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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:35
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quote:
Yes, well they aren't exactly bringing down their best are they? |
Some very good players are missing through injury (Wilkinson, Smith, Rowntree, Moody) – and some very good players are missing because Clive has lost the plot (Healey, Goode). He is bringing Chris Jones (played off the park by Neil Back last weekend) and Joe Worseley (played off the park by everyone since November) though so everything is all right (in Clive’s head) 
Then again Finbar has been accusing us of being third best in the NH for a while now – even he can’t now accept Henry’s attempt this week to make the ABs underdogs? 
Can even Henry mess up the chances of that pool of talent at home against a weak England side? Well actually…if anyone can he can. 
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The question is, will they now have what they lacked in the World Cup - a plan B? And perhaps the most important question - will Henry start Mehrtens? |
Good point - Henry loves structure. Plan A will have every player knowing the plays to the 10th phase (so can he risk playing Carlos?) but whether he will have a plan B – the Lions and Wales evidence suggest not.
I think England’s best chance has to be muscling it up front. We will still be fielding an extremely strong pack, particularly if he plays Hill-Dally-Corry in the back row, and NZ have looked attackable there. The same is true for Australia with them picking a prop with just one season of S12 under his belt – they need to exploit his inexperience if they can.
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They will be interesting contests. I hope they're televised here! |
Fingers crossed – Sky is carrying them here so the Murdoch empire has hold of it somewhere.
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Shortly before or after you do? |
That would be telling. You noted I did not say he would be wrong.
No, seriously, it is going to be a tough tour. Let us hope it produces the same five year improvement the 98 shambles did.
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I think it's a test of those players whom, I believe, J**** bonded and lifted beyond their God-given capabilities. |
Well yes…and no. Our forwards are very good regardless. He may have galvanised them but they remain a comparative match ability wise for anything in the world. It’s all about whether Dally can bond a ‘team spirit’ across the 22 in the way Jonno did. Thus far he has been found wanting.
Interesting to see you talk of crap set pieces – an avenue of hope perhaps…
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
and some very good players are missing because Clive has lost the plot (Healey) |
Typo!
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Then again Finbar has been accusing us of being third best in the NH for a while now – even he can’t now accept Henry’s attempt this week to make the ABs underdogs? |
J'accuse? No fear. It's fact! Look at the table after the 6 Nations! 
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Good point - Henry loves structure. Plan A will have every player knowing the plays to the 10th phase (so can he risk playing Carlos?) but whether he will have a plan B – the Lions and Wales evidence suggest not. |
Yes, the whole Carlos/coach nexus is an interesting one. I say again, Mehrtens did well when I saw him in the trial match. He seems to be fitter than he was, putting himself into the game more often, making the occasional linebreak. And their World Cup problem was, apart from lacking a Plan B, their Plan A didn't work against anyone who get into their faces and stayed there.
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I think England’s best chance has to be muscling it up front. |
Frankly, I think it's your only chance.
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Well yes…and no. Our forwards are very good regardless. He may have galvanised them but they remain a comparative match ability wise for anything in the world. It’s all about whether Dally can bond a ‘team spirit’ across the 22 in the way Jonno did. Thus far he has been found wanting. |
J**** aside, I'm not sure they're as strong - read capable - as they were in November, but we shall see. And The Nose will never engender the spirit that J**** did. Never ever. A capable, barging #8, a year or so past his best, IMHO.
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Interesting to see you talk of crap set pieces – an avenue of hope perhaps… |
Well, they were crap. Hookers couldn't find jumpers, and scrums were shoving all over the place.
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:35
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Not a typo at all. I understand Austin has also already signed to be Public Relations Manager for Wallbies-Lions 2013.
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J'accuse? No fear. It's fact! Look at the table after the 6 Nations! |
A harsh and cold hard fact that leaves us with the frightening conclusion that NZ and Australia are ranked 4th and 5th in the World! 
Or do you deny England are ranked ahead of both in the IRB rankings?
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And their World Cup problem was, apart from lacking a Plan B, their Plan A didn't work against anyone who get into their faces and stayed there. |
And whatever qualities he may lack Mouth does have the ability to switch gameplans – even when that meant hiding at fullback and booming the ball up field?
Apparently his selection fro AB duty has terminated his deal with us – lucky escape or tough luck for us?
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Frankly, I think it's your only chance. |
I’d like your take on the fly half, Charlie Hodgson. Been plagued by injury but very good IMO. Needless to say other than him our tried and tested backline is as good as those of, um, Wales!
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A capable, barging #8, a year or so past his best, IMHO. |
I agree. Never the same since his crucian ligament went. Number 8 is a tough position. Corry has become a blindside these days. Jones plays there but does not impress. Probably Balders (or Judas as we now call him) who has moved to *spit* Glaws is the best young number 8 in the country. But he was kept out of our starting XV by two lads who can switch from 6 to 8 more readily – and that seems to be the way modern rugger has gone?
