06-05-2004 08:09									#451
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It's worthless. If someone like Roman Turek wins two games in a row and Belfour loses two in a row on the same days, does that mean that Turek is a better goalie than Belfour in any sense that would matter to someone wanting to sign a new goalie?

No.

Kiprusoff is an average goalie on a good streak. He's not even as good as Giguere was last year (and we know what happened to him). To compare Kiprusoff in any way with a future Hall of Famer who's probably by general consent the second best goalie in the league (behind Brodeur) is just silly.

In fact it's worse than silly, it's utterly risible.

Follow the money. If you put both on the market as free agents tomorrow, guess who would attract the higher price.

	06-05-2004 08:16									#452
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quote: He's not even as good as Giguere was last year

Then how come it was Kipper who set the NHL league record this year, if Giguere was better? If Brodeur was better, how come he didn't set the league record?

Let's face it -- Belfour is good, but he's old. He's not as good as Kipper. It doesn't matter -- at all -- if you think he's an "average goalie on a good streak", because his "good streak" has lasted all f*cking season long, and has set NHL records. What matters is -- as of this moment -- Kipper's seasonal and post-seasonal stats are better than Belfour, and Kipper had a LOT less talent as defense than Belfour did to help me out, and played against better teams.

Given a choice between Kiprusoff and Belfour, any intelligent hockey fan would choose Kiprusoff for the team. Hell, if Kipper played that last game, he wouldn't have let more than 1 in, and Toronto would still be here.

	06-05-2004 08:30									#453
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Meaningless drivel as usual.

No intelligent hockey fan would choose an unproven goaltender. One good season isn't really enough to prove long term consistency. Similar claims were made about Nabokov not that long ago - he's good, but he's no Brodeur or Belfour.

If in your deluded mind you want to believe otherwise, that's your problem.

	06-05-2004 08:33									#454
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You seem to be missing the critical point -- Kiprusoff has proven to be better than Belfour in the regular and post-season, so the meaningless drivel here is about you being conservative and only going with what has proven to work.

And as Toronto and Detroit have so eloquently shown, what has proven to work doesn't actually work...

	06-05-2004 08:34									#455
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quote: Originally posted by Asher My opinion that Kipper is a better goalie than Belfour today, and I was right -- as the end-game stats show. Evidence is on my side, my friend.

As any goalie will tell you, one bad night can really screw up the stats. Look at the 7-2 game. Belfour had no help. The Toronto defence fell apart with McCabe being the MVP for the Flyers.

Take out that one game and Eddie has better stats then Kippy.

Eddie had three games where he let in more than four goals. Kippy had five of those games.

Eddie shut down the highest scoring team in the league.

In the end, Toronto didn't have what it takes to win, but that ain't Eddie's fault.

	06-05-2004 08:35									#456
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So what, Kipper has had bad nights which screw up his stats, too -- but that didn't stop you from flashing them around before. now that they don't say what you want, you add a big disclaimer. boo-hoo.

	06-05-2004 08:38									#457
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You seem to be missing the critical point

I'm not missing any point that is really critical. You're just full of crap on this issue. Not that I expected anything more.

	06-05-2004 08:39									#458
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Which part is full of crap? Is it true or is it not that Kipper's stats are better, despite playing harder teams?

	06-05-2004 08:39									#459
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You seem to be missing the critical point -- Kiprusoff has proven to be better than Belfour in the regular and post-season,

Regular season
Eddie 34 wins Kippy 24 wins
Eddie 10 shut outs, Kippy 4 SOs

Kippy wins on GAA and Sv%, but Eddie faced 50% more shots then Kippy.

What's really amazing about Eddie is that at the ripe old age of 39, he's still performing, he's still one of the great goaltenders.

Maybe Kippy will be a great goaltender, or maybe he's a flash in the pan.

Personally, I like Kippy's style. I hate the Giguere types who simply rely on gigantic pads and the butterfly to stop shots. Guys like Kippy, Eddie, and of course Broduer are lot more fun to watch.

	06-05-2004 08:41									#460
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42 to go, guys.

You should drop the gloves. Game's over. No instigator penalties anymore.

