22-04-2004 16:41									#1
	POLL: Shall we only support 1024*768 onwards? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Hi all,

as we have some problems for graphical decisions in this thread I thought let's run a poll to see what a majority of the people think. Please also feel free to post your opinion here.

This will not be a binding result, just, me thinks, it would be good to have a better/broader picture.

	22-04-2004 16:46									#2
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No, as many resolutions as possible should be supported, we should aim to make the game as resolution-independent as possible. (Some restrictions will undoubtably be inevitable, there's no reason to give up before we even started.)

	22-04-2004 17:06									#3
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I understand your point of view Locutus but if there are no technical issues with lower end computers I don't see why we should limit ourselves because of the 800x600 resolution.

	22-04-2004 17:16									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Since i can play it on a P233 4meg graphics card at 1024*768 then i dont mind not supporting lower.

	22-04-2004 17:16									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin I understand your point of view Locutus but if there are no technical issues with lower end computers I don't see why we should limit ourselves because of the 800x600 resolution.

That's the whole point: it SHOULDN'T be a limit. Why can't we design the UI such that both 800x600 and 1600x1200 users get the most of the UI? One group shouldn't have to suffer from the other...

	22-04-2004 17:35									#6
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Is the debate over the size of the city manager screen the only reason we're considering dumping 800x600? If so, that doesn't seem like a good enough reason by itself.

	22-04-2004 18:11									#7
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Not only because of this, but as I said, getting general feedback in general.

	22-04-2004 18:19									#8
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I voted yes - i speak as the owner of the most feeble computer anyone here(and maybe in the world!) runs CTP2 on.
Ok 1024x768 pushes my system to its limits, but it can do it.
If it solves issues over the Ui design then its got to be helpfull?

I suppose one day its possible i might have a less powerfull machine.....for playing the ancient classics i cant get to run now(the DOS only stuff), but i wont be aiming to run CTP2 on it so it wont matter

my p166 2mb graphics card 48Mb ram system runs in 1024x768 fine

lets think that we could be here for another few years on this game and that you cant buy a new pc that cant handle 1024x768.

Locutus+ One Present, what exactly are you worried about in droping 800x600? I need more info from you guys to change my mind

Last edited by child of Thor on 22-04-2004 at 18:28

	22-04-2004 18:31									#9
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If we stop supporting it we will only lose newbies.

Plus ctp2 is currently in the cheep end of the market and most people with low spec machines buy them.

	22-04-2004 18:36									#10
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quote: Originally posted by The Big Mc If we stop supporting it we will only lose newbies. Plus ctp2 is currently in the cheep end of the market and most people with low spec machines buy them.

Big MC, have you read CoT's specs???????????

You can't really get lower than this.

And myself I am running a 300MHz machine. I think CoT and me have the oldests beasts around.............or better to say antique ones

	22-04-2004 18:41									#11
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Child of Thor spec is old and if child of Thor has the bigger resolution the game will probably go as fast as a asthmatic ant with heavy shopping while playing the bigger maps.

	22-04-2004 18:45									#12
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor Locutus+ One Present, what exactly are you worried about in droping 800x600? I need more info from you guys to change my mind

IMO design, in this case visual design, should rarely be the determining factor. Just because we want to move the bells and whistles around shouldn't rule out something as critical as lower resolution.

Let's not fix the things that aren't broken.

or

Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water.

or

Don't take any wooden nickles.

	22-04-2004 18:45									#13
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quote: Originally posted by The Big Mc If we stop supporting it we will only lose newbies. Plus ctp2 is currently in the cheep end of the market and most people with low spec machines buy them.

true but how low spec is low spec? - i think i'm running the game with the minimum specs(p166) and the resolution isnt an issue, even if end games get sooo slloooooow

most newbies will have new computers no? heck most people who use their pc for games will have one at least as powerful as mine - it was really hard to find such a low spec pc, so i'm finding it hard to think we would lose loads of people cause they cant display 1024x768? even the 15" monitor i use can handle it

@ One Present - i hear you and it makes perfect sense to approach from that angle.

still if going up to 1024x768 as a minimum only effects 1 person in 1000(out my ass) but makes it easier to design a decent UI that can hold all the info we want in the nicest looking way. Then why stick with 800x600 and have to crunch things, or make it more complicted by having maybe two different designs which would also mean most likely two explanations in the manual on how to use each one? plus i think it would be a bit confusing having two different styles, at the moment its fine as nothing changes except that the sprites get smaller + the world view bigger

I'm just wondering who the 800x600 is for, especialy these days?

	22-04-2004 18:48									#14
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quote: the game will probably go as fast as a asthmatic ant with heavy shopping

had to read it a few times.

	22-04-2004 19:04									#15
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on the large maps it sure does go that slow - i usualy go make a cup of tea, or walk the dog in truth on this machine i stick to small or medium maps

but it doesnt effect the resolution......

	22-04-2004 19:07									#16
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I don't know what to think about this. In my experience, the biggest problem is with laptops, because their upper limit on resolution is much "harder" than a monitor's. Until last year my laptop was still 800x600 and my present one is only 1024x768. I still know a couple of people with laptops at 800x600 (including one person using my old one...).

My desktop, on the other hand is an ancient P166 with a Voodoo Banshee (which is about a year newer than any other component of the machine), and I have always run that at 1024x768, even on the previous graphics card.