‘Capable’ is a better word I think – one I am more likely to agree with. Let me run it down position by position. Woodman – penalty leaking machine still. Thommo – world cup hangover lasted through the season as did the pie baggage. White – actually one of the changes that will help as has been playing better than Vickery all season. Shaw and Grewcock for Jonno and Kay – not bad replacements by any means and should hang in with anything thrown at them on this tour. Shaw in particularly is immense and strong in both line out and scrum and carries well – he has been core to Wasps success.
But the back row worries me. Hill at openside? No cannot agree there but it is inevitable I think. And the blindside-8 combo? Back-Dally-Hill started the RWC final. If he plays Hill-Dally-Jones/Worsely we will get creamed. If he plays Hill-Dally-Corry that’s a very physical backline indeed and no one will have an easy time against it. The big problem is the ongoing absence of Moody (and incidentally at 25 there is a real chance he will never play again – recurrent fracture problems with the foot). Moody has the speed of a Chris Jones, the power of a Corry and the fearlessness of a Backy. He is the little blond bullet that hurried Rogers in to the clearance kick that produced the last line out if you recall.
If I had known Scotland were on I wouldn't have watched anyway. I'm waiting to see them against top ranked oppo.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
Not a typo at all. I understand Austin has also already signed to be Public Relations Manager for Wallbies-Lions 2013. |
Guaranteeing the first ever loss-making Lions tour. 
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A harsh and cold hard fact that leaves us with the frightening conclusion that NZ and Australia are ranked 4th and 5th in the World!
Or do you deny England are ranked ahead of both in the IRB rankings? |
Ah yes, our old friend the rankings. Meaningless things. Anyway, let's see how things look after your SH tour. That will put things in perspective.
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And whatever qualities he may lack Mouth does have the ability to switch gameplans – even when that meant hiding at fullback and booming the ball up field? |
True. But, as I say, he's involving himself in the game more.
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I’d like your take on the fly half, Charlie Hodgson. Been plagued by injury but very good IMO. |
Well, if Larkham plays up to his S12 form, it will be an interesting test for him.
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I agree. Never the same since his crucian ligament went. Number 8 is a tough position ... But he was kept out of our starting XV by two lads who can switch from 6 to 8 more readily – and that seems to be the way modern rugger has gone? |
Yes, the role of the #8 in modern rugby is one of the more interesting questions (or even dilemmas). These days, the ideal needs to be just about Superman. It's always been the position on the rugby field that has most fascinated me.
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Thommo – world cup hangover lasted through the season as did the pie baggage. |
He might be the best available for you, but I don't think he's much more than average.
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Shaw and Grewcock for Jonno and Kay – not bad replacements by any means and should hang in with anything thrown at them on this tour. Shaw in particularly is immense and strong in both line out and scrum and carries well – he has been core to Wasps success. |
I haven't seen enough of them to be entirely sure - when has that stopped me before? - but I think this is where the standard has really slipped. Of course, it's up to the ABs and us to exploit that, which is an entirely different matter.
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But the back row worries me. Hill at openside? No cannot agree there but it is inevitable I think. And the blindside-8 combo? Back-Dally-Hill started the RWC final. If he plays Hill-Dally-Jones/Worsely we will get creamed. If he plays Hill-Dally-Corry that’s a very physical backline indeed and no one will have an easy time against it. The big problem is the ongoing absence of Moody (and incidentally at 25 there is a real chance he will never play again – recurrent fracture problems with the foot). Moody has the speed of a Chris Jones, the power of a Corry and the fearlessness of a Backy. He is the little blond bullet that hurried Rogers in to the clearance kick that produced the last line out if you recall. |
Sad about Moody if that's the case. Our back row is yet again much debated because it's connected to our lineout problems - play Smith and Waugh as breakaways and our lineout options are reduced to the immensely predictable. The usual possibilities are being tossed around - Smith to #8, one of the young locks to blindside and the lineout. They need to make a decision sooner or later because you don't turn into a good blindside overnight.
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If I had known Scotland were on I wouldn't have watched anyway. I'm waiting to see them against top ranked oppo. |
I'm very annoyed that I've missed both the ABs' trial and the Samoa-Scotland match! And I don't blame myself for not checking the programme guide! 
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:35
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A weekend without any live or televised rugby available to me – I have withdrawal symptoms!
Even Austin could not kill the cash cow that is the Lions Finbar. Dallaglio possibly could.
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Anyway, let's see how things look after your SH tour. That will put things in perspective. |
Faced with such confidence I can only hope we beat the odds and surprise you.
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True. But, as I say, he's involving himself in the game more. |
I can’t in all honesty wish him well – not least because this weekend we face the AB backlash. To me mouth is the same as VD is to you – talented player but no diplomatic skills. And that’s the kind version.
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Well, if Larkham plays up to his S12 form, it will be an interesting test for him. |
I would not claim he is a match for Larkham at his best – but then I personally have not seen Larkham like that since about 2000. Hodgson can live with the Larkham we saw in the RWC – particularly the one who tackles players without the ball and get cut to ribbons for it.
