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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:35
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Now we know the truth. Tamerlin only watches the first minute of the matches. |
I wonder if he caught the last minute yesterday?
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And you'd probably prefer your llama p*ss! |
I have eaten there – it’s very good. Wine is wine – but a decent pint of llama p*** is ambrosia. 
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They should be strung up, those hunting types. |
For many thinks – monumental arrogance, blocking the queens highway on a whim – and excessive inbreeding. There is probably more.
I have to confess that I found the S12 final very enjoyable. Although I agree with Finbar that we watched a game of Sevens – and it was a game where both defences were simply shocking – a total contrast in fact to the European finals this weekend where defence was king. At 25 minutes into the game I really thought we were watching the death of Kiwi rugby. It was a remarkable fight back – but the entire Crusaders squad still need their arse kicking for not turning up on time. 
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His one-handed steal from the Crusaders' lock in the lineout, turning an apparently safe Crusaders' lineout win from their own throw into a turnover, had to be seen to be believed |
Was that Thorn or jack he stole from then?
Andrew will probably play him on the wing next season. If he plays lock he will come up against the likes of Jonno, Grewcock, Shaw, Kay and Deacon on a weekly basis – it will be a far more consistent test of his ability in the second row than S12 offered him.
Do you think anyone has told him how many games there are in our season by the way?
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The list of culprits apparently includes Bill Young, Jeremy Paul and Stirling Mortlock. I gather George Gregan wasn't part of the sacking gang. |
Yes Paul was reported her last week as wanting to move. I have to admit the situation is strange – an S12 winning coach sacked – your Rugby is getting like English soccer for it’s bizarre hirings and firings. 
Giffin might get a berth with Worcester or another struggling outfit – no top team wants a lock with a crooked neck who has declared himself ready to retire. Roff on the other hand might see a real bidding war. The best news for Oxford is both guys would qualify for the varsity match!!
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With Samo and Bartholomeusz already going, there are going to be some gaps to fill next season. |
There will be openings at Toulouse next season – fullback almost certainly.
The French aristocrats of the game gambled hugely this season to retain the crown – their wage bill is estimated at being between 4.5 and 5 million sterling equivalent this year! 
Had Montferand won against Quins (and only a last move of the game try prevented that!) Tigers would have been in Europe automatically. As it stands we have to play Sale (who as I say lost their semi to Glaws, who subsequently qualified anyway when Wasps won yesterday)
We have played Sale three times this year – and they beat us three times (no team has ever done that to us before - it is a measure of how serious our early season troubles were). All before the big upheaval and Deano going of course - since when we have not lost a game. The scuttlebutt is the boys want revenge big time.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
Wine is wine – but a decent pint of llama p*** is ambrosia. |
quote:
I have to confess that I found the S12 final very enjoyable. Although I agree with Finbar that we watched a game of Sevens – and it was a game where both defences were simply shocking – a total contrast in fact to the European finals this weekend where defence was king. At 25 minutes into the game I really thought we were watching the death of Kiwi rugby. It was a remarkable fight back – but the entire Crusaders squad still need their arse kicking for not turning up on time. |
I don't think I've seen a more powerful, destructive first twenty five minutes. I've seen powerful, destructive first ten minutes, but it just went on and on. That's pretty much the way the Brumbies have played all year - ferocious attack, let defence look after itself. Although Saturday night was a fairly extreme example. As Eddie said this morning, bagging both defences, it bore absolutely no resemblance to Test rugby. Pity Rathbone had his quietest game for the season, you didn't get to see him in operation. But Mark Gerard - the big winger who scored 3 tries - is a good Wallaby chance this season and someone for the long term future. Very talented 21 year old. Yet another Waratahs stuff up. They signed him straight from school at 17 years old and completely neglected him. He got fed up with lack of opportunities and took himself off to Canberra. Another of Nucifora's great pieces of grooming.
And you really have to question Deans' choice to (a) start with Mehtrens on the bench; and (b) leave him there as long as he did. As soon as he appeared, he turned them around.
So I wonder how Ben Blair felt on the flight home?
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Was that Thorn or jack he stole from then? |
I don't know, but he - whomever it was - should be very embarrassed. A one-handed steal. Samo must have monstrous hands.
