04-05-2004 05:32									#91
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

...and then, build some more."

Monk

	04-05-2004 06:14									#92
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Trajanus - Why don't you put the taxes to maximize gold and start the mobilization. It should be a very good strategy about now. I like to get Chivalry first, but it isn't necessary, and Elephants will do just fine. That's what succession games are about anyway - different ideas. And I'll bet you can't make it any more uncomfortable for the other players than I did!

	04-05-2004 20:39									#93
	Increase the size of your Attachments

My Early Conquest GOTM at CFC never even got to Chivalry: I started with non-vet Elephants and "survival of the fittest" made them vet along the way. I got Marco Polo for maps, Hanging Gardens to keep the cities from disorder, and LightHouse for unsinkable Triremes. Later I grabbed Great Wall before the AI could build it (and thereby missed building SunTzu). Depends on how "Early" you want to conquer...

	04-05-2004 22:28									#94
	Tired of ads?

With restarts enabled on a gigamap, it seems that a truly early endgame will be pretty difficult to arrange.

	05-05-2004 18:17									#95
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

No I was dead serious, I usually let my cities grow so they can pay the shield upkeep, get a temple, and start spitting out troops. Also I usually rely on great library for science as I don't research myself . Doesn't matter, I have tons of troops to maul their cities anyway

Oh well

	05-05-2004 22:01									#96
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

JR, the Restarts things is an annoyance but not a killer. When they restart they will get some freebie techs but will have to build cities all over again, and the best starting spots are already taken by civs. When you take out a civ, make sure you leave a couple cities around the area to force the restarted settlers to begin elsewhere. La fayette showed in a Strat thread that each color AI civ will restart 2 times, then a randomizer will add 1 or 2 more. But each time will get easier, and if you are building your civ as you take them out eventually you will cover most of the land and be able to spot and kill them before they even get the first city started.

	05-05-2004 22:25									#97
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Killing them is counter-productive nonsense, though it will feel goood.

Make one citizen zoo civs and avoid the need for finding them again. And don't forget that each time a civ restarts it may have more techs than the one you just killed. Also, this is a gigamap where we don't have LH.

Trajanus, if you want to build only mil-units, go ahead. With six done, play and post and let's go look for someone to jump!!

Monk

	06-05-2004 00:28									#98
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by debeest Good point, Monk. When you get to the point where you can rushbuy the camel and then the delivery pays for it immediately, the science and the trade route are free, and you've got the goose that lays the golden eggs.

Yes, yes, yes!! But there is a more fundamental piece worth emphasizing here. It is the way Trade lets you convert shields into beakers--thus speeding up research.

Building camels (one turn, then rush) along with enough boats to ship chain the deliveries every 1-3 turns, creates a self sustaining loop (that pays for itself). The trade routes are gravy. But the point is the science bonus that speeds the research.

And that's why, when there is a wonder to be built, I think the payoff threshhold should be 200g/beakers, because that is the camel's value in wonder building.

Monk

	06-05-2004 00:46									#99
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

This discussion about camels/trade -v- miitary units reminds me of the High Council 'movies'.

I play the role of the Trade Advisor and Tranjanus, the Military Advisor. His comment about the relative uselessness of anything other than military units recalled to mind the the term "platehead", while, I feel sure, mine probably made him shake his fist and grunt some appropriate expletive. Point of view is everything!!


I never realized before how much we resemble the High Council when we engage in "RCC" and commentary.


The important thing in SXN games is that whosoever is the current "noble ruler" is free to do whatever the heck me wants.

Monk

	06-05-2004 13:04									#100
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Yeah, Monk. We'll all do what you want.

That's the fun of SXN games. You get the save and scratch your head in bewilderment at what the player before you was thinking of. Then you play a couple of turns to try to put things towards your style, before you realise the wisdom of your predecessor and either regret or carry on regardless. After, you pass the save on to the next player and the cycle of head-scratching begins again. Mind you, all SXN games are different for all, but especially different for me because I never try to win by conquest when I play solo. Having said that, I really ought to be learning the ELG bible by heart to improve my technique.

	06-05-2004 20:25									#101
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by duke o' york Yeah, Monk. We'll all do what you want.

Reading comprehension not one of your strong suits is it, doy?? All I want is for someone to DO something!! Oh, yeah, wink, wink.

Lot's of chatter in this thread and others including rules for new games but very few folk actually playing the already open games anymore. What's up with that??

Monk

	06-05-2004 20:52									#102
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

You, me, Grigor and debeest are currentl prohibited (right, BM?).

Duke, Elephant, Trajanus, and myriad others can play.

Where's Stu????

	06-05-2004 21:14									#103
	Playlist Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Correct, JR. I believe this to be the current order of battle

Most Recent Player list:
4 Grigor
3 debeest
2 Bloody Monk
1 -Jrabbit

...with Grigor being the longest "on the bench."

Stu has reported RL limitations currently.

In my former business there was the phrase, "Many are called, few are chosen." But I also remarked to that, "We choose to be chosen."

In your name I start the chant, "Free the Romp Four!!"

Someone, please play.

Monk

	06-05-2004 21:53									#104
	Support Apolyton

Here goes nothing:

AD1: warrior rushed.
--------------------------
AD20: Copernicus in Slim Buttes, now building library. Feeder2 renamed to Fat Buttes . Triremes and elephants in production now.
AD40: rush diplomat in Snake canyon.
AD60: legion threatening Snake canyon bribed (city also rebelled ). Caravan disbanded in Slim Buttes for shields.
AD80: More of the same, not worth mentioning! Barbs around Snake canyon have been decimated though.
AD100: The age of reasoning begins in the Sioux city of Wood lake! Rejoice \o/. We now have discovered monotheism too, and now heading for Feudalism. Hut yields Republic btw.
AD120: rushing some warriors to keep cities content etc... busy sending boats with some elephants, a couple of legions, a lone horseman and a few diplos towards japanese. Also have a few crusaders boarding. Other cities starting caravans again (Michelangelo's chapel!)
AD140: nothing special
AD160: " "
AD180: library in Slim Buttes, building Mike now. Hostile Greeks declare war on us after my righteous demand for tribute! These vile and unworthy barbarians will have their scalps cut off by our mighty Legion+chariot!
AD200: Thermopylae captured together with 50 Gold. Chief's Crag also founded.

There's a trireme near Three forks with a caravan heading for Slim Buttes. A crusader is waiting to be picked up and sent to the Japanese as reinforcement. Notice the trireme is in open sea .
I think Dead Buffalo is about to go in disorder.

If you want to use my save go ahead, but you don't have to
You have 190 Gold to spend though
One final anomaly: My science advisor tells me I research a new tech every 8 turns, but my sliders tell me I research a new tech every 9 turns!

Attachment: sa_a200.sav
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

Last edited by Traianvs on 06-05-2004 at 22:02

	06-05-2004 23:47									#105
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Trajanus steps up! True to his word, new militia abound. (Don't think I've ever seen a camel disbanded for non-WoW shields before. Why was this necessary??)

I should be eligible now, but have committed to attacking the horror that is Lazy Summer. That will take awhile. And with Mother's Day and SWMBO's birthday back-to-back this weekend, free time will be largely nonexistent until next Tuesday.

	07-05-2004 01:34									#106
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I disbanded it because it has upkeep, and to speed up my library in Slim Buttes a bit

	07-05-2004 02:15									#107
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk And that's why, when there is a wonder to be built, I think the payoff threshhold should be 200g/beakers, because that is the camel's value in wonder building.

Monk, I think you're saying here exactly what I said originally -- 100g (+100 beakers) is the point where a caravan becomes worth delivering rather than Wonder-building.

~62 is where the caravan immediately pays its way, with the trade route being the gravy.

~125 is where the caravan immediately pays its own financial replacement cost, with both the science and the trade route being gravy.

	07-05-2004 02:38									#108
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Very good Trajanus...but camels have no upkeep. The correct answer is, "Cause I felt like at the time."

I like the way you refocused on conquest. This is a very good turnset and I am glad you hung in there. Let's go after the Lighthouse in Uppsala.

Here is something to think about concerning building WOW's. Build the camels first and when you have them ready, then start the wonder. It allows for quick shifts if an emergency comes up and camels can be rushed at a savings (doing it row by row) but the wonder can't.

Before the next player starts, almost every city needs some happiness adjustments. The problem is too much food leading to too much growth. Move workers around and or build another warrior. Letting the cities drop into disorder is unnecessary. Getting Mike's will be a huge step forward.

Monk

	07-05-2004 02:47									#109
	Inflate your Upload Space

JR,

Is this Mother's Day Weekend?? You will be missed.

If someone else can step in and play now, then I can get out of the Big House to celebrate the weekend.

Monk

	07-05-2004 02:57									#110
	Inflate your Upload Space

debeest,

Your point is well taken and was never questioned by me. Your theory is sound.

You are using an economic model and I suggested a cash flow model. Not that it is better; just that cash levels are a reality that must also be considered. If the camels don't pay for their replacements, the cash must come from some other 'need'.

I think that the higher numbers have to be used where cash flow is a consideration. As I said, "You can't use beakers to buy camels.'

Monk

	07-05-2004 10:54									#111
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Trajanus One final anomaly: My science advisor tells me I research a new tech every 8 turns, but my sliders tell me I research a new tech every 9 turns!

I believe the science advisor's estimates is based on the beakers produced by the current position of all workers. The sliders take account of the fact that you have one or more cities in disorder that won't contribute their beakers.

RJM at Sleeper's

	07-05-2004 17:14									#112
	Get a bigger avatar today!

RJM sighting!!!

Won't you join us, sleeperman?

	08-05-2004 11:19									#113
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit RJM sighting!!! Won't you join us, sleeperman?

I lurk, therefore I am.

RJM at Sleeper's

	10-05-2004 21:52									#114
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk As I said, "You can't use beakers to buy camels.'

If you were to swap "sacrifice" for "use", I would contend that. Often right after i get Trade I lower my research rate to maximize taxes for rushbuying camels (usually between 2000 and 1000BC). I figure the camels will get me Marco Polo, and the techs will be recovered from trade with the AIs. If I can let them do the research for me, I can concentrate on building up my city while selectively choosing the techs I need at the moment. Only the time-critical ones that the AI is neglecting get my scientist's attention till critical wonders and infrastructure are in place for fast growth. And with the improved attitudes that tech swap/gift brings, I get maps to speed caravan deliveries for more rushbuying gold and beakers.

	11-05-2004 11:34									#115
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Elephant Often right after i get Trade I lower my research rate to maximize taxes for rushbuying camels (usually between 2000 and 1000BC). I figure the camels will get me Marco Polo, and the techs will be recovered from trade with the AIs. If I can let them do the research for me, I can concentrate on building up my city while selectively choosing the techs I need at the moment. Only the time-critical ones that the AI is neglecting get my scientist's attention till critical wonders and infrastructure are in place for fast growth. And with the improved attitudes that tech swap/gift brings, I get maps to speed caravan deliveries for more rushbuying gold and beakers.

So obvious once you've said it, but I never thought of that.



I bet it's written down in the ELG as well.

RJM at Sleeper's

	13-05-2004 09:03									#116
	Got spare money?

It's still my turn, and I don't think I can fill up the next 10 turns

	14-05-2004 09:05									#117
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

-JR,

Tuesday has come and gone and it's your usual Friday Night MP Social Club next on the agenda. Maybe you can get in some turns beforehand...if you can get someone else to get supplies.

Monk

	14-05-2004 18:04									#118
	Full PM-box? Change here!

O Bloody One --

I'm two turns into Lazy Summer, which requires a lot of attention to both the rules and the actual turns (1960, with nukes, stealth, and -- given our build-queue restrictions -- some really nasty Greeks). Planning to stay with it for at least 5 turns, so please consider me to be on the bench in this free-for-all.

	14-05-2004 18:27									#119
	Got spare money?

Probably a good idea , as you are about to be up in Scorched Earth to finish off the game (I have played my five turns, and hope to post the log and save game tonight...though no promises, my log is another long one, and seeing as it seems that you are in no hurry to get the game, it might take me until tomorrow to post the save and log).

	14-05-2004 20:50									#120
	Remove this text

How about you, Sparrowhawk?? Want to Romp around a bit?? Having just begun an invasion, a Raptor's Claw should find much to grasp.

Monk