	22-04-2004 19:18									#17
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a fellow 166 er

i completely forgot to think about laptop users, i'm guessing it would have to be a low end machine that would have the problems? my mates laptop is more powerful than the new desktop pc i'm getting soon!! (his laptop cost as much as a car - so i would hope so! - i'll make my pc for a few hundred i hope)

	22-04-2004 19:41									#18
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Leave 800x600. One reason is that, as Locutus said, noone should suffer, and the game should be as independent as possible.

Now, I don't have a problem running 1024, certainly not for such a game like CtP2, on my machines. But, 800x600 is fine and used a lot. Civ 3 was released without support for 800x600... of which I was absolutely the biggest whiner. Yet, when I developed a solution letting the game to be played at 800x600, it got quite popular, especially among laptop users. Putting limits like that isn't neccessary. Yes, maybe with an improved UI the game will be less good looking on 800x600, but heck, some games I've played in modesthat were half-supported, and still enjoyed them!

	22-04-2004 19:48									#19
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor 1 person in 1000(out my ass)

Well, let's use statistics that are not pulled out of CoT's arse for a moment:

In early 2004, the statistics for Internet usage were (are) the following:

Higher: 10%
1024x768: 47%
800x600: 37%
640x480: 1%
Lower: 5%

(source; other source; third source)

So 40%+ of all Internet users still use 800x600 or smaller. I once again recall that there was a huge riot about RoN and Civ3 not supporting 800x600. For RoN, a fan-made patch was made available to support that resolution, which was downloaded almost 500 times from Apolyton alone (and that while Apolyton is one of the smallest RoN sites on the web and this patch doesn't work seem to work for the latest patch). The Civ3 equivalent has some 2800 downloads (and that while all it requires IIRC is changing a single line in the Civ3 equivalent of userprofile.txt).

	22-04-2004 20:01									#20
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Loc, I'm afraid you're wrong on that Civ 3 solution. It doesn't just require a txt file change. That change forces the resolution (due to a bug in the game), but you can't use half the buttons that remain off-screen, and that's what the solution fixes. I must say that Firaxis did a great job when they agreed not to fix that bug .

	22-04-2004 20:11									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Well, let's use statistics that are not pulled out of CoT's arse for a moment: In early 2004, the statistics for Internet usage were (are) the following: Higher: 10% 1024x768: 47% 800x600: 37% 640x480: 1% Lower: 5% For RoN, a fan-made patch was made available to support that resolution, which was downloaded almost 500 times The Civ3 equivalent has some 2800 downloads

The first might be just a convience setting, but what counts more for me, would be the second 'source' you mentioned.

But IIRC, the writing was also getting far smaller in CIV3, can't remember in CTP2, though...........

	22-04-2004 20:53									#22
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It doesnt mean all those 800x600 people cant run in 1024x768 and thats also the resolutions used to browse the internet, not playing games, which may be different depending on the game.

	22-04-2004 21:25									#23
	Inflate your Upload Space

True, most of them can run 1024 - though the reason I wasn't able to is having a monitor manfucatured in 1993, I think, maybe 1994. However, those who browse the Net at 800x600, do so for a reason - they probably believe that things are too small for them at 1024, or something.

	23-04-2004 00:49									#24
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Yes, like I said before many people like 800x600, regardless of whatever their machines support. This is also why 1024x768 is so popular: most modern monitors support much higher resolutions, yet very few people are taking advantage of this. The reasons for liking such low resolutions is a complete mystery to me -- as far as I'm concerned screen resolutions can't get big enough (as long as the monitor size increases with it, or everything becomes too small). But hey, if people like it, who are we to take it away from them?

	23-04-2004 00:57									#25
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7 years ago a client showed me his brand new 21" monitor. Very expensive back then. He was running it at 640x480 because it made women's breasts larger.

	23-04-2004 01:02									#26
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Yeah, but Locutus, if you are on a 15" monitor, would you really want to use 1280? For my liking at least, that indeed makes things too smal.... so I'm like, 1024 on 15", and 1280 on 17".

	23-04-2004 01:02									#27
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At that resolution on such a screen, you should be able to count the 'pixels'

	23-04-2004 01:04									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Yeah, but Locutus, if you are on a 15" monitor, would you really want to use 1280? For my liking at least, that indeed makes things too smal.... so I'm like, 1024 on 15", and 1280 on 17".

Most monitors are 17" or larger these days. Even for LCDs it's becoming a standard.

And yes, when I had a 15" monitor I was running it on 1280x960 -- with the 'large font' option Windows offers that worked brilliantly

	23-04-2004 01:08									#29
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

My PC is a laptop with a 15" screen running at 1600*1200 res. When playing CTPII I choose 1280x1024, otherwise it's just too small for my taste.

quote: Originally posted by OnePresent 7 years ago a client showed me his brand new 21" monitor. Very expensive back then. He was running it at 640x480 because it made women's breasts larger.

After posting this I had a vision of all CTPII Source Coders immediately changing their resolutions to 640x480.

	23-04-2004 01:09									#30
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My experience suggests that most people are moving to LCD displays now, which is a whole different story - you essentially have no choice of resolution at all if you want your display to look reasonable.

I'd say about 80-90% of my friends are using LCD displays, and all the computers in the college computer room are LCD too...