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Andrew will probably play him on the wing next season. If he plays lock he will come up against the likes of Jonno, Grewcock, Shaw, Kay and Deacon on a weekly basis – it will be a far more consistent test of his ability in the second row than S12 offered him. |
Yes, he's incredibly raw as a lock. I don't know that he has the real speed to play wing at a high level. He has incredible speed and mobility for his size but not the sort of high speed a winger needs. He might even make a fairly frightening flanker.
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Do you think anyone has told him how many games there are in our season by the way? |
I doubt it. I don't even know why he's going. Well, I do. He was offered a lot of money, more than he'd ever dreamed of, and he has a young family. I think he might tire of the grind.
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Yes Paul was reported her last week as wanting to move. I have to admit the situation is strange – an S12 winning coach sacked – your Rugby is getting like English soccer for it’s bizarre hirings and firings. |
Only at the Brumbies. Player power. Nucifora's behaviour under appalling circumstances has been all class. And the work he has done bringing on the young players - Gerard, Chisolm, Henjak, etc - proves he can coach. Apparently he's had a couple of minor offers from Japan and Italy. I think he'll probably end up back in Queensland. Jeff Miller is yet to prove he can coach at the Reds. And pretty p*ss poor from Jeremy Paul, too, if he does leave. Demand the sacking of the coach, then leave.
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Giffin might get a berth with Worcester or another struggling outfit – no top team wants a lock with a crooked neck who has declared himself ready to retire. Roff on the other hand might see a real bidding war. The best news for Oxford is both guys would qualify for the varsity match!! |
I wonder whether Joe could fit in studies around full-time rugby over there. He managed it here because he played so much less week-in, week-out rugby. And he's still only 28 or 29. His game on Saturday night was one of his best for a very long time.
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There will be openings at Toulouse next season – fullback almost certainly. |
Not to mention the single gap in the supporter ranks.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
S12 is being increasingly criticised for this isn’t it? |
I think more people are recognising the reality. It took them long enough. S12 was never designed to be Test rugby. It was designed for a purpose - for marketing, to take rugby to the great unwashed and, hopefully, convert them; and to provide an intermediate step for players between club and Test rugby. S12's whole design - bonus points, et al - means it will always be what it is: a try festival. The downside comes when it leads (a) to bad habits; and (b) people, including players, to equate it with Test rugby. But one thing it certainly has done is raise the rugby profile here, which is a damn fine thing.
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Another huge fast Aussie winger off the production line – it’s amazing how they keep turning up. I’ll see Rathbone soon enough – he has declared himself for the Wallabies I believe? |
He has. It's why he knocked back the Boks when they came to try to charm him recently. A lot of experts have declared him too. He's very talented. Trouble is, as ever, we have a plethora of talented backs. I won't bother detailing the converse.
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Out of the wilderness it now looks like the Mouth may yet be back in an AB starting XV? Henry will have been impressed with the structure he gave to Canterbury. |
Bound to have been. Deans has started him on the bench for most of the season. When he was fit. He showed his class every time he came on. This season he has also, strangely, involved himself more than he ever has, taking the ball up, not fleeing to full back as much as he used to. I can see Henry playing him in front of Carlos.
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Actually thinking it through Falcons lost both Mark Andrews and Garath Archer this season to retirement (Archer is a year older than Giffin but also crocked). Maybe Andrew really is looking to play him at Lock. That will be fun for me next season then – Lantern jaw versus Bear Fists. |
He's not going to get the space he enjoys in S12, but his sheer unpredictability will make him a handful wherever he plays. And he's very, very strong. It will be interesting to see what happens. A one-handed steal from J**** would be fun to see. But see further down in this post.
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Career ending moves for the man – try to push him towards Queensland as I would like to see the Reds do something (anything?) |
I'd be surprised if he doesn't end up there in some capacity. He's a Queenslander.
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As for Jeremy Paul – never rated him as a player myself but it doesn’t speak highly of his personal qualities either to agitate then leave – just as you say. |
He's never taken the big, next step up. And I think he's been incredibly p*ssed off by playing second fiddle to Brendan Canon. Canon isn't the greatest hooker in rugby history, but he's wholehearted, where Paul can go missing.
