "warm", but only if they are inclined to do so as well. END MOTOWN I agree with Mo, we seem to be getting option 2 from APO so we'd better do likewise until they really decide if they trust us or not. So far we have put our part of all deals in place before they have including giving them IW. I guess they just don't have the experience we do of making alliances with real people END IANDC I am in favour of the "warm and friendly" since APO seems currently at the "reserved and friendly" stage, the only way to pull 'm towards "warm and friendly" is to give the proper example. if we do anything else we're more likely to push 'm the other way. as first "warm and friendly" action I propose to tell 'm about the distrust that is still in our team, and give 'm a fair chance to unnerve it. It is hard for them to defend theirselves if they don't know the allegations END THE DOHR *********************************** How about I just send them a duplicate of this entire thread and save myself yet another headache of having a chat with them that I think went well only to be turned into fillet mignon on my return? I thought I was giving a pretty good example of warm and friendly to them, but apparently not. ::boggle:: END FRIEDRICH You WERE giving a good example to them. The problem is that they were not reciprocating, IMO. Go back and read the chat again, bud. END MOTOWN DENNIS Just read the chat of last night. I do not understand why Apo has a problem with us putting a warrior into GDC territory. It would be great if they could explain what exactly their problem is. Are they afraid to be alone with us on one continent after a fast kill? Do they have a mutual protection pact with GDC til the end of the aera? Whatsoever. I would like to understand it. END PLATFUSS They have a technological trade agreement whereby CDG will research Code of Laws while they research filler techs, and then Philosophy, getting Code from CDG first - and then using Philo's freebie to get Republic for both of them (and us.) END FRIEDRICH Yes, thats true. But we could easily jumb in and research CoL for them. So its hard to believe thats the only reason. END PLATFUSS It's reason enough if you're a member of a team that will not break treaties. END FRIEDRICH If this is only about techs I still dont see the problem. They have an agreement to exchange certain techs. Then, for whatever reason, Apo does not need CDG to fulfil CDGs part of the treaty anymore (since it got the tech in an other way, trade, hut etc.). Apo can still fulfil its own part of the deal and give Republic or whatever they agreed on to CDG. They do not declare war, they give them all the techs that were promised. Where do they break the treaty? END PLATFUSS A tech agreement does not bind them to protect CDG militarily. APO is not obligated to respond by allying with CDG, or are they? Would be nice if they had told us how deep they are with CDG. And we should have asked them that exact question last chat with them. I kind of look at alliances like a marriage. We are trying to marry PAL and APO. Problem is that APO is still letting her Ex husband come over all the time, and is not communicating clearly with us. I would like warm and friendly, But I agree with Mo also, Apolyton needs to start communucating better ( like you would expect of an ally or a spouse) and making it clear that they are warm and friendly and not in bed with CDG. Maybe they are friendly, but they are not showing it. If you look at the that chat log, we spend most of the time talking, which seems to be a trend. They talk very little, and when they do they reciprocate very little in specific. And they ignore many of our questions and comments, not even bothering to give an answer. END HEROIC Exactly! As I read the log, I saw Fried being "warm and friendly" as we gave him the mandate to do. I viewed Apolyton as being "cool and distant". I wasn't there and Fried was. Maybe it didn't strike Fried that way as he participated in the chat. Fried, when you step back now, take a deep breath, and reread the log, can you honestly tell us that we're off base? This is NOT meant to be any kind of personal attack on you or your handling of the chat. I think you did what we mandated you to do. I just get the impression that Apolyton is not doing what we believed they agreed to. Chums. Buddies. Not speaking in guarded terms. Pulling up a chair at the bar and having a beer with your buddy. I'm not seeing this from them. END MOTOWN DENNIS You may be right. Perhaps I'm injecting some of my own previously understood camraderie a bit. I'll be a bit more level with them in the future and try not to be in such a good mood in general as I was last night. Heh. END FRIEDRICH Warm & friendly & firm is my stance. Why should we act standoffish just because they are? We need to make our own stance for our own reasons, not just react willy nilly to APO's peceived stance. Show some honour here & act honourable by deciding & standing firm with that decision. Let the others tread the lesser path & we can return from victorious battle with our honour & with a great & feared reputation. END CRUDEDIRK Always have some reservations. For me it looks like APO is trying to trick us into something and in same time trying to give us as little as possible. We should look out and be rdy for somekind of suprise. END MAXFIN Click. (Vote Opened.) END FRIEDRICH I voted for the Chaqui Tutu because there is no "other" category. I am not willing to unconditionally be warm and friendly. I am willing to be warm and friendly but only so long as our efforts are fully reciprocated by APO. This is the "other" category that I would propose. END HEROIC Vote currently stands 5 for option 1, 5 for option 2.

	24-05-2004 09:21									#30
	Put an end to popups!

Sent the following email to F-P

quote: F-P, Your most recent letter to us has caused quite a stir over here in Poly-land, and has alarmed many of our most active members. With Con on vacation and with our Foreign Affairs Minister being mostly AWOL, we haven't had much of a clear policy and we've recently broken into internal dissent on how best change the misperceptions that seem to be occuring. One thing that troubled me, personally, from the message you sent us was your teammates perception that we didn't want you to move your warrior into CDGland because we had a tech agreement with them. Many seemed to think that we were protecting CDG for some mysterious benefit. I recall having the conversation with you and I don't recall either of us falling back on that rationale for keeping your warrior out. My opinion, and the opinion of my top guys, was that the warrior would not do any signifigant damage to CDG, and the incursion would simply serve to make CDG hyperaware of PAL's ruthlessness and force CDG into an early defensive stance. It might also encourage them to drop their very peaceful tech-tree and shift towards more militeristic and defensive techs, like Masonry. Personally, I would like to see PAL fool CDG into staying a peaceful course. I'd like CDG to be as unprepared for the coming invasion as possible. However, that goal seems to have caused some tension and distrust from parties on both sides of our alliance. Therefore, we need to answer the following: 1) What will our diplomatic agenda be during the next 40+ turns? 2) What actions should PAL and Poly take to best ensure that CDG does not fully realize our alliance before it's too late? I propose we meet in chat on Monday night to discuss both of these issues, and I invite members of your team to propose ways that Poly can help defrost the chilly relationship that seems to be perceived. Honestly, if we are acting coldly or distant, we haven't noticed it at all, and we probably need to know what we should be doing differently. Also, regarding our invasion force: Godking is current working on it, but this is a rather large sim, and we've been debating about what sort of combined arms we want to use, so he's doing it with and without swords, and also throwing in cats and horses to make things confusing. We are not likely to be able to answer what our force will be (there's just too many variables) until 20-30 turns before the attack. However, you can be confident that we WILL have a sizeable force and we WILL attack. Our entire Interior planning and production is founded upon it. While Con is away in Europe, I personally will be happy to answer your questions. You may also inquire of anyone you catch in our chatroom. We don't have anything to hide and don't need to funnel you to only a single diplomat Just ask whoever you prefer chatting with. --Togas p.s. oh, and get back to me about chatting on MONDAY NIGHT