19-04-2004 06:03									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo They shot an Iranian diplomat in the head. A high ranking diplomat too...

Who is "they"?

	19-04-2004 06:06									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Who is "they"?

Iraqi Insurgents. I think it was the Shi'a insurgents, but I would have to look into that.

	19-04-2004 06:13									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo but I would have to look into that.

With your excellent sources I'm sure you'll get to the bottom of it.

	19-04-2004 06:17									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse With your excellent sources I'm sure you'll get to the bottom of it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3628985.stm

They don't know why or who did it.

	19-04-2004 06:26									#125
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That was my point

	19-04-2004 07:33									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse That was my point

I'm suspecting people related with the current uprising.

	19-04-2004 08:15									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Not necessarily - if the christian fundamentalist forces were replaced with a UN force made up predominantly of troops from muslim countries and commanded by say a Pakistani or Egyptian that could go a long way to easing tensions.

One thing that the recent history of the ME has shown is that once there aren't Westerners or Jews to be fought, Muslims will happily fight amongst themselves.

Iraq's problem is that is a patchwork of virulent sectarianism that was clumsily glued together by the Brits and was since strongarmed together by a brutal tyrant. There's no real Iraq to keep together--the notion is a complete fraud. Without a near-totalitarian adminstration to literally force the country together, it will dissolve into anarchic civil war and fragment.

So no, there's not a shred of a chance the UN will be effective at maintaining order. Unfortunately, the U.S. is barely capable of it now, and I believe it's going to get far worse as resentment grows, which it does every day.

	19-04-2004 08:16									#128
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I say we unite Iran and Iraq and recreate Persia.

	19-04-2004 08:18									#129
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I think the more realistic answer is to consider that maybe Iraq should be divided into two, perhaps three new states.

	19-04-2004 08:19									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I think the more realistic answer is to consider that maybe Iraq should be divided into two, perhaps three new states.

I think there should be a Kurdistan carved out of just Iraq. Of course the Turks won't want it. And Iranians won't either. And the Syrians won't like that either....

	19-04-2004 08:19									#131
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I dunno, division seems to have worked for the Soviet Union countries, (except Chechnya), but I don't know how much Turkey would enjoy a Kurdistan on it's border.

	19-04-2004 08:26									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I dunno, division seems to have worked for the Soviet Union countries, (except Chechnya), but I don't know how much Turkey would enjoy a Kurdistan on it's border.

Of course they wouldn't. Since the administration promised Turkey there'd be no independent Kurdistan, that route seems closed for now. I was thinking for the two to be a Sunni state and a Shi'ite state.

	19-04-2004 08:27									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Of course they wouldn't. Since the administration promised Turkey there'd be no independent Kurdistan, that route seems closed for now. I was thinking for the two to be a Sunni state and a Shi'ite state.

I don't think the Kurds would get along with the Sunnis to be in one state.

	19-04-2004 08:30									#134
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Nor would they get along with them in Iraq as it stands now. As it is, the Kurds have a large degree of autonomy in the north. I don't think that will change fundamentally whatever structure is reached.

	19-04-2004 08:46									#135
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2 states and a UN mandated autonomous state in the north overseen by the US ??

	19-04-2004 08:47									#136
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I think Turkey should take one for the team and allow their Kurdish regions to join an independent Kurdistan. Iran should be offered a straight swap: southern Iraq for its Kurdish regions, and the Sunni rump should be either given the option to stand alone, or folded into Jordan.

Percentage chance for this senario? Oh, about 0.03.

	19-04-2004 23:42									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf Have they given up the idea/hope that the UN will take command of the troops?

Yes.

	19-04-2004 23:44									#138
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Juan Cole suggests that the early pullout is because Spanish troops are based around Najaf, and incidentally, that's where it's all going to go down in a short while.

	19-04-2004 23:54									#139
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO When a democracy is established in Iraq and the truth begins to reach these kids, then and only then, will terrorism begin to subside.

Are you that naive?

	20-04-2004 04:17									#140
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Congratulations on the Spain government for having the courage of its convictions.

What the blowhard morons on this thread obviously haven't grasped is that Zapatero's party as ALWAYS against having troops in Iraq - now they have been elected to power they can do something about it...

And another thing - at the same time as pulling out of Iraq, Spain has pledged to increase its presence in Afghanistan so it is patently not giving in to Al-Qaeda in the slightest like certain (well, the usual suspects actually ) ****tards have posted...

It is merely rationalising its troop deployments in line with the will of its people. That is what is called democracy - though apparently many people on this site have absolutely no clue what one of those is...

Big ****ing deal! Spanish troops will basically transfer to Afghanistan and I'm sure a commensurate number of US troops will be heading in the other direction.

The only real 'damage' (for the chickenhawk neo-cons) is that politically it makes them look yet more stupid during a time when they have been looking stupefyingly stupid for the last year or so...

That IMO can only be a GOOD thing!

	20-04-2004 04:17									#141
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tee hee

	20-04-2004 05:24									#142
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Are you that naive?

Let's hope not!

	20-04-2004 07:19									#143
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quote: Originally posted by joncha Uh, Uncle Sparky, it's not the 1980s anymore. South Korea has a functional democracy, despite US efforts to the contrary. With the Uri party victory in last week's elections, South Korea just might pull their troops out as well... that is, after they sort out the whole impeachment/attempted right-wing coup thing.

