06-05-2004 04:54									#421
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0...2117545,00.html The Flames

So whining from a Detroit player constitutes proof? The Flames don't play a trap game, they're big on forechecking instead and still play a very aggressive game. They don't ever sit on a lead, and they don't ever quit when behind.

Teams that play the trap don't wipe out Colorado 7-1...

This whole trap bullshit no doubt stems from Quinn, who CONSTANTLY attributes losses to other teams as them playing a trap game. It's a stupid, stupid pathetic excuse.

Fact it, the Leafs lost (and rightly so), and people have probably had far more fun watching the Flames series' than the leafs, with the exception of Leafs fans.

	06-05-2004 04:56									#422
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Anyway, I hate to say this, but I hope Philly wins solely to get Roenick a cup. I hate the Flyers (especially that **** Clarke and chickenshit Brashear) but I can't bring myself to say a bad word about JR - he's just great.

Seriously - What the f* do you know about Roenick, besides whatever flavour of the week globe and mail NHL editorial told you?

the poser line is over there. yeah, the one where you wear hockey Jersey X while nervously awaiting that Canadian green card a-ok

	06-05-2004 04:56									#423
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PHILLIES!!!!1!

	06-05-2004 04:56									#424
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Hey, I never said that. I just don't like the clutch and grab. And the Leafs weren't above doing that either. In fact they played a successful 1-2-2 trap against the Flyers in the earlier games - I remember Hitchcock complaining about it.

And what were you watching? Didn't you see Roberts cross check Primeau about six times in a row (knocking him down twice). The refs sure didn't.

	06-05-2004 04:57									#425
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon They were doing the same. The Flames were playing an aggressive smothering game against Detroit and it worked. But two goals in two games is not much fun.

Well, when you have REAL goalies like CuJo and Kipper, you have low-scoring games. Just because Belfour sucks, doesn't make a 7-2 game a fun game to watch. You should adjust your fun-metric for hockey game.

	06-05-2004 04:57									#426
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quote: Originally posted by Asher So whining from a Detroit player constitutes proof? The Flames don't play a trap game, they're big on forechecking instead and still play a very aggressive game. They don't ever sit on a lead, and they don't ever quit when behind.

the Flames do indeed play a trap game - but more than anything else a physical one. Did you see the Detroit bench in game 6? they were absolutely SPENT at that point - and we're talking Detroit, of all

	06-05-2004 04:58									#427
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon And what were you watching? Didn't you see Roberts cross check Primeau about six times in a row (knocking him down twice). The refs sure didn't.

yeah, Roberts is apparently a CALGARY man, b*tch. do some research on that, btw

	06-05-2004 04:59									#428
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quote: Originally posted by Asher So whining from a Detroit player constitutes proof?

Even if I had Sutter paint it on his forehead you wouldn't believe it.

Most teams trap to some degree. Are you telling me that Calgary didn't in the last game? I saw them doing it (overhead shot five players clogging up the neutral zone).

	06-05-2004 05:01									#429
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka the Flames do indeed play a trap game - but more than anything else a physical one. Did you see the Detroit bench in game 6? they were absolutely SPENT at that point - and we're talking Detroit, of all

It's not a trap game, a trap game is where that is your strategy -- like New Jersey (the most boring team to watch, ever).

Neutral zone "traps" are a natural part of hockey, well before New Jersey made them the loathed things they are by constantly playing the trap.

	06-05-2004 05:02									#430
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Even if I had Sutter paint it on his forehead you wouldn't believe it. Most teams trap to some degree. Are you telling me that Calgary didn't in the last game? I saw them doing it (overhead shot five players clogging up the neutral zone).

"To some degree", of course.

You make it sound like it's their strategy, like NJ, which is completely untrue.

	06-05-2004 05:05									#431
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but they are putting considerable mind to it, so it is one of their strategies. more than anything else though - they seem to be one of the most well rounded teams of the playoffs. and as lame as it sounds, you simply can not deny the heart and chemistry between the Calgary line up as top in the league.

	06-05-2004 05:08									#432
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quote: The Flames still trap in today's NHL who doesn't to at least some degree? and their success through 26 games has as much to do with cutting 19 goals from the against ledger as it does from adding 10 to the for side. But they do it aggressively, relying on a high-tempo puck pursuit all over the ice instead of the patient positioning game Minnesota employs with such dulling success, particularly when they've got last change at home. Calgary works hard to force mistakes instead of sitting back and waiting for them. They're also not scared to forecheck and their in-your-face brand of puck pursuit reminds many of the Vancouver Canucks a few years back, a team that used its speed up front to chase down everything, finishing hits and rushing defencemen into bad decisions,

http://english2.globetrotter.net/sp..._id=&id=1480427

Isn't that a fair description?

	06-05-2004 05:13									#433
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quote: Originally posted by Asher "To some degree", of course. You make it sound like it's their strategy, like NJ, which is completely untrue.

Hey? I'm not calling them the Devils but you have to admit that the previous article describes their strategy quite well - call it aggressive defence, stifling the other team, call it what you will. It's not as boring as Minnesota but it's a defensive strategy.

I'm the kind of guy who likes sports played the way Brazil played football in the 70s and 80s (that was something to see - sometimes it looked like 10 forwards and a goalie).

	06-05-2004 05:14									#434
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It's not a trap game, a trap game is where that is your strategy -- like New Jersey (the most boring team to watch, ever).

I hate the ****ing Devils - you hear that, Siddiqui?

	06-05-2004 05:16									#435
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka yeah, Roberts is apparently a CALGARY man, b*tch. do some research on that, btw

So is Nieuwendyk, who I have praised to the heavens in this and other threads. So was Dougie.

	06-05-2004 05:39									#436
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Yes, I heard that... and I have an Asher quote to offer for any Devil hater this year, or last year, or of the last five years:

quote: Neutral zone trap, it certainly is not. Anyone who claims it is forfeits any rights to claim they know the most basic things about hockey.

Having forecheckers negates the designation 'trap'.

	06-05-2004 05:41									#437
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?
What point are you trying to prove?

	06-05-2004 05:47									#438
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That the Devils haven't played the 'trap' since Lemaire left.

	06-05-2004 05:51									#439
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It does not. The standard trap has one forechecker.

	06-05-2004 05:52									#440
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Actually the neutral zone trap is different because it has NO forecheckers. If the trap has one forechecker, then the Wings during Bowman's era were playing a trap with the Left Wing Lock. And besides, the Devs play with 1 - 2 forecheckers.

http://www.ehow.com/how_5651_run-hockey-defense:.html

quote: 1. Set the defense in the neutral zone like the ends on a five-pointed star. The center is in the middle just inside the blue line on the offensive side of the rink. Two wings position themselves on the red line to either side of the center circle. The two defensemen maintain position on the back blue line, slightly inside of the wings. 2. Instruct the center to maintain his position as the offense approaches, forcing the attackers toward the boards.

	06-05-2004 06:00									#441
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Just shows that there is no consensus. That idiot Pierre McGuire was going on about the trap on TSN a while back and he claimed it was 1 in, 4 back.

I've heard that said elsewhere too. And it's used to described stifling neutral zone play or just stifling play.

	06-05-2004 06:03									#442
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Well, I'd imagine the it should be defined by who began the practice... ie, the Swedes.

	06-05-2004 06:17									#443
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Actually I saw the guy who invented it interviewed - he described it as 1-2-2.

And oddly enough, he invented it as an offensive tactic, to pressure in the offensive zone IIRC. It's amazing the level of hockey triviality that Canadian networks will stoop to.

	06-05-2004 06:58									#444
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Agathon, there are moments where playing the trap is the way to go. For instance, when Tampa scores three goals, they will sit on their lead. However, and especially in the playoffs, one team playing the trap usually means that the others is insanely trying to get back into the game, which is also known as cool and offensive play.

And I don't know why you found Tampa-Montreal to be boring. They were the games with the lesser number of play stops. Do you really think that a team with Martin St-Louis and Lecavalier would use the trap as a regular strategy?

	06-05-2004 07:30									#445
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I don't blame Tampa, I blame the Habs. They can stink up any game.

	06-05-2004 07:54									#446
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Well, when you have REAL goalies like CuJo and Kipper, you have low-scoring games. Just because Belfour sucks, doesn't make a 7-2 game a fun game to watch.

You still don't get the simple fact that Belfour is one of the great goalies playing today. He's a hall of famer. He was the guy that made the difference against Ottawa and with the exception of one game, he played great against Philly.

As for low scoring games, Just look at these scores:
Vancouver 5, Calgary 3
Vancouver 5, Calgary 4
Detroit 5, Calgary 2
Detroit 4, Calgary 2

Don't get me wrong. I think Kippy is great goalie, but we can say that without trashing Eddie.

	06-05-2004 07:56									#447
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Don't waste your time Tingkai. An Asher opinion is impervious to anything as worthless as evidence.

	06-05-2004 07:58									#448
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I was saying I'd rather have Kipper in goal than Belfour, and the stats now back that up -- and Kipper faced tougher teams and had a weaker defense infront of him in the process.

Belfour is a hall of famer, but that doesn't say anything about his current play. He's good, but he's not as good as Kipper these days.

And I never said Calgary had always low-scoring games, Kipper had bad nights just like everyone else -- though he's never let in 7 goals in a game.

High scoring games with Kipper and CuJo these days are the exception, not the rule -- and that comment was aimed at Agathon claiming that the Flames games are boring because they're low scoring. They're low scoring because the goalies are good, not because the offense was impotent. Any person who watched those games could attest to the greatness of both goalies making amazing saves.

I do admire how you attempt to twist everything from context ever so slightly -- it is patently clear now that you are undoubtedly an experienced journalist.

	06-05-2004 08:01									#449
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Don't waste your time Tingkai. An Asher opinion is impervious to anything as worthless as evidence.

My opinion that Kipper is a better goalie than Belfour today, and I was right -- as the end-game stats show.

Evidence is on my side, my friend.

	06-05-2004 08:05									#450
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Belfour also has 8 penalty minutes this post-season, while Kipper has 0. Dirty player.