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Methinks he will receive an offer too tempting to refuse. Frankly any of the London clubs would be accessible to him from Oxford – and the west country clubs too. Hmm – Sarries or Glaws I wonder? |
Or he might drop down a level. He's serious about his studies. At 28 or 29, he's way too young to give it away completely. OTOH, as I said once before, rugby has never been his whole life.
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I suspect he will need time – much like I did after the losses to Ulster and Stade Francais this year. |
 So we're once more in line for months of denial and self-delusion? 
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I see Eddie has entered the Samo question. If you sign for an S12 franchise you have to be available for the Wallabies too right? So Samo is possibly contracted to Australia this calendar year and might not be released to honour the Falcons contract he has already signed - or to pursue his apparently voiced preference of Fiji/The Islanders. Could get messy? |
Yes, you have to be eligible to play for Australia in order to play S12, but that doesn't necessarily mean you have to play for Australia. Samo would only have been contracted to the Brumbies, not the ARU, and I expect that contract will have expired or is about to expire. He couldn't sign with Newcastle otherwise. So, by being eligible, he has fulfilled his S12 contract. Which isn't to say that he has to play for the Wallabies.
That legal stuff aside, I've just read the report and it does look to be getting messy.
1. Samo has said he's prepared to make himself available for the Wallaby squad before he leaves. Meaning he prefers the Wallabies to Fiji.
2. It sounds like Fiji are going to try to claim him. He played under-age for Fiji, but he's now qualified for Australia. So, if he doesn't want to play for Fiji, it appears Fiji will miss out. There was some astonishment here when Fiji didn't pick him for the World Cup. Perhaps their loss now.
3. But he has signed a contract with Newcastle. So says his manager. The Wallaby hierarchy have been down to talk to him. Ostensibly to ask whether his allegiance is to the Wallabies or Fiji, but, in reality, to persuade him to stay, I suspect. His manager, while saying he has signed with Newcastle, also seems to be worrying that the signature has compromised his chances with the Wallabies. Well, durrrr. Reading between the lines, I wonder if both Samo and his manager are having second thoughts about Newcastle - they signed before they realised the position into which Samo had played himself. In other words, they didn't expect to be threatening a spot with the Wallabies, and now they suddenly are.
Very, very interesting. Oh well, Chris Latham can always brief them on the finer points of breaking a signed contract with a NH club.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by finbar
Bound to have been. Deans has started him on the bench for most of the season. When he was fit. He showed his class every time he came on. This season he has also, strangely, involved himself more than he ever has, taking the ball up, not fleeing to full back as much as he used to. I can see Henry playing him in front of Carlos. |
Yes, I could see that too. I don't even know why he was left out of the ABs in the first place. IIRC it was Mitchell wanting to build the AB game around Carlos after the success of the Blues last year that left Mehrtens ou tin the cold.
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:35
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And another bit of news - Clive has had to name a very inexperienced side for the Barbarians match this weekend. He cannot pick any players from Bath, Wasps, Tigers and Sale because all are involved in finals on Saturday.
It's a young raw team (with too much Glaws) and could have a rough ride against Randell's boys.
*edit*
And the predictions it would get messy bear fruit quickly.
Excuse me whilst I sob for poor poor Eddie.
Eddie Jones: “The lure of the pound and the various sorts of tax schemes they have in place in England always makes it hard to keep players," he added.
"That is the problem we face all the time. To match the market value of the players in Europe is very difficult.”
The ARU's offer to Samo does not match Newcastle's financial package, but Eddie hopes the prospect of playing for Australia will persuade him to stay in the country.
And on the contract:
Eddie: "If he is not legally bound to Newcastle, we will continue negotiations to try and get him signed up in Australia. We want him to play for Australia and he has indicated he wants to play for the Wallabies."
Samo: Asked whether he had signed a letter of intent or a full contract with Newcastle, said: "Yeah, letter of intent. I don't know how binding it is. I am pretty happy at the moment but I can't say anything about it. I would like to stay for one more year or two, but I don't know what's going to happen. We'll just have to wait and see."