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These days, the ideal needs to be just about Superman |
And in his own mind Dally probably is.
Has Lyons made that shirt his own for this series?
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He might be the best available for you, but I don't think he's much more than average. |
I wouldn’t disagree. However with Keith Wood retired I think Thommo is as good as any hooker in the world. You have pointed out the lack of quality in the position after all.
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Of course, it's up to the ABs and us to exploit that, which is an entirely different matter. |
Quite.
Yes it is a lower quality combination than Johnson-Kay – but it is more than a match for what it is facing in a direct comparison. It’s a shame Clive didn’t have the courage to take Deacon down south – a Deacon-Shaw combo would have excited me more.
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play Smith and Waugh as breakaways and our lineout options are reduced to the immensely predictable |
I feel this would work well against us never the less – maybe less so in the tri-nations?
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Definitely a seat-warmer until someone like Rod Kafer becomes available. |
Kafer is locked into Sarries for a while. But they sack all their coaches eventually.
Two bits of news I see this morning – Ireland’s tour to South Africa is under threat because of a possible Boks player strike.
And Wales centre Iestyn Harris, lured from League at great expense around the same time Robinson moved, apparently wishes to move back by the end of the summer. Shame.
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Andydog
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London
Jan 2001
time: 05:35
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Just dropped in to say hi before the England NZ match.  My new job and other time commitments have kept me from this thread, but after a quick scan of the above posts I see that Havak is already talking down his team's chances.
I think Henry has picked the strongest side available to us right now, and I see that Clive has said he is also fielding his strongest team, with Wasps, Bath and Northampton providing the bulk of his 22. As they were the first three in the Zurich Premiership i think it’s fair to say there are a lot of form players in there.
Areas England may be able to exploit:
An inexperienced Kiwi number 8. About this time last year, Rodney So’oialo was being talked off in some quarters as the solution to New Zealand’s eightman problem. Unfortunately he was out-muscled, out-thought and out-played by Dallaglio in last year's June game and Mose Tuiali'i or Rush will be in a similar position to Rodney this time round. Same outcome?
Front row: I'm sure White will have an impact against the relatively green All Black front row, and if Woodman can get his act together (and Thompson doesn’t screw it up) knock ons may be costly. Flatman could also replace Woodman in the second test if his injury problems clear up by then and he would probably be a stronger scrummaging option at loosehead as well.
Service to our backs: "His" passing was awful in the trial and if I were Woodward, I would drum it into Matt Dawson’s and Hill’s heads that they can have a huge input into going some way towards nullifying the dangerous Kiwi backs by ruining the service they get. "He" has a bit of a temper on him as well, so winding him up would be a good idea.
With new combinations in the AB front row, second row and loose forwards, could cohesion be a little lacking early on? Last year Ma’a Nonu, So’oialo and Ali Williams were all seem as good options but being honest that turned out not to be the case. Realistically, England are pretty unlikely to get a consistent edge over the ABs in the backs but one of our great strengths recently has been the amount of time the squad has spent together and their familiarity with each other’s strengths and weaknesses.
Anyway, go the Blacks, a nice warm up game for the Tri-Nations.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
A weekend without any live or televised rugby available to me – I have withdrawal symptoms! |
Me too! I even watched the Sydney club match that is telecast by the ABC on Saturday arvos.
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I can’t in all honesty wish him well – not least because this weekend we face the AB backlash. To me mouth is the same as VD is to you – talented player but no diplomatic skills. And that’s the kind version. |
At least the hair on Mehrtens' head is his own. Oh, and when did I call VD talented?
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I would not claim he is a match for Larkham at his best – but then I personally have not seen Larkham like that since about 2000. Hodgson can live with the Larkham we saw in the RWC – particularly the one who tackles players without the ball and get cut to ribbons for it. |
He was getting back to that old form in the S12. But then, it was S12.
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Has Lyons made that shirt his own for this series? |
Mmmm. Hard to know. The #8 position may be part of the shuffle to fit in another lineout option. I'd like to see them persist with him. One of his faults, as a respected local coach pointed out recently, is that he takes the ball up strongly, but the ball tends to die in the tackle too often. He doesn't offload enough.
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I wouldn’t disagree. However with Keith Wood retired I think Thommo is as good as any hooker in the world. You have pointed out the lack of quality in the position after all. |
Yes indeed. Where have the good hookers gone?
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I feel this would work well against us never the less – maybe less so in the tri-nations? |
I think you're right, the combo works better against some teams. On song, they're serial pests.
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Two bits of news I see this morning – Ireland’s tour to South Africa is under threat because of a possible Boks player strike. |
Saw that. They'd better make up their minds. Ireland are already there.
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And Wales centre Iestyn Harris, lured from League at great expense around the same time Robinson moved, apparently wishes to move back by the end of the summer. Shame. |
I've seen a bit of him for Wales. Seems to have some talent. I saw him come off the bench in one game and play very well.
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