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debeest
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I'm in. But not until tomorrow, so go ahead, anyone.
(Is this a free-for-all?)
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Bloody Monk
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austin, tx
May 2001
time: 23:35
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Hey Grigor!!
Yep, I wondered about the city names that were offered, too. I'm guessing that in checking out the save, OnS built some cities??
I had that tile in mind, too, for the third city, Stoney Lake. But I would have built the fourth closer by, on the coast, just four clicks away where I mentioned two seafood specials (you uncovered one of them). There is also a four special site at the SW tip, though two are further out to sea and the other hidden. Perhaps multiple cities should be built there. With three more cities, the best sites will be used up and a few fill-ins will remain.
If we go Curr->Trade->Map, we can start exploring offshore and decide whether Marco Polo or Lighthouse should be first on the WOW list, with HG next. Anyway, that's how the 'Cloistered One' would do it. 
The game is afoot!!
Monk
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Bloody Monk
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austin, tx
May 2001
time: 23:35
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Further review, and the click-click of the black art, indicates that LH is not an immediate need. Careful sailing can reach new lands without danger, careful being an important term. So I will amend the previous by calling for MPE, for maps and research assistence, and HG for the happiness/sleaze benifits.
A standard approach really.
Then go for Lighthouse, Monotheism/Mikes, and Steam, for a Crooks and Clads romp. As soon as those techs are in hand, reduce the science slider to zero to slow the AI's research pace.
What do you think, Grigor??
Monk
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Grigor
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Oberlin, Ohio
Jan 2000
time: 00:35
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On a recent CFC game of the month screaming for rapid conquest, I tried a number of early strategies to see what got there the fstest. Now, I am not in the league of some (Chofritz, for instance, who is ridiculously speedy, or of course Smash) but I am within hailing distance of Lafayette (though still lagging somewhat, I fear) in these matters. But my discoveries were as follows:
1. The biggest early slowdown is building roads too soon. As you can see, I was unable to resist that error in this game.
2. Early exploration is faster than waiting around. Much faster. So much so that an early Map Making is usually preferable to running quickly to Trade. In this game, you chose BW as the off tech to Monarchy, so I continued that strategy. At this point, we should aim for MPE as soon as possible, even starting now to plan for four settler builds to convert into caravans. Maps will then be available from the AI.
3. Without question the fastest conquest is with vet Knights. I associate this strategy with Smash. Once MPE comes online, we should be able to pick up Mapmaking, HB and WC, and must trade maps with all the AI. We can then go directly to Feudalism and Chivalry, possibly as soon as 800BC. The veteran part is useful, so Sun Tzu should come ahead of HG, which we won't need until we start rolling up the AI. It seems to take about 6 knights to roll up an AI civ, with 3 triremes to get them there. If some enterprising AI has done a MP trick and built a city on a defensive special (river), there may be some problem until Crooks come online. But even then, 6 vet knights will usually take the city out, as long as we don't mind most of them dying. After rollng up an AI civ there are typically around 4 injured vet knights left over and 1-3 new cities for them to heal in, which gives a start for the next army.
4. Lighthouse saves time. Navigation is way down the road, and the direct ocean path is much preferable to hugging the coast, even when it is possible to get there that way. Plus, vet triremes rule the ancient seas.  Usually this strategy leads to victory even before Navigtion, so Clads won't be a factor. But one must admit that they are way fun 
5. I have not determined which is quicker: to establish an early beachhead and build up gradually in the AI territory, or to build up early at home and whack 'em all at once. The early beachhead strategy often involves fighting a lot of pusillanimous battles outside of cities, which is rarely an efficient use of force against the AI. If we are disciplined enough to stay at peace until we have the overwhelming force necessary, then the early beachhead may save some time since it requires fewer triremes.
6. Homeland happiness can be controlled by martial law until HG comes. I don't see a need for any white goods at all unless an opportunity arises for an early barracks - for instance, in the event that we find a nearby AI before we are in a position to get Sun Tzu.
Isn't this game great??
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Bloody Monk
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austin, tx
May 2001
time: 23:35
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Stu,
I was able to successfully "use" the zip save by unzipping to the MGE directory and changing the comma to a period. Also, it starts with sc_ whereas the original save was sa_. Lots of technical bumps in the road with this one.
Anyone, please,
It's been six years since I played bloodlust and that was classic 2.42. Can I please get a "briefing" on bloodlust effects?? How does it affect the ability to get maps for instance, or trade techs?? I assume trade to non-coastal cities would be virtually impossible, right?? Will the AI attack at ALL times, or just -v- the human player?? Thanks,
Monk
(Just in case, here is Grigor's save.)
 Attachment: sa_b2000.sav
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).
Last edited by Bloody Monk on 24-04-2004 at 21:55
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Bloody Monk
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austin, tx
May 2001
time: 23:35
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Grigor,
Very nice, very thoughtful strategy!!
1) Roads...While another city could have been built sooner (adding to total arrows and, thus, speeding research), the early roads speed movement and will be NEEDED quickly, so it will even out.
2) I thought a long time about taking Map Making over Bronze, but Bronze allows rushing the second row, and this early in the game, city building seems a higher piority to me.
3) I neglected to mention STWA; it definitely has a place (along with LH) in the VET Crooks and Super Clads strategy. You may be right about racing to Chivalry for vet Knights, but I need to see it work to be convinced. It seems at first consideration that there would not be enough cities at that point to make switching to a war footing worhtwhile. By going to Monotheism (with Seafaring for explorers) the sleaze could continue offshore so a more powerful "critical mass" of cities could be laid down before switching to all out war. But, you definitely got my attention with this plan.
4) Lighthouse 
The rest is tactics, a matter of taste, I think...mayonaise or mustard or both!!
And indeed YES!! This is a very great game.
Monk
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Bloody Monk
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austin, tx
May 2001
time: 23:35
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Since we agree that MPE is a priority build...
My experience is that Map is almost always available thru trade. Likewise, Pottery, Mysticism, and Writing are usually available, making it easier to get HG and Philosophy, Monothesim. Letting the AI do some of our research for us is just as important--I think--as getting their maps.
By delaying war a bit longer, the AI will ususally have finished Math, Wheel, and Construction (along with their defaults, WC and Horse) very early on.
ALSO:
Remember that restarts are ON!! 
Unless we make a convention about all-on-one-turn victory, this game will go on until a1500 (unless Giga map makes a difference) at the very least. I forsee a long, boring end game with zoo cities otherwise.
Makes me wonder if we don't need more handicaps to make this more challenging. Must get to and stay in Republic, or no Fundy, and especially, no city bribe.
Monk
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Grigor
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Oberlin, Ohio
Jan 2000
time: 00:35
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Oops - too late at night. On a Mac I have to make the save name myself and then zip it, but that seems to have been too much for me. Thanks for the help BM.
My preference for Mapmaking instead of BW has to do with the likelihood of finding useful stuff from huts on other islands, especially given the high probability of nomads or advanced tribes. Often, enough units can be found to even conquer an AI city.
As regards Smash's Knight rush, the small number of cities is not a hindrance; the empire will expand rapidly as we swallow hapless AI civs. At least that's the way I have always tried it. IIRC LaFayette likes to build up the home civ first and start romping only at 1 ad.
I think the question is when we are likely to begin the invasion. I like starting as early as possible. MPE is often available around 1500bc, and I have even seen it as early as 1950bc. Chivalry can be researched to arrive around 1250bc almost all the time, and by 1000bc there is usually a reduced invasion force of non-vet knights ready to rumble. That's when I like to start. Because of travel time, an early start on exploration seems crucial. In the Us-vs-Them free-for-all, the rapid westward expansion paid dividends later in the game.
On the other hand, if we want to plan to conquer at exactly 1500AD, we can be peacable for a while. That at least raises the possibility that somebody will research industrialization and we will lose. And again, as SG(1) pointed out, Succession games have tended to last longer than many of us would take were we to play alone, so perhaps trying for the fastest conquering time will get us to a victory in 1750ad or so in the natural course of events.
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:35
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A Phalanx defends at 2, not 1.5 like vet Warrior. When it gets Vet it goes to 3. Fortification and terrain bonuses multiply much quicker when the base defense is 2, not 1.
My biggest problem with early Barbs is separating the Leader from the Archer. I use a Phalanx fortified on defensive terrain to withstand the Archer, then chase down the leader. It helps to have a Horse or Chariot around from a hut, but I don't think it's worth researching Horseback just to make one myself. I'd much rather my off-tech be Bronze, which sets up Currency (for Marketplaces) and then Trade (for caravans and Marco Polo).
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23-04-2004 22:36
Pro: city grows unencumbered by settler production for future SSC. Con: more cities means faster science. Pro: small island means no great sites for cities, so grow the ones we have. No decision will be necessary in my turns. 
SB settler to wheat for a road. Hut eschewed. 
Attachment: 
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