Rob Andrew: “Radike's agreement to join us is binding, and we look forward to seeing him at Kingston Park for next season. Whichever avenue Radike wishes to go down in pursuing his international career is a purely personal decision, to which the club does not intend having any input. Whether he chooses Fiji or Australia is up to him. At no stage has there been any indication from either the player or his representatives that he does not intend to honour his agreement with Newcastle.”
So at the very least the lad has been rather silly I would say. He should never have signed a contract until he was absolutely sure he wanted to move. And Jolly good luck to his lawyer if he intends to argue the letter of intent point – I think Latham killed that particular loophole.
It’s very unlikely that Falcons will try to force an unwilling player to join them – but as I said Rob Andrew is likely to take this very personally. Giving your word still means something in our setup – a throwback to the amateur days if you like. It’s likely Samo may be sued for breach of contract if he doesn’t join.
On a wider note how will Australia retain any fringe players at all if a UK club contract can earn more than a Wallaby deal? The French clubs will smell blood and start to hoover up the Aussie fringe!
Last edited by Havak on 25-05-2004 at 15:17
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
And another bit of news - Clive has had to name a very inexperienced side for the Barbarians match this weekend. He cannot pick any players from Bath, Wasps, Tigers and Sale because all are involved in finals on Saturday.
It's a young raw team (with too much Glaws) and could have a rough ride against Randell's boys. |
And with Owen Finegan running around with something to prove to Eddie.
quote:
Excuse me whilst I sob for poor poor Eddie.
Eddie Jones: “The lure of the pound and the various sorts of tax schemes they have in place in England always makes it hard to keep players," he added.
"That is the problem we face all the time. To match the market value of the players in Europe is very difficult.” |
It's the same problem the Boks face, with their problems compounded by the buggered rand and poisonous internal Bok politics. But I recall it being said at some stage that the rivers of gold were drying up in the NH. Mmmm. That was before les grenouilles opened their purses, overcame the plethora of escaping moths, and started buying anything on two legs.
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Eddie: "If he is not legally bound to Newcastle, we will continue negotiations to try and get him signed up in Australia. We want him to play for Australia and he has indicated he wants to play for the Wallabies." |
Fair enough.
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Samo: Asked whether he had signed a letter of intent or a full contract with Newcastle, said: "Yeah, letter of intent. I don't know how binding it is. I am pretty happy at the moment but I can't say anything about it. I would like to stay for one more year or two, but I don't know what's going to happen. We'll just have to wait and see."
Rob Andrew: “Radike's agreement to join us is binding, and we look forward to seeing him at Kingston Park for next season. Whichever avenue Radike wishes to go down in pursuing his international career is a purely personal decision, to which the club does not intend having any input. Whether he chooses Fiji or Australia is up to him. At no stage has there been any indication from either the player or his representatives that he does not intend to honour his agreement with Newcastle.”
So at the very least the lad has been rather silly I would say. He should never have signed a contract until he was absolutely sure he wanted to move. And Jolly good luck to his lawyer if he intends to argue the letter of intent point – I think Latham killed that particular loophole. |
Yes, I pointed to the different versions last night. The manager was saying it was a signed contract. I agree with you - he has signed (whatever it is) in haste. To my mind, the manager's at fault. Unless the deal was done months ago, before Samo started producing the goods, it was clear that the player had a future here. Managers are paid to read these situations, and, as a matter of course, delay decisions until everything is crystal clear. As I said above, I've never heard of the manager, I don't know how experienced he is.
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On a wider note how will Australia retain any fringe players at all if a UK club contract can earn more than a Wallaby deal? The French clubs will smell blood and start to hoover up the Aussie fringe! |
France and England have been doing it for years. There's nothing we can do to stop it. BTW, how much would the average UK contract be worth? I won't bother asking about the French sums on offer. The zeros on the end would test the supposedly limitless infinity.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
I’m no fan of Newcastle as you well know – it bothers me not at all that they lose a player - but no fault is attached to them here that I can see. |
I don't think Newcastle are at fault in any way. Except, perhaps, if they didn't check out the contract situation.
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It’s the ARU and it business practices at fault coupled with an extremely naieve agent and player. Falcons signed Samo in good faith and I suspect have excellent grounds under UK law to sue both player and the ARU (if the ARU are directly preventing the player honouring the contract). |
Why are the ARU at fault for enforcing a legal contract?
