15-04-2004 10:07									#61
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That's right. Our deals and promises should only be for the real teams.

	15-04-2004 10:26									#62
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Datajacks

Also remember that Angels can mind control units rather more cheaply--then sell them off to factions with lesser probe ratings, thus making it profitable for both sides.

	15-04-2004 10:27									#63
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Then a capable standing army will be necessary at some time. Less minerals for probe teams then

	15-04-2004 11:17									#64
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu Wow. It does look like a great amount of effort. Love the sheep cartoon.

AWRGH! Busted! A whole new set of Polytoners who know now....

And yes the Gazette was excellent, and well worth the read.... If I ever see Aro again I will do whatever I can to get him here, or where there is a UnO collaboration paper.

And thinking about it a little, I think this faction would be THE perfect one for a Mercenary team. Although instead of military action, how about probe/sabotage/infiltration action? The Angels get some kind of infiltration bonus anyway (can't remember what it is right now), and it's in their interests to promote freedom of information. This could also be a nice way of testing the Mercenary idea out in a different way - the pure hackers' way.

	15-04-2004 11:31									#65
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Any thoughts for the policy of the faction? I'm not entirely keen on the "utterly neutral" idea, I think that lack of some kind of ideology is counterintuitive to the idea of a faction in the first place.
Having lots of different ideologies might be interesting though!

I favour a sort of "meddling in order to undermine tyrants" kind of ethos. Opposition to the extremes of authoritarianism and militarism, and general mocking of anyone with strong beliefs that are not identical to our own.

	15-04-2004 11:31									#66
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quote: Originally posted by foolish_icarus Datajacks

Hey! You didn't get my Cryptonomicon reference!

	15-04-2004 14:35									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Trithemius Any thoughts for the policy of the faction? I'm not entirely keen on the "utterly neutral" idea, I think that lack of some kind of ideology is counterintuitive to the idea of a faction in the first place. Having lots of different ideologies might be interesting though!

How about tacit disapproval of anything anyone else does. A 'dissent is good' sort of ideology. You cooperate only grudginly with everyone.

	15-04-2004 14:36									#68
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt How about tacit disapproval of anything anyone else does. A 'dissent is good' sort of ideology. You cooperate only grudginly with everyone.

I don't know about that, I prefer the gleelfully helping people then having to radically change things when policies alter.

	15-04-2004 14:38									#69
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WIA: the Angels get any tech owned by three infiltrated factions. Kind of like the Planetary Datalinks once you've got some infiltrated factions.

	15-04-2004 14:39									#70
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So infiltrate we simply must

	15-04-2004 14:43									#71
	Some ideas I have been batting about... Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I am going to put up some thought I have been having on the Data Angels, for people to think about and comment on.

DISCLAIMER: These are just my ideas, and should not be taken as any thing other than that.

Discuss please!

Attachment: acdg3-dal_design_document.01.rtf
This has been downloaded 18 time(s).

	15-04-2004 18:49									#72
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Is Hercules around? I would like to know more about organization of the Data Angels, how that possibly would look like.

	15-04-2004 19:46									#73
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quote: And thinking about it a little, I think this faction would be THE perfect one for a Mercenary team. Although instead of military action, how about probe/sabotage/infiltration action? The Angels get some kind of infiltration bonus anyway (can't remember what it is right now), and it's in their interests to promote freedom of information. This could also be a nice way of testing the Mercenary idea out in a different way - the pure hackers' way.

Sure, evolve the mercenary role to fit SMAX better.

How 'bout it WIA? Shall we join and promote this? You KNOW you want to... HongHu's already here, we'ld have half of team Mercenary if we joined too...a good foundation.

Speaking of which, HongHu, you know, you COULD join in the private forum on MZO occasionally...

quote: Any thoughts for the policy of the faction? I'm not entirely keen on the "utterly neutral" idea, I think that lack of some kind of ideology is counterintuitive to the idea of a faction in the first place.

What's so wrong with being neutral? Just make sure you're the high bid if you're going to be needing the services.

quote: That's right. Our deals and promises should only be for the real teams.

that would have to be. NO WAY an AI can comprehend such notions.

quote: I've been thinking this idea. An obvious drawback for SMAX to practise this concept is that you cannot gift bases to another faction. In other words, a faction cannot hire us to take an enemy base for it.

Do I need to lay it out? We attack a city, take it, then leave it undefended so the one hiring us can then do as they please...

	15-04-2004 20:52									#74
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I have read that there is not many people wishing to join Angels. I consider joining this faction, just need a little input what style of play it will be?

	15-04-2004 21:34									#75
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Also read Trithemius ideas posted as an attachment. I can see that working well with the DA's.

These ideas (Trithemius's) would need to be in some way compatible or workable with UnOrthOdOx and MWIA concepts. It wouldn't be a good idea to have players join only to discover their desire for complete neutrality was at odds with a sizeable number who were more open to all ways of succeeeding.

See also Vels guide

quote: you should play this group as a synthesis of Morgan, Lal, and Svensgaard.

Also the DA's forte at probing is going to get them into constant bouts of vendetta as under the MP rules you must declare this when probing other than initial infiltration.

That base transfer ( the mercenary idea) approach also means the 'new owner' will go into vendetta for 1/2 turns in order to take over the base.

As Kody suggests elsewhere for factions: there will be the micro managers and strategists alongside the RP politics and diplomacy players and that's how I see the DA operating. But there would also be structure as the moves become more complex.

I also imagine that in the light of experience of this ACDG team game, the level of politics and diplomacy activity between factions is going to be higher.

	15-04-2004 23:05									#76
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quote: Originally posted by mart7x5 I have read that there is not many people wishing to join Angels. I consider joining this faction, just need a little input what style of play it will be?

mart7x5, please join the Spartans! The Data Angels already have the most members of all factions! IIRC:
FlameFlash
foolish_icarus
GeoModder
Hercules
HongHu
Mellian
MrWhereItsAt
Trithemius
UnOrthOdOx
And it has been told that all previous pirates are thinking of joining the Data Angels too.

	15-04-2004 23:14									#77
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4 of names in that list you put there are former PEACE members.

	15-04-2004 23:14									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Trithemius Hey! You didn't get my Cryptonomicon reference!

sorry, haven't read it.



IMO, the whole point of this faction is fluidity and dynamism, so we might end up doing multiple things in different ways at different times--they are all viable, but we shouldn't lock ourselves in at this point.

	15-04-2004 23:51									#79
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Neither WIA or I have joined yet. blatant propoganda.

	16-04-2004 01:03									#80
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I like the Mercenary - the pure hackers' way idea. Although we do need to think about how we should go around that MP rule that you have to declare vendetta when you perform a probe action other than infiltration.

Can we suggest that the rule to be amended so that any such actions must be informed to the target team and it gets a chance to decide whether they will declare vendetta to us?

	16-04-2004 01:05									#81
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Regarding neutrality and wars, I think we should revenge if a faction does not honor the end of its deal with us. It may be through military action, or other means. We should not strive to win by conqure, not that it is the Data Angels specialty anyway.

We probably need to ask the other teams if they are kind of receptive to this idea also.

	16-04-2004 01:21									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Hercules Also read Trithemius ideas posted as an attachment. I can see that working well with the DA's. These ideas (Trithemius's) would need to be in some way compatible or workable with UnOrthOdOx and MWIA concepts. It wouldn't be a good idea to have players join only to discover their desire for complete neutrality was at odds with a sizeable number who were more open to all ways of succeeeding.

I've read Trithemius's attachment. It added to my understanding of the Data Angels. I do not feel that his idea and the "mercentary" concept conflicts with each other necessarily.

I still have some questions. One is I'm not sure what Trithemius means by new blood from other factions. Are we talking about defectors here?

Second, I'm not sure how should we roleplay the subfactions. I think we may not have enough players to form subfactions and create internal politics. Rather we may need to focus on more coordinations. My view is that each datajack should be responsible for one aspect of the game, where they could form decisions through their own calculation, or information gathering from the members (polls), and then they load their decisions to the system where the head system administrator make the final finetune so every piece fits together.

We still need players with good gaming skills, like buster, kody, minute mirage and others. If we only have roleplayers we will likely not faring well as a mercentary team (if this is what we want). We have to be not too far behind at least in some areas for our services to be sought for.

	16-04-2004 01:40									#83
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I like the overall idea of Data Angels. I would like to join this faction.

	16-04-2004 04:23									#84
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu Can we suggest that the rule to be amended so that any such actions must be informed to the target team and it gets a chance to decide whether they will declare vendetta to us?

So you mean that during an Angel turn a probe action is done, and we warn the 'victim' team of the sort of action and location, and they then decide on the spot if our probing requires a vendetta declaration or not?

That sounds good to me, but our probe actions will need quite some organizing beforehand then.

	16-04-2004 05:51									#85
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IIRC notification of location and type aren't required, just an announcement that the action actually took place

	16-04-2004 08:00									#86
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So when the game gets rolling?

	16-04-2004 08:03									#87
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Originally by Honghu.

quote: We still need players with good gaming skills, like buster, kody, minute mirage and others.

From what I 've seen Honghu you are an able player ( OK apart from that fatal mishap), Shucks you are away ahead of me in our joint MP games.

	16-04-2004 11:18									#88
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* GeoModder is curious.

Mishap?

	16-04-2004 12:51									#89
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx What's so wrong with being neutral? Just make sure you're the high bid if you're going to be needing the services.

There is a difference between neutrality and between having no ideology. I personally am not really keen on the whole "mercenary" idea myself, to be honest.

	16-04-2004 12:56									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Hercules That base transfer ( the mercenary idea) approach also means the 'new owner' will go into vendetta for 1/2 turns in order to take over the base.

We could just sell captured units and intelligence information, no need for us to get involved in the nitty-gritty of actually taking bases for people (except for ourselves ).