16-04-2004 13:03									#91
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu I've read Trithemius's attachment. It added to my understanding of the Data Angels. I do not feel that his idea and the "mercentary" concept conflicts with each other necessarily.

Indeed! One of the sub-faction ideas I mentioned talks about using Data Angel skills for the production of cash. Seems right in line with the mercenary ideal; my only worry is that mercenary means "actually getting into fights" which I think is pretty much out of the question for the Data Angels, really.

quote: I still have some questions. One is I'm not sure what Trithemius means by new blood from other factions. Are we talking about defectors here?

This is simply a way of explaining where the Data Angels came from in the first place; I totally discourage defectors from other teams.

quote: Second, I'm not sure how should we roleplay the subfactions. I think we may not have enough players to form subfactions and create internal politics. Rather we may need to focus on more coordinations. My view is that each datajack should be responsible for one aspect of the game, where they could form decisions through their own calculation, or information gathering from the members (polls), and then they load their decisions to the system where the head system administrator make the final finetune so every piece fits together.

Initially, each actual player could represent the head of a sub-faction, as more players join (and they seem too) they can join as other members of a sub-faction. Sub-factions are also meant to be fairly fluid - think of them as political parties in a multiparty system.

quote: We still need players with good gaming skills, like buster, kody, minute mirage and others. If we only have roleplayers we will likely not faring well as a mercentary team (if this is what we want). We have to be not too far behind at least in some areas for our services to be sought for.

This is not what I want, at least. I think we will need some friends and fast or else we will be squashed as pesky pests extremely rapidly.

	16-04-2004 13:07									#92
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quote: Originally posted by foolish_icarus sorry, haven't read it.

You should, its great. Neal Stephenson's new book (which is sort of a prequel to it...) is great too.

quote: IMO, the whole point of this faction is fluidity and dynamism, so we might end up doing multiple things in different ways at different times--they are all viable, but we shouldn't lock ourselves in at this point.

Certainly, that was what I was hoping for with the sub-factions idea. I am happy to trade some efficiency for a bit more fun...

	16-04-2004 19:04									#93
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Herc, as we established this game, though... this isn't MP, it's a Team-DG which means that that rule most definately needs to be reconsidered.

	16-04-2004 19:19									#94
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I agree. We need to carefully define that rule regarding probe actions especially because the Data Angel team is likely to be a team in this coming game.

I suggest the process of probe actions should be like this:
When a probe action is conducted and the conductor receives a dialogue asking whether he wants to declare vedetta against the targetting party, he must then notify the targetting party that this probe action is in fact discovered, and the targetting party gets to decide whether they want to declare vendetta. If the probe action initiator does not receive a dialogue (means if it is a SP game the probe action suceeds without being detect) then the probing party is not required to notify the targetting party.

	16-04-2004 19:34									#95
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Doesn't this in practice means that the turn is freezed (and needs to stay open) untill the targeted party answers? AFAIK if a message popup happens after a discovered probe team action you can't (temporary) dismiss it like is possible with ingame diplomaty

	16-04-2004 19:37									#96
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Well you could choose no to vendetta to close that window. Afterall if it is an SP game, it will be in the targeted party's turn when a vendetta is announced. Or is it actually in the probing factions turn? If it is the latter then you need to choose vendetta to close the window I suppose.

	16-04-2004 19:42									#97
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Or else a rule set can be agreed upon that the targeted party has the right to declare vendetta when it learns of the action in it's turn. The trustworthy diplomatic thingie is only important for AI's anyway.

Probe action is announced (with choice of vendetta of ignore) in the offender's turn, and if SP game style is choose, we have the problem again of using the game editor to cheat.

	16-04-2004 19:55									#98
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No I did not mean that we should choose SP style. I only meant that the MP result should mirror what would happen in an SP game. The MP bug if I understand correctly is that when a probe action is conducted and disclosed, the target faction does not get notification, instead, it is the conducting faction gets the notification and choice of whether vendetta is declared. It is certainly unfair to the target faction since the probing faction will naturally not choose the vendentta option.

	16-04-2004 19:59									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Hercules Originally by Honghu. From what I 've seen Honghu you are an able player ( OK apart from that fatal mishap), Shucks you are away ahead of me in our joint MP games.

Thanks for your complements DJ Herc. I should really still be considered as a noob though, as I only heard about SMAC about one year ago and have never completed even one transcend SP game. Have never touched DA before either. I'm sure I'll work with you and others and try to find the best strategy for our little team though.

	16-04-2004 20:00									#100
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Didn't read your previous post closely enough, sorry.

But still, is in present DG a rule that a probed faction can choose to stop the 'forced vendetta' and thereby chooses to ignore he probing? I suppose that the trustworthiness still gets lower for the probed faction since it was 'forced' to declare vendetta first.

	16-04-2004 20:07									#101
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I think the current rule is that whenever a probe action other than infiltration is conducted, the conducting faction must notify the target faction and declare vendetta.

What I'm trying to find is a way to soften this a little, so the Data Angels do not get punished more than it should in the only area that it may excel.

In other words, it is more likely if I understand correctly that DA's probe is not discovered and it may succeed in framing another faction. The current rule effectively disabled this ability. That's why I propose if the vendetta window is not opened by the game, the probing faction should not be obliged to notify the target team.