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I find it intriguing that for all the faults UK rugby has this simply could not have happened here. Contracts have to be ‘fair and reasonable’ under UK law and ‘restraint of trade’ is illegal under European law – the Aussie contracts boof out on both criteria surely (keeping a player handcuffed four months after the domestic season ends)? |
There's nothing unfair or unreasonable about the ARU contract. The contract doesn't apply only to the domestic season. Here, there is, arguably, more rugby played outside the domestic season than within it. Tours to the NH? Cripes, if a player were only contracted for our domestic season, it would be a six months contract.
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So the contract was certainly signed under UK law – the player can certainly be pursued under UK law – not sure how they would get the ARU (though I wish them every success for amusement value alone). |
They probably have a case against Samo and/or the agent. Depending on what exactly was signed.
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I guess Tigers are just lucky we have always dealt with Kiwis and Aussies that have not been contracted to the associated Union and it’s lawyers when they joined us. |
You've obviously dealt with players out of contract.
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Or perhaps you yourself think Samo and the ARU are coming out of this smelling of roses? |
Trouble is, we don't know exactly what was signed. That aside, Samo and his manager were naieve. The ARU is perfectly within its legal rights. Why have contracts otherwise?
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In other news Burke has been linked with Worcester. More trouble here perhaps as they will want him by the end of July – and Eddie may not like that if he is still needed for ‘cover’? |
It's a squad of 27, and I honestly don't know why he's in there. We have plenty of cover for the places he's covering - full back, outside centre, goal kicking. Worcester? Must be the money they had earmarked for Larkham? (Another contractual case in point. Larkham was out of contract with everyone - Brumbies and ARU. He was available for signing)
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Finny is with the barbarians? My that will be interesting. He has enough red rage problems when facing men – what is he going to do to a team of boys? |
I'm sure Owen will enjoy himself immensely. I don't know whether you saw his prank with the ref in the S12 final. The Brumbies earned a penalty within kicking distance. Owen pointed to the side line and told the ref the Brumbies would have a shot. It took the ref and Joe Roff - the kicker - twenty seconds to work out the joke.
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I saw figures for the average premiership salary last year that were around £45K IIRC. We can do a basic sum to estimate it – a salary cap of 2.2 million and a squad of 40 senior players gives an average expected salary of £55K. Of course the salaries are not even across the squad but it gives you an idea. I’m not sure what the tax breaks Eddie spoke of are but I do not doubt they exist. The other thing is of course that a foreign signing can certainly expect a salary boost from ‘promotional’ work – this is the grey area that sometimes cast doubts on our Salary caps. |
Yes, I think we actually did this equation once before. S12 rates and yours - without "promotional work" - roughly equate. It's the "promotional work" that obviously makes it so lucrative. Your money is very attractive to a lot of our players who are either fringe or lower-level S12 earners, and a lot of them are over there. The only "promotional work" here is strictly for Wallabies. In fact, I've often wondered how much of the "promotional work" is part of their contracts and how much is extra income.
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If we pick a big French side – and say the wage bill is 4.5 million with again 40 Pros on the books you get an average of £112K. Given that they still get Promotional income on top of that you can see how the ARU might have no chance – and UK clubs would struggle – to retain players being courted unless they have strong reasons to stay. |
That's right. Interestingly, thus far, the only Australian players the big-spending French have lured have been fringe players and/or superannuation seekers. The genuine lure of Wallaby (or England) jerseys will always overcome the pots of gold, I suspect. Samo excepted.
On an unrelated matter. I bought the DVD of Brian Wilson's "Pet Sounds" concert(s) at the Royal Albert Hall. Stunning stuff. The band he put together is quite extraordinary. He toured out here with the same band last year. I saw the early promotion for the tour and made a mental note to get tickets. I didn't hear another word until I read the review of the concert! One of my heroes, Brian Wilson. Genius.
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Caligastia
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I'm off to London tomorrow for the weekend, so you won't hear from me till Tuesday or so. Hopefully this thread will last till then.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by finbar
Goodoh. Report back on Owen Finegan monstering the England In Nappies team, please. |
Will do. I take it the match isn't available over there?
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23-05-2004 17:50
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