I agree with everything you say... and it only took 30 years to become a democracy... and 20 more years, there are still US troups on the ground !

I guess the Bushite's grandchildren will be willing to protect American democratic interests while stationed in Iraq !

	20-04-2004 07:20									#144
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Congratulations on the Spain government for having the courage of its convictions. What the blowhard morons on this thread obviously haven't grasped is that Zapatero's party as ALWAYS against having troops in Iraq - now they have been elected to power they can do something about it... And another thing - at the same time as pulling out of Iraq, Spain has pledged to increase its presence in Afghanistan so it is patently not giving in to Al-Qaeda in the slightest like certain (well, the usual suspects actually ) ****tards have posted... It is merely rationalising its troop deployments in line with the will of its people. That is what is called democracy - though apparently many people on this site have absolutely no clue what one of those is... Big ****ing deal! Spanish troops will basically transfer to Afghanistan and I'm sure a commensurate number of US troops will be heading in the other direction. The only real 'damage' (for the chickenhawk neo-cons) is that politically it makes them look yet more stupid during a time when they have been looking stupefyingly stupid for the last year or so... That IMO can only be a GOOD thing!

What a big pile of ****. I mean do you give a damn about the power vaccuum that would happen when troops pull out? Zapatero is an idiot who deserves whatever diplomatic punishment that comes his way.

I think this guy should be reinstated as Iraqi King:

http://www.iraqinews.com/people_bin_ali.shtml

"Al-Sharif is a cousin of the late King Faisal II, who was deposed and assassinated in 1958. Al-Sharif's father is Sharif Al-Hussein bin Ali (whose father was Prince of Mecca until 1908 and uncle to King Faisal I), and his mother is Princess Badia, daughter of King Ali bin Hussein I and aunt of the late King Faisal II. Al-Sharif's family fled Iraq in 1958 when he was two. He grew up in Lebanon and the UK, where he built up a successful career in investment banking. Wealthy, immaculately dressed, Al-Sharif embodies the look of the modern monarch. He promises to remain above factional disputes and political maneuvering if he becomes the King of Iraq."

A parliamentary monarchy would be the best way out of this entire situation.

	20-04-2004 08:55									#145
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So we should install a Westernized despot into power over a Muslim "country" manufactured by the imperialist British and given over to his family in the early 20th century sans any consideration of the ethnic, cultural and religious divisions of the region? And you'd think this would be the best way to help the tensions in Iraq?

, dear lord, please never enter a career in international relations. You probably look upon the Shah as still being a pretty keen idea.

	20-04-2004 08:57									#146
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Well Boris...I do have to say that I would rather have the Shah than the Ayatollah. It is a poor choice you present however.

	20-04-2004 09:04									#147
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If we hadn't had the Shah, we probably wouldn't have the Ayatollah. People greatly underestimate the impact that resentment over the U.S.'s installation and propping of a hated dictator had in sweeping the Ayatollahs into power.

So since we've been burned going that route before, I'm amazed anyone (except Fez) would suggest it again. He's like the hamster that keeps pushing the electrified button instead of the one that delivers the food.

	20-04-2004 09:41									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov So we should install a Westernized despot into power over a Muslim "country" manufactured by the imperialist British and given over to his family in the early 20th century sans any consideration of the ethnic, cultural and religious divisions of the region? And you'd think this would be the best way to help the tensions in Iraq? , dear lord, please never enter a career in international relations. You probably look upon the Shah as still being a pretty keen idea.

**** off. Iraq was better under Faisal then it ever was under Hussein or any other guy they can think of.

	20-04-2004 09:56									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I think the more realistic answer is to consider that maybe Iraq should be divided into two, perhaps three new states.

Won't happen. The last thing the Gulf Arabs want is a large Shia state right next to them, one that will be the natural ally of Iran.

As for Spain leaving Iraq as an Al Qaeda recruiting poster - it is peanuts compared to the "US Imperialists invaded Iraq on false pretences to install another corrupt government" and the "See, I told you Bush was on the side of Israel in a war against Muslims" slogans.

	20-04-2004 13:32									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo What a big pile of ****. I mean do you give a damn about the power vaccuum that would happen when troops pull out? Zapatero is an idiot who deserves whatever diplomatic punishment that comes his way.

Power vacuum my arse!

Spanish troops make up less than 1% of the total deployment in Iraq, and its not like they are just quitting and leaving overnight. You really do come up with the biggest pile of drivel going - what scares me is the prospect that you actually believe what you post.

Surely no one can be that stupid can they?

quote: I think this guy should be reinstated as Iraqi King: http://www.iraqinews.com/people_bin_ali.shtml "Al-Sharif is a cousin of the late King Faisal II, who was deposed and assassinated in 1958. Al-Sharif's father is Sharif Al-Hussein bin Ali (whose father was Prince of Mecca until 1908 and uncle to King Faisal I), and his mother is Princess Badia, daughter of King Ali bin Hussein I and aunt of the late King Faisal II. Al-Sharif's family fled Iraq in 1958 when he was two. He grew up in Lebanon and the UK, where he built up a successful career in investment banking. Wealthy, immaculately dressed, Al-Sharif embodies the look of the modern monarch. He promises to remain above factional disputes and political maneuvering if he becomes the King of Iraq." A parliamentary monarchy would be the best way out of this entire situation.

Yep, you definitely need your head examined!