	06-05-2004 08:44									#461
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Asher, you're just a fan boy. When you put on the gear and play goal, come and talk to me. Cause until you been a goalie, you don't know what you're talking abut

**And the gloves are off***

	06-05-2004 08:45									#462
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When I used wins as a shutout metric, I was laughed at, and here you are?

You quoted GAA and SV% in the post-season, so be consistent.

Kipper faced more shots than Eddie in the post-season, against BETTER shooters too.

You can only twist the stats to say so much, you know.

Let's face it: GAA and SV% are the best metric of a goalie's ability in the net.

Regular season:
Kipper's GAA: 1.69
Eddie's GAA: 2.13

Post season:
Kipper's GAA: 1.92
Eddie's GAA: 2.09

While Kipper was playing against higher-seeded teams (including the #1 team in the league), and Toronto was not.

Sorry, Kipper is statistically the better goalie this year.

	06-05-2004 08:47									#463
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Regular season Eddie 34 wins Kippy 24 wins Eddie 10 shut outs, Kippy 4 SOs Kippy wins on GAA and Sv%, but Eddie faced 50% more shots then Kippy. What's really amazing about Eddie is that at the ripe old age of 39, he's still performing, he's still one of the great goaltenders. Maybe Kippy will be a great goaltender, or maybe he's a flash in the pan. Personally, I like Kippy's style. I hate the Giguere types who simply rely on gigantic pads and the butterfly to stop shots. Guys like Kippy, Eddie, and of course Broduer are lot more fun to watch.

Fuhr was the king of fun to watch, but that was mainly a product of him being a circus acrobat and having half his defense more focused on goals for than against. I have seen him stop a shot while literally standing on his head. Actually it was the back of his neck with his entire body above him while he still got the puck with his glove.

Belfour has had a good career, and is very solid. But Roy and Fuhr, among others, have been on a level beyond that. Kipper shows signs of being there, but it will have to last more than one season.

	06-05-2004 08:53									#464
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You know in your heart of hearts which bit. Jesus, in any year over the past decade there have been a few goalies who have had better stats than Belfour. That makes no difference to people who know what they are talking about. Belfour is simply the better goalie because he has what they don't, the ability to perform at a consistently high level. This is what distinguishes the league's elite players from the also rans.

Kiprusoff may have that ability, but we have no way of telling.

If one year's stats were all that mattered the Leafs would trade Sundin for Marian Hossa. Or better, Calgary would trade Iginla for Jagr (who got one more point this season IIRC). Was Hossa a better player than Sundin this year? No. Was Jagr a better player than Iginla this year? No.



PS. Harder teams? Your team is in the weaker conference this year in case you hadn't noticed.

	06-05-2004 08:54									#465
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Wasn't Fuhr useless when he stopped snorting coke?

	06-05-2004 08:55									#466
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon PS. Harder teams? Your team is in the weaker conference this year in case you hadn't noticed.

Do you need me to explain to you how the President's Trophy works?

	06-05-2004 08:59									#467
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Wasn't Fuhr useless when he stopped snorting coke?

Heh. Nice try.

*polishes memories of 10 years of great hockey and 5 Stanley Cups*

*realises that those days ain't ever coming back and tears up*

	06-05-2004 08:59									#468
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Edmonton is the City of Champions.

	06-05-2004 09:00									#469
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Do you need me to explain that a good team in the weaker conference is going to get more points beating up on the also rans than in a conference where the pickings aren't so good. This given that they play teams in their own conference more than those in the other.

Look at Detroit's division. If the Leafs were in that division they would have won the President's trophy. As it stands there is no easybeat team in the Northeast Division. Even Buffalo nearly made the playoffs.

	06-05-2004 09:01									#470
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Heh. Nice try. *polishes memories of 10 years of great hockey and 5 Stanley Cups* *realises that those days ain't ever coming back and tears up*

That wasn't a troll. Some hockey nut at work told me that. I'd like to know if there is anything to it.

	06-05-2004 09:13									#471
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I don't think so. Yes, the boys did like to party. They were heady days with a group of young men who concentrated a lot of talent and some ego in one small team. But, no, the coke did not make him great (although it may have ruined him in the end).