	16-04-2004 20:19									#102
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu We still need players with good gaming skills

How good is 'good' gaming skills?

	16-04-2004 20:23									#103
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I don't know. We need every one. Every new player will bring in new perspectives and perhaps new techniques. Of course you could call somebody a good player if he has been succeeding in multiple PBEMs and always win transcend SP games. But I know others who hasn't been involved in too many games and still are considered good players simply because he has shown himself to be good in the rare occassions that he allows himself to be involved.

	16-04-2004 20:23									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Dansz How good is 'good' gaming skills?

Dont ask.

But Angels are not in shortage, Gaians are

EDIT: HongHu, if I have no PBEM experience, but always win Transcend SP games, what am I? Mediocre?

	16-04-2004 20:24									#105
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As in winning on Transcend?

	16-04-2004 20:29									#106
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I'd say you both are pretty good players obstructor and Geo, and you have shown your excellent ability in this current late stage team game too. Although I should say that PBEMs do present a unique opportunity for a higher challenge because human opponents are considered much more sophisticated than the AIs.

	16-04-2004 20:32									#107
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That is just false rep, Geo is good . Haven`t I already issued you a medal Geo? Maniac wears his proudly.

	16-04-2004 20:41									#108
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Glad to have you in my pbem then Geo. Be aware that you'll be facing some tough opponents though, if they put a decent amount of effort into it.

	16-04-2004 20:44									#109
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Sub-factions? Doesn't that start getting a bit complex? Moreover, that would require a sizeable number of DA members over the whole game to manage even two sub-factions - something I hardly think we can count on by splitting those few active posters here over 4 teams to begin with.

I really would suggest that no-one lets their enthusiasm run away from what might be feasible for the whole game, unless you really think that such a thing could be supported given normal mebership and activity drop-off.

	16-04-2004 20:56									#110
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That's exactly what I'm thinking too. I think we could though think about the subfaction idea just as different emphasis from different player, and let it happen naturally. We don't need to set up a subfaction office or four different newspapers and such, since we would certainly lack the resouces to do so. But people who is responsible for different aspect of the decisions could certainly maintain a focus on different sub ideology.

	16-04-2004 21:17									#111
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu Glad to have you in my pbem then Geo. Be aware that you'll be facing some tough opponents though, if they put a decent amount of effort into it.

$

Nah, I'm just an adequate tactician, gamewise. These last few months I learned a lot more about the quirks in SMAC then when I was busy with SP. My only advantage is that I quickly grasp the potential of these ingame bugs and use them, even with the limits composed by the MP rules.

Obstructor: The medal of Peace, you mean? Nice pun, in more ways then you can imagine...

	16-04-2004 21:20									#112
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder My only advantage is that I quickly grasp the potential of these ingame bugs and use them, even with the limits composed by the MP rules.

Would you care to list those bugs out in our pbem thread so we can discuss which should be allowed?

	16-04-2004 21:27									#113
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu But people who is responsible for different aspect of the decisions could certainly maintain a focus on different sub ideology.

Don't know, a player covering a certain gov post should automatically embrace a certain subfaction ideology?

And for the bug list:
It's only the bugs already covered in numerous articles and rulesets. The only one not covered yet is the attack bonus when a Command Center is scrapped with an inbase unit attacking.

	17-04-2004 00:31									#114
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That bug only happened every time in this one game... it'd need to be tested in at least two others to be viable as a bug, IMHO. The random number thingy could treat it differently in the next game, after all.

	17-04-2004 00:38									#115
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Random number thingy?

	17-04-2004 00:42									#116
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The random number generator... you know, how computers don't really do their numbers 'randomly' and such?

That thingy in the game, when you do something in a different order you sometimes get different results.

	17-04-2004 00:47									#117
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As far as I understood this event, it only worked when the CC was scrapped just before the counter attack. And it didn't when CC was not scrapped.

But this random number thingy can depend on which computer you use as well, IMO. If battle orders are tested, outcome is always different when the turnplayer executes them (in details, I mean, not in general outcome).

	17-04-2004 00:49									#118
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* FlameFlash nods.

Which means that it's not a definate bug, just something nice that might happen. Googlie never tested it with scrapping off anything else, but then he couldn't... there'd need to be a good deal of testing IMHO before this could be deemed a bug.

	17-04-2004 00:53									#119
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Well, as Googlie stated during the time in our forum, it could have been a deliberate feature of the designers as well.

Only too bad you guys did have so many reloads at that time. That made the whole thing a bit too suspicious.

	17-04-2004 01:03									#120
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Just re-read Roze's profile at Firaxis' website. Thought I'd copy it here for people who is not so familiar with her.

quote: Although not a true anarchist, she gains a great deal of satisfaction from causing chaos and observing the aftermath. Her followers consist of a motley collection of hackers, free-thinkers, and drop-outs, whose creativity and talents are welcomed and utilized. Roze holds few ideological scruples, and so can get along with virtually anyone willing to put up with her behavior. Should she incur an enmity, however, she possesses the capability to efficiently and ruthlessly smash the foundations of an information economy.