The secret to Grant Fuhr lay in two things. Pure athletic ability (he was a small man and did not use equipment as Roy did) was one aspect. The other was Ron Low, the Oilers goaltending coach. It is not rocket science to make the conclusion when you see that Fuhr, Moog, Ranford, and Cujo all went through Ron Low's 'how to be a great NHL goalie school'. The Oilers didn't trade for great goalies, they minted them.

	06-05-2004 10:04									#472
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Anyways, I'm still depressed about the Leafs. Even though I'm used to it after all these years, I really thought they had a chance this year. Everything was there.

I'm starting to think that Keon has put a curse on the Leafs (he still hasn't forgiven the organisation for the way it treats him).

I also think that in a lot of ways, the fans and the media are to blame. We want the Leafs to win this year. There's so much pressure on them that they never get a chance to build up a team. As a result, the Leafs are constantly under pressure to trade away prospects for "proven" players and all too often that doesn't work.

Getting Leetch was a smart move, but Nolan has been a dud, same with Francis, Klee, Johansson (didn't cost anything, but he didn't do much either).

Signing a player (like Belfour) is fine, but too many trades have cost the Leafs dearly.

But of course, the fans and the media scream to high heaven if the Leafs don't make trades.

Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. I just can't figure out why a team with stacks of money and talented players can't make it to the finals in 37 years, let alone win the Cup.

	06-05-2004 10:13									#473
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I guess I really can't talk, but I did tell you this would happen, Tingkai. Even though this management is 'willing to spend', Toronto just doesn't have it. The core of their team doesn't have the playoff killer instinct.

	06-05-2004 12:07									#474
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theres a reason the sharks got rid of kipprusoff - CUZ HE AINT AS MONEY AS NABOKOV - SEE YOU AT THE TANK *****ES, AND YOUD BETTER BRING IT, CUZ THE SHARKS ARE CIRCLING IN FOR THE KILL.

	06-05-2004 12:38									#475
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I don't blame Tampa, I blame the Habs. They can stink up any game.

	06-05-2004 12:40									#476
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Similar claims were made about Nabokov not that long ago - he's good, but he's no Brodeur or Belfour.

True. And there's Theodore too.

	06-05-2004 17:00									#477
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia theres a reason the sharks got rid of kipprusoff - CUZ HE AINT AS MONEY AS NABOKOV - SEE YOU AT THE TANK *****ES, AND YOUD BETTER BRING IT, CUZ THE SHARKS ARE CIRCLING IN FOR THE KILL.

They got rid of Kipper because they were too stupid to play him. Sutter, having coached the Sharks for many seasons, knew what he could do, and got him for next to nothing from you guys.

	06-05-2004 20:54									#478
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Is this Kipper- Eddie debate STILL going on???

I think there are facts that both can agree

1. Kipper had the best season of any goalie in the league ( Tingkai-- using wins is disingenuous since it reflects more the strength of the team PLUS kipper had a major injury and missed a good chunk of the season.)

2. Eddie has a longer better track record

If I was picking a goalie to play a single must win game right now, I would give the nod to Kipper. Longer term as a GM I would want . .. hey Kipper again-- I could get him cheaper and he's younger with more upside. True he only has the one superlative year and for that reason I would say that overall Balfour has an edge -- Hall of famer vs one-season wonder. . ..

But still-- I have seen Kipper play all season-- if I had to tap anyone to go into the game right now, he would be the guy.

So

this season Kipper
overall Eddie

	07-05-2004 00:35									#479
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quote: They got rid of Kipper because they were too stupid to play him. Sutter, having coached the Sharks for many seasons, knew what he could do, and got him for next to nothing from you guys.

wrong again - we got rid of kipper because he wasnt as good as nabokov. whos got playoff experience? nabokov. whos gonna win the stanley cup this year? nabokov. case in point.

	07-05-2004 03:12									#480
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia wrong again - we got rid of kipper because he wasnt as good as nabokov. whos got playoff experience? nabokov. whos gonna win the stanley cup this year? nabokov. case in point.

Nabokov is good, but not as good.

You guys had Kipper as your THIRD goaltender, so this argument doesn't even fly. The Shark's management is incompetent, which is why they